What a tracer should look like (before spazzing just look).

[ATAG_Bliss]

Originally Posted by yellonet

Has anyone even bothered to watch the video I linked to?
So that we know that we are talking about the same effect.

yellonet,

Yes I have. Seen it before some time ago. But that slowed down video in no way, shape, or form represents anything close to what your naked eye sees with regards to tracer rounds. That's why there's this huge retarded argument in the 1st place. Everyone thinks tracers look like either what they see with a video or old gun cam footage and they simply don't. The camera is creating that effect. About the only time you can trust video footage is if both the camera and the weapon are stationary and/or it's a modern digital video recorder. Even then, streaks of light are much longer than what your eye will see them as. This is why modern electronic weapons use image stabilization to try and create a "float" effect with regards to how the weapons IR/VIS cameras are non-isolated, compared to a solid fixed mount that you would stare out of the optics with. Before imagestab was created, just watching a gunner screen (monitor) would make you have a headache with all the shaking around of the image. Imagestab is a huge improvement, but absolutely nothing like the ability of the water/flesh suspension system are bodies have for stabilizing an image.

[yellonet]

Originally Posted by SYN_Bliss

yellonet,

Yes I have. Seen it before some time ago. But that slowed down video in no way, shape, or form represents anything close to what your naked eye sees with regards to tracer rounds. That's why there's this huge retarded argument in the 1st place. Everyone thinks tracers look like either what they see with a video or old gun cam footage and they simply don't. The camera is creating that effect. About the only time you can trust video footage is if both the camera and the weapon are stationary and/or it's a modern digital video recorder. Even then, streaks of light are much longer than what your eye will see them as. This is why modern electronic weapons use image stabilization to try and create a "float" effect with regards to how the weapons IR/VIS cameras are non-isolated, compared to a solid fixed mount that you would stare out of the optics with. Before imagestab was created, just watching a gunner screen (monitor) would make you have a headache with all the shaking around of the image. Imagestab is a huge improvement, but absolutely nothing like the ability of the water/flesh suspension system are bodies have for stabilizing an image.

The human eye have the equivalent shutter speed of 1/60 s.
If you set a video camera to record with that shutter speed it should result in video that shows approximately what one would see in person.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by yellonet

The human eye have the equivalent shutter speed of 1/60 s.
If you set a video camera to record with that shutter speed it should result in video that shows approximately what one would see in person.

that, with respect, is just plain wrong... the MKI Eyeball has no shutter and sees in fluid capture.

you run a CRT monitor refreshrate at (min) 60 Hz and FPS (similar to a shutter but in reverse, to avoid getting eyestrain/ headache from the flickering screen

Originally Posted by SYN_Bliss

That's why the rounds start arcing to the eye under extreme forces. And this is evident in game.

actually, the stream will arc physically if the barrel tip is being moved about at a great manner, such as in deflection shooting, or "hosing" down a target with a GAU... but only in relation to the round fired immediately after (the same as "hosing" off the front path and seeing what the water stream does as the nozzle is moved about) But, in any case, the tracers still are straight and the round still flies straight (taking into account, as mentioned earlier, gravity, projectile launch power, and atmospheric conditions)

[yellonet]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

that, with respect, is just plain wrong... the MKI Eyeball has no shutter and sees in fluid capture.

Yes. That's why I said equivalent of shutterspeed...

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

you run a CRT monitor refreshrate at (min) 60 Hz and FPS (similar to a shutter but in reverse, to avoid getting eyestrain/ headache from the flickering screen

And 60 Hz is used as that is the limit of human "shutterspeed", 1/60 s.

[yellonet]

The thing is that under the right circumstances the light streak will bend. And as with all tracer streaks it's not really happening but is only an illusion that occurs in the eye of the beholder so to speak.

No one is talking about bullet trajectory - the trajectory could be straight as a laser, the discussed effect would still occur.

And unless you have experience flying an aircraft and firing loads of tracers in sharp turns any amount of firing tracers from fixed positions will not get you to observe the phenomenon, so that experience is for this discussion completely inconsequential.

I for one would really like to see the effect in the game as it would probably look really good from external views.

[Wolf_Rider]

There is no "equivalent" to shutterspeed or anything like your train of thought there, yellonet, for the human eye. The human eye does not have a shutter.
All that lovely flowing milk, etc, you see in tv adverts, is usually shot at up around 300 ~ 500 frames/ second and sync'd.
Light doesn't bend, except supposedly under extreme magnetic influence... you're confusing afterimage in relation to the eye and the round's velocity... as for the human eye can following the round, I have seen Samurai slice an oncoming bullet in half with a katana but that is in an exceptional circumstance after dedicated training.

the tracer streak doesn't bend, twist, distort or anything, yellonet... the stream does, but not the individual streaks

[yellonet]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

There is no "equivalent" to shutterspeed or anything like your train of thought there, yellonet, for the human eye. The human eye does not have a shutter.
All that lovely flowing milk, etc, you see in tv adverts, is usually shot at up around 300 ~ 500 frames/ second and sync'd.
Light doesn't bend, except supposedly under extreme magnetic influence... you're confusing afterimage in relation to the eye and the round's velocity... as for the human eye can following the round, I have seen Samurai slice an oncoming bullet in half with a katana but that is in an exceptional circumstance after dedicated training.

Ugh, I don't know why I have to say this as I thought it was quite evident that I just used the "shutter speed" as a metaphor to explain how quick changes the eye/brain can register.
Of course the eye has no shutter.
But regarding this discussion, watching a tracer filmed with a shutterspeed of 1/60 should look similar to what one would see in person.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

the tracer streak doesn't bend, twist, distort or anything, yellonet... the stream does, but not the individual streaks

It does bend. How would the "stream" bend but not the individual streaks?
That could only happen if the streaks where physical rigid objects sticking out of the bullet. Which the streaks are not.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by yellonet

Yes. That's why I said equivalent of shutterspeed...

And 60 Hz is used as that is the limit of human "shutterspeed", 1/60 s.

how do you see that the "And 60 Hz is used as that is the limit of human "shutterspeed", 1/60 s."? because the human eye, does not have a shutter speed (fixed or variable) - it doesn't have a shutter, it doesn't have an FPS either (where it has to draw images to the brain at 60Hz)




winny...
recognise that bullet stream is bending not the tracers @ 0:55 (in the vid) identical to COD

[winny]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

how do you see that the "And 60 Hz is used as that is the limit of human "shutterspeed", 1/60 s."? because the human eye, does not have a shutter speed (fixed or variable) - it doesn't have a shutter, it doesn't have an FPS either (where it has to draw images to the brain at 60Hz)




winny...
recognise that bullet stream is bending not the tracers @ 0:55 (in the vid) identical to COD

I'll have a look..
But I have already taken frames from the same video and drawn straight lines through the tracer and the vast majority are, when the camera is moving, very slightly curved, try it. Some are very curved btw.

I didn't just wake up one morning and think that I wanted to upset the banana forum, I did some research first.

I really don't want to continue repeating myself either, I imagine everyone is sick of me already! I am!

(I'm off to look for a Raaaid thread.. much more fun)

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by yellonet

I didn't think it needed explanation as it is quite obvious, except for you, that I did not say that the the eye has no shutter, camera functions were just used as an analogy.
If I had meant that the eye had a shutter I would have said "the eye has a shutter".
But talk all you want the eye still has the limitations as I've said before.

Originally Posted by yellonet

Yes. That's why I said equivalent of shutterspeed...


And 60 Hz is used as that is the limit of human "shutterspeed", 1/60 s.

Hmmmm....

Originally Posted by yellonet

So, what's your point here? Are you saying that there's a difference between different light sources when it comes the the discussed effect?

the velocity difference and length of burn time between a rounds tracer and a sparkler.



People need to keep in mind that a movie camera takes a "snapshot" every 1/25 of a second or so (depending on camera), so, if that camera is "shaking" (even minimally) it takes the "snapshot" at different aspects of the subject, hence the "zig-zagging" of guncam footage... both WWII and the more modern helicopter mounted GAU in the popular (in this thread) YouTube.