A pilot compares cockpits between the Spitfire and the 109

[bobbysocks]

TURNING ( ya bored yet??...didnt think so ) a few german views at the end..

Jeffrey Quill wrote of his combat experience whilst flying with No. 65 Squadron:

Nearly all our engagements with Me 109s took place at around 20,000 - 25,000 ft. The Spitfire had the edge over them in speed and climb, and particularly in turning circle. (...) One engagement with several Me 109s at about 25,000 ft over the Channel sticks in my memory. It all happened very suddenly; in fact we were mildly 'bounced' and soon I found myself behind two 109s in a steep left-hand turn. I was able to turn inside the second one and fired at him from close range. He went on pulling round as sharply as he could. I followed him without any difficulty and went on firing bursts at him. There were puffs of black smoke and then a trail of white vapour streamed from his aircraft. By this time I could no longer see the first 109 and then realized that he was on my tail. As I was by now just shuddering on the verge of a g-stall, I quickly turned inwards and dived. I pulled up again when I was sure I had shaken him off... I was pleased with that little episode – partly because I was damn sure that the first 109 was not going to get home and also because I was now convinced that the Spitfire Mk I could readily out-turn the 109, certainly in the 20,000 ft region and probably at all heights. 75

F/Lt Al Deere (NZ), with No. 54 Squadron during the Battle of Britain, commented:

My experience over Dunkirk had taught me that when attacked the best counter was to go into a right turn. In this manoeuvre, the Spitfire was infinitely superior to the Messerschmitt, and so long as one remained in the turn, the enemy pilot could not bring his guns to bear. And this I did, as the German pilot flashed past, turning as he did so to get behind me. But it was I who finished astern of him. The rest was easy. 76

F/Sgt William H. Franklin of No. 65 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 25 June 1940:

65 Squadron on offensive patrol North of Abbeville sighted about 12 ME.109 at about 15,000 feet. We attacked per section, I was Blue 2. An enemy aircraft circled on to my sections tail and I broke away to engage, but Blue 3 got there before me. I was then attacked by 2 enemy aircraft, and turned sharply to get on the tail of one. I manoevured into position on his tail and fired a very short burst at about 200 yards. Enemy aircraft burst into flames and dived vertically. I was now engaged by second enemy aircraft. I manoevured onto his tail, as 2 other enemy aircraft attacked me from the rear. I broke away and after considerable manoevuring we had lost height to 4000 feet. One Me.109 again attacked from behind but I was able to turn slightly and get on his tail. I followed him as he turned and seeing me closing on him he half rolled. This brought the other two aircraft out of position for attack on me. I followed inside the first enemy aircraft and fired two very short bursts at about 250 yards and I saw enemy aircraft dive into the ground. 77

F/LT John Ellis of No. 610 may have learned from Deere's experience, recording in his Combat Report for 24 July 1940:

I was the leader of 610 Sqdn. which was sent to attack e/a attacking shipping N. of Margate on 24/7/40. The Squadron left Hawkinge at 1230 and climbed through 3,000 ft of cloud which was down to 400' over the aerodrome. We came out of the cloud over Margate and as we had penetrated the cloud by sections I gave orders for the sections to rendezvous over the convoy which was 5 miles N. Margate. While circling the Convoy Green 1 called me up to say he was on my starboard beam and below. I sighted green section immediately but at the same time saw three Me 109's diving down in vic to attack them so I gave orders for green section to do a tight a turn as possible to the right this they did and successfully evaded the enemy who had just commenced to open fire as they turned. Blue Section immediately attacked the 109's which broke up two diving down and one climbing. I attacked the one that climbed, closed to 250 yds and fired two bursts of roughly 6 seconds closing eventually to 50 yds. The e/a was enveloped in black & white smoke after the first burst and it eventually rolled on its side and dived straight down and crashed into the sea eight miles N.N.E. Margate. This is confirmed by F/O Wilson & Sgt Arnfield. 78

P/O Art Donahue, an American serving with No 64 Squadron, described his 8 August combat with a Me 109:

Then one got on my tail and gave me a burst just as I saw him, and I laid over into a vertical turn; and as he did likewise, following me, I hauled my Spitfire around as tight as I could. We were going fast and I had to lean forward and hold my breath to keep from blacking out, and I turned this way for several seconds. Then I eased my turn so that I could straighten up and look out my cockpit, and I spotted the other in front of me. I had turned around on his tail now. He apparently became aware of it at the same time, for he abandoned his turn and took to flight; but he was a little late now. 79

P/O D. Hastings of No. 74 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 11-8-40:

I was Red No. 3 of No. 74 Squadron on patrol over Dover at about 24,000 feet. A.A. fire at 25,000 feet gave indication of bandits, and I saw 8 fighters to port. Red leader gave chase and dived after M.E. 109. I followed in line astern, Red Leader dived to about 5,000 feet towards the French coast. As no further E/A were near I went to the aid of a Spitfire who was engaging another M.E. 109, but which had a further M.E. 109 on its tail. I engaged the later E/A and gave it a 2 seconds burst at 300 yards range which immediately caused him to cease fire and he broke away to starboard. I followed him round and gave two 4 seconds deflection shots, this caused a stream of white liquid to pour from him. I then broke off as another M.E. 109 was closing in on my tail and firing at about 250 yards range.
I found that with full throttle and 2800 revs. I did a steep climbing turn to starboard which easily out-turned the M.E. 109. They had the usual silver grey camouflage and black crosses and were apparently working in pairs. 80

F/O William Nelson D.F.C., an American in the R.C.A.F. and serving with No. 74 Squadron, recorded in his Combat Report for 11-8-40:

I was yellow 3 in No. 74 Squadron, on patrol over Dover at about 24,000 feet and sighted 8 M.E. 109s's to port. My leader suddenly dived on one ME 109, so I circled looking for any E/A coming down on our section. While climbing and turning I saw 6 M.E. 109's at 28,000 feet who obviously did not see me, they were circling widely so I climbed onto the last E/A. I was sighted and they started turning steeply, I easily out-turned them. They all broke up and the last E/A flich-rolled away from me, I closed rapidly and at the short range of 150 yards I opened fire with a 3 seconds burst dead astern, and he burst into flames. I immediately turned quickly away and saw the remainder E/A speeding for home, well away. Not seeing any further E/A I pancaked Manston. The M.E. 109's were sky - blue beneath and ordinary camouflaged above with black crosses. 81

F/Sgt William H. Franklin of 65 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report of 16 August 1940:

The squadron was operating from Manston and ordered to patrol Deal at 16.17 hours. We first sighted numbers of enemy fighters high above and climbed to engage. I suddenly found myself passing straight through a compact formation of about 24 Heinkel 113. Two end He.113's engaged me firing deflection shots. The shooting was bad, all going astern, and it struck me that they could not turn very quickly. In the ensuing fight I had no difficulty in firing a short burst from astern which sent one e/a down in flames. The others vanished. I ended in mid-channel and after a few minutes saw below me a Dornier 17 followed by a Me.109 well astern going towards France. I dived from about 20,000 feet down to 6,000 feet and closing in, fired a good burst from astern into the Do.17. It blew out grey smoke from both motors and bits came off the fuselage. I then had to attend to the Me.109 which dived towards Inglevert aerodrome. At 1,500 feet I fired a 3 second slight deflection shot and the e/a crashed into the ground off Inglevert. I then returned to base. 82

S/P Andrew McDowall, flying with No. 602 Squadron, recorded his opinion in his Combat Report for 18 August 1940:

In this dogfight I was able to get a long burst at one Me 109 and saw it crash into the sea... In my opinion Me 109's cannot hit Spitfires in tight right hand turn because they can't turn inside you in stern attack. 83

Sgt N. Ramsay of No. 610 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 26 August 1940:

I was Green 2, and we were flying at 12,000 feet when the leading section dived to attack some E/A over Folkestone. My leader saw aircraft above and did not follow down. He ordered 'line astern' and started turning in a circle. I saw E/A coming down at different angles, one came down astern with me. I turned very steeply to the left, and eventually got on to his tail, he started turning left and right and I fired three short bursts. On the last burst he emitted a cloud of black smoke and started spiralling down very fast. As he went down the smoke ceased and he vanished into the cloud looking very much out of control. I did not go through the cloud immediately because I wanted to see if there were any more E/A near me. There were some above, but I decided they were too high so I went through the clouds and saw an E/A blazing on the ground West of Folkestone. 84

P/O Ronald Berry of 603 Squadron used the Spitfire's turning ability to transition from evasion to attack, recording in his Combat Report for 28 August 1940:

When approximately over Dover, the Squadron split up on sighting several Me.109s. Looking above 3 Me.109's crossed my bow in line astern. Shortly after, on my beam. Me.109 was firing and I immediately whipped up my aircraft and round and found myself on his tail, and at close range pumped lead into it until it opened into a heavy cloud of smoke. On turning again, another Me.109 was attacking from quarter astern. I steep turned to the right and got on his tail and he dived. I followed him and attacked, some bits fell off from E/A. As my ammunition was expended, I broke off combat and returned to base. 85

Sgt R. Hamlyn of 610 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 30 August 1940:

I was Green Leader. I first sighted enemy aircraft over Ashford and started to attack them but a number of M.E. 110's attacked me before I could open fire. So I eventually fired at one of the M.E's. He fell away from the rest, but I could not possibly see any result owing to the other enemy aircraft. On returning to base at 1,000 ft I noticed more aircraft bombing Biggin Hill. I at once climbed up to about 20,000 ft and was attacked by 5 M.E. 109's which were circling. Owing to my slow speed I was easily able to get on the tail of the last 109. I fired a burst of about 2 seconds from astern with slight deflection. He fell away from the others smoking badly. I followed him and gave him the rest of my rounds in one burst. He went straight in the ground. I came down to the place I thought I had seen him hit and there was a large fire burning in the wood round West Malling aerodrome. 86

Sgt B. Douthwaite, of 72 Squadron, recorded on his Combat Report for 2 September:

I then turned to port and attacked an Me 109 who was turning steeply to port. I could easily out turn him and fired until he broke away in a steep left hand dive. As I had expended my ammunition I did not follow him but returned to Hawkinge. 87

S/L Brian Lane, of No. 19 Squadron, got into a tight turning fight with an Me 109 on 15 September 1940:

That German pilot certainly knew how to a handle a 109 - I have never seen one thrown about as that one was, I felt certain that his wings would come off at any moment. However, they stayed on, and he continued to lead me a hell of a dance as I strove to get my sights on him again. Twice I managed to get in a short burst but I don't think I hit him, then he managed to get round towards my tail. Pulling hard round I started to gain on him, and began to come round towards his tail. He was obviously turning as tightly as his kite could and I could see that his slots were open, showing he was nearly stalled. His ailerons were obviously snatching too, as first one wing and then the other would dip violently. Giving the Spitfire best, he suddenly flung out of the turn and rolled right over on his back passing in front of me inverted. ...he flew on inverted for several seconds, giving me the chance to get in a good burst from the quarter. 88

F/S George Unwin, also of No. 19 Squadron, recalled his combat of 15 September:

Anyway I went into a tight turn and stayed in it and there, I don't know how many of these aircraft there were, I shot at several of them as they went through my sights but I actually shot two of them down. One of them strangely enough, I fired at the first one, I got the first one, and he bailed out. And of course the Messerschmitt pilot unfortunately sat on his tank, did you know that? He sat on his petrol tank and it wasn't a very, if they got a bullet there - up it went. This chap bailed out and I went to sight the next one, when suddenly the light - the reflector sight was an electric bulb lit up, and the bloody bulb failed. So I am without a sight but we did have this ammunition so the next one I got, I was still in a tight turn all the time, I mean, that was what probably saved me, you kept on turning and turning. Because the Messerschmitt couldn't turn like a Spitfire and I kept on turning, I don't know how many aircraft there were and the second I shot down without a sight. It was really wild and, you know, the fall off on the trace of a bullet and I got him exactly the same way, his tank went up but that frightened me I can tell you. I was all on my own in the middle of, I don't know how many, how many Messerschmitts there were but fortunately, as I say, I got away with it. I didn't even get a hole in me that day and yet against the odd ones I have several times got holes in me, but that day I got away with it. I must have had a guardian angel with me that day. 89

Unwin, also recounted:

I had survived this mission simply because the Spitfire could sustain a continuous rate of turn inside the BF 109E without stalling - the latter was known for flicking into a vicious stall spin without prior warning if pulled too tightly. The Spitfire would give a shudder to signal it was close to the edge, so as soon as you felt the shake you eased off the stick pressure.

F/Lt J. W. Villa of No 72 Squadron recorded on his Combat Report for 15 September:

The ME 109 which I attacked half rolled as I opened fire and before he could dive away he caught fire and exploded. I was then attacked by five other ME 109. I did a steep turn to starboard and continued to turn until I out turned one ME 109 which was on my tail. I gave him two short bursts and he burst into flames. 90

Geoffrey Wellum of No 92 Squadron found himself in quite a fix after expending all his ammunition shooting down an HE-111:

I've behaved like a beginner, bounced from behind. My own fault, shouldn't have relaxed after I'd finished with that bloody Heinkel. Elementary rule number one: never relax vigilance. I asked for it and got caught napping, well and truly bounced...

Looking back over my shoulder, an Me 109 is sitting on my tail not thirty yards away, or so it seems, and turning with me. I see the flash from his cannons and puffs of greyish smoke as he tries a quick burst. Not a bad one either as I hear more hits somewhere behind the fuselage.

The German pilot is trying to tighten his turn still more to keep up with me and I'm sure I see the 109 flick. You won't do it, mate, we're on the limit as it is. I can see his head quite clearly and even the dark shape of his oxygen mask. Yet again I imagine that the 109 gives a distinct flick, on the point of a high speed stall. He has to ease his turn a fraction. The Spitfire gains slowly. I exalt and yell at him. Sweat starts to get into my eyes...

The 109 finally comes out of his turn and pulls up, trying to gain height on me. As he climbs he goes into another steep turn, very steep, well over the vertical. I look up at him but he has made his effort and failed. I've gained too much and now I'm more behind him than he is behind me...

If you want to shake someone off your tail you have to fly your Spitfire to its limits. In a tight turn you increase the G loading to such an extent that the wings can no longer support the weight and the plane stalls, with momentary loss of control. However, in a Spitfire, just before the stall, the whole aircraft judders, it's a stall warning, if you like. With practice and experience you can hold the plane on this judder in a very tight turn. You never actually stall the aircraft and you don't need to struggle to regain control because you never lose it. A 109 can't stay with you. 91

P/O George Bennions, of No 41 Squadron, demonstrated that the Spitfire was especially effective against the Me 109 when the turn was combined with a steep climb:

As Mitor Red 2 in line astern of Red 1 while acting as rear guard to blue and green sections, I noticed 2 ME 109's above and to the right diving to attack Red 1. I warned Red 1 and we turned right to evade them. We then turned left behind them to engage them. Half way around the turn I noticed another ME 109 about 800 yards astern and to the left. I immediately went into a steep right hand climbing turn at full throttle. The ME 109 tried to follow but after about 2 turns he fell out of the turn completely stalled, and I turned down on his tail. He carried out a left hand climbing turn and he ded S.E. at full throttle. I immediately closed astern but slightly left and opened fire at approx 100 yards. After two very short bursts I observed coolant pouring from the radiator... 92

Leading Blue Section I was attacked by ME 109. After a steep right hand climbing turn the ME 109 with a Yellow nose fell out of the turn and I turned on to his tail. He rolled over and went vertically downwards and pulled out heading south east as soon as he straightened up. I gave him three short bursts. He burst into flames and after knocking off his roof bailed out. 93

Evidently Bennions was well schooled in tactics arising from the RAE's comparative trials, where it was determined that:

Another effective form of evasion with the Spitfire was found to be a steep, climbing spiral at 120 mph, using +6 1/4 boost and 2,650 rpm; in this manoeuvre, the Spitfire gained rapidly on the ME 109, eventually allowing the pilot to execute a half roll, on to the tail of his opponent. 94

Sgt. Jack Stokoe of No 603 Squadron found the Me 109s to be vulnerable when they tried to use the spiral climb as an evasion, recording in his Combat Report of 31 August 1940:

We were ordered to patrol base at 12,000 feet. As I was rather late, the formation took off without me. I took off alone, climbed into the sun, and rejoined the formation which was circling at about 28,000 feet. I observed 2 Me 109s above, and climbed after them in full fine pitch. The ME's kept close together in a steep spiral climb towards the sun. I pumped several bursts at the outside one from about 200 yards with little effect. I closed to 50 yards and fired two more long bursts. Black smoke poured from his engine which appeared to catch fire, and 8 or 9 huge pieces of his fuselage were shot away. He spun steeply away and crashed inside the balloon barrage. I continued climbing after the other ME 109, and fired two long bursts from about 150 yards. White smoke came from his aircraft, and he spiralled gently downwards. I broke away as I was out of ammunition, and failed to see what happened to him. 95

P/O J. G. Drummond of 92 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 24 September 1940:

As leader of Blue Section 92 Squadron we intercepted enemy aircraft South of Estuary in the Maidstone area. I did a beam attack on the rear Section of Ju. 88's from below and right and fired a 3 second burst and hit the Port engine. After breaking away from the 88 I did a steep turn and found 3 Me. 109's on my tail. I turned on to the tail of the rear Me. 109 and fired a 5 second burst at about 300 yards from the quarter. Clouds of white smoke indicated that I had hit his glycol. I turned round and fired at another 109 which was on my tail. I saw my bullets hit the enemy aircraft. I then broke away and dived for the ground. 96

P/O D. C. Winter of No. 72 Squadron used a descending spiral turn as an effective evasive:

Then six more Me 109's came down on me & as I turned port an He 113 pulled up in front of me & I had a good bead for about 2 secs. during which time I was firing. The He 113 turned over & dived seawards... By then I was being attacked by six more Me 109 & by doing steep spiral turns I managed to avoid their fire. After awhile I saw the He 113 I had shot at, plane down into the water & sink about 2-3 miles off Beachy Head. This was confirmed by Red 3. Meanwhile I was still spiralling steeply & the Me 109's followed me down to about 1,000 ft & then I got down to about 50 ft & they left me. It was impossible to get a bead on them owing to their numbers. 97

Sgt P. Else of No. 610 Squadron also used a diving turn to good effect, recording in his Combat Report for 25 July 1940:

I was flying No. 2 position in Blue section when we sighted about 20 or more Me 109's above about 12 JU 87. We climbed in line astern to attack the ME and fired at one with considerable deflection with no result. I then had to shake off one Me 109 off my tail which I did with comparative ease with a tight diving turn. I then found myself on the edge of the mellee and slightly on the starboard rear beam of two ME 109's flying in line astern.
I attacked the rear machine from the quarter closing to astern opening fire at 200 yds and closing at about 25 yds. I could see the explosive bullets from my guns hitting him in the rear of the fuselage and the tail unit.
As I broke off the attack owing to the danger of hitting him he fell on one side, evidently from the attitude the machine had adopted, out of control. Both Me 109's took no evasive action at all, as I caught them both by surprise. The Me 109's were definitely working in pairs. I also saw one Me 109 shot down by F/Lt Ellis. 98

P/O Colin Gray (later Group Captain) of No. 54 Squadron reflected:

The problem of manoeuvrability was of prime importance in enabling one to turn inside the enemy, certainly in fighter versus fighter combats, and thus to get a shot in when on attack, or avoid being shot down when on the defensive - and here the British aircraft had a decided advantage in my experience. 99

F/O Hugh Dundas, with No. 616 during the Battle, wrote:

In one vital aspect the ME109 was at a disadvantage against the British airplanes. It could be out-turned both by the Spitfire and the Hurricane. This was a serious handicap to the Luftwaffe pilots allotted the duty of providing close escort for the bombers. Their freedom of action was curtailed. They could not pursue the tactic, best suited to their planes, of a high-speed attack followed by dive and zoom. They had to stick around and fight it out; and that involved the matching of turning circles. They never found a way round that problem and their difficulties were made all the greater when Goering, infuriated by the losses inflicted on his bombers, ordered the fighter squadrons to cling ever closer to the bombers they were escorting. 100

Adolf Galland recalled a conversation with Göring in August 1940:

I tried to tell him otherwise, replying that the Spitfire was better able to reduce speed, because of its lower wing loading. It was also better able to turn at low speeds. 101

Heinz Knoke was still flying a Me 109 E4 with II/JG 52 over England in May 1941 when he wrote of the Spitfires he encountered:

The bastards can make such infernally tight turns; there seems to be no way of nailing them. 102

The War Diary of I/JG 3 entry for 31 August 1940 states:

The Spitfires turn very well even at higher altitudes and tighter than the Bf 109. 103