Spit1a > SpitII

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Osprey

Let me be quite clear. I'm not interested in bigging up the Spitfire, I just want a sim as close to how it was as possible. I don't think you share that agenda and unfortunately it is types like you who will batter 1C and spoil it.

OK, let me be clear too.

I was a beta tester of the origianal Il-2. Ever since I am following this series, and contributed to it with work and date, as well as testing. And you?

As for the FM models, I don't really care who's bigging up. All I do is providing the historical data from my collection, for free, and the devs do whatever they want with it. Hopefully what they will do with it is modelling the planes as accurately as possible after every country's own specs, if these are available, rather than according to foreign testing papers of often semi-functioning, crashlanded junks. Fanboys of course won't be happy it with in any time, they will want only the "bestest" versions and forget the realities life, like you do.

This report, which I consider rather unscientific, is pre-BoB because all fighting Spits had CSP and 100 octane for the BoB. Perhaps it would be easier for you to prove to us that this tested Spitfire was using 100 octane? Even if it were the report does say that it has a two stage prop and that's enough for us to know that it has inferior performance.

The Rechlin paper, which was forwarded to all German fighter units was - IMHO rather useful - a tactical advice for fighter pilots based on the available information and strenghts and weaknesses of enemy types derived from testing. It should be useful in the game against the same type of aircraft, ie. 2 pitch Spits and Hurris, but some other advice is valid for improved types, too.

As for the all of them had the best stuff etc. I consider it wishful thinking and without evidence. As far as CSPs go we know that they just started to be retrofitted at start of the battle, and the process wasn't about finished until mid-August, so yes, you could definietely meet up with two-pitch in July 1940, early in the battle. As for 100 octane, it was done to death. No evidence or documentation was ever presented by anyone, that would specifically say that all aircraft are using 100 octane, or even all aircraft are planned to use 100 octane. All we know is that the original early 1939 plans called for 16 fighter and 2 blenheim bomber sqns. to be provided with 100 octane by September 1940.The high octane stuff was introduced to select fighter (and some Blenheim bomber) stations in spring of 1940, from which it follows that not all had it. We also have evidence that further conversion of units was stopped in May 1940 due to concerns of overseas supply, especially as the Germans were sinking tankers at an alarming rate, and all 100 octane came from overseas; we also know that the conversion continued, and was finished later in the automn. We also know that about 2/3s to 3/4 of the avgas consumed in the BoB was 87 octane. We also know that there's evidence for about 1/3 of the fighter stations for 100 octane used, predominantly Sector stations and in 11 Group. Everything else is just a wet dream at the currently available evidence.

So I am patiently waiting for someone to post a primary document that would say that all Squadrons are using 100 octane. Until that happens, I consider it wishful and baseless, and contradicted by evidence.

As for the Rechlin tested Spitfire. You claimed that all Spits had 100 octane. Would it not be strange for the Germans, to capture a plane with 100 octane fuel in its tanks, and then test it with something else than 100 octane fuel, when they had plenty of supply of that, both captured stocks and their own production of high grade C-3 fuel..?
Of course, they may have operated it on 87 octane, but that would only make sense if the plane they captured also had 87 octane in its tanks when it was captured..

100 octane and a CSP makes the Spitfire a different animal.

Yup.

That is the animal the 109's faced, not the example you cited.

So, how come the Germans captured one in such condition.. if it did not exist, as you say?

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

OK, let me be clear too.

The Rechlin paper, which was forwarded to all German fighter units was - IMHO rather useful - a tactical advice for fighter pilots based on the available information and strenghts and weaknesses of enemy types derived from testing. It should be useful in the game against the same type of aircraft, ie. 2 pitch Spits and Hurris, but some other advice is valid for improved types, too.

+1

This shld hve some influence on the way they fighted and it's easy to see how they applied those recommendations in combat report.

On the contrary comments of the type : "I start climbing to evade him" or " I give chase to this 109 knowing that my plane was faster on deck" ... I never read anything like this untill the MkIX came out.

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

As for the all of them had the best stuff etc. I consider it wishful thinking and without evidence. As far as CSPs go we know that they just started to be retrofitted at start of the battle, and the process wasn't about finished until mid-August, so yes, you could definietely meet up with two-pitch in July 1940, early in the battle. As for 100 octane, it was done to death. No evidence or documentation was ever presented by anyone, that would specifically say that all aircraft are using 100 octane, or even all aircraft are planned to use 100 octane. All we know is that the original early 1939 plans called for 16 fighter and 2 blenheim bomber sqns. to be provided with 100 octane by September 1940.The high octane stuff was introduced to select fighter (and some Blenheim bomber) stations in spring of 1940, from which it follows that not all had it. We also have evidence that further conversion of units was stopped in May 1940 due to concerns of overseas supply, especially as the Germans were sinking tankers at an alarming rate, and all 100 octane came from overseas; we also know that the conversion continued, and was finished later in the automn. We also know that about 2/3s to 3/4 of the avgas consumed in the BoB was 87 octane. We also know that there's evidence for about 1/3 of the fighter stations for 100 octane used, predominantly Sector stations and in 11 Group. Everything else is just a wet dream at the currently available evidence.

As for the Rechlin tested Spitfire. You claimed that all Spits had 100 octane. Would it not be strange for the Germans, to capture a plane with 100 octane fuel in its tanks, and then test it with something else than 100 octane fuel, when they had plenty of supply of that, both captured stocks and their own production of high grade C-3 fuel..?
Of course, they may have operated it on 87 octane, but that would only make sense if the plane they captured also had 87 octane in its tanks when it was captured..

Good post Kurf. I hope we will see more like this

[pupo162]

luftwhining and reDluving apart, thnaks for the posts both Kurfurst and Osprey. A very nice read.

[winny]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

OK, let me be clear too.


As for 100 octane, it was done to death. No evidence or documentation was ever presented by anyone, that would specifically say that all aircraft are using 100 octane, or even all aircraft are planned to use 100 octane. All we know is that the original early 1939 plans called for 16 fighter and 2 blenheim bomber sqns. to be provided with 100 octane by September 1940.The high octane stuff was introduced to select fighter (and some Blenheim bomber) stations in spring of 1940, from which it follows that not all had it. We also have evidence that further conversion of units was stopped in May 1940 due to concerns of overseas supply, especially as the Germans were sinking tankers at an alarming rate, and all 100 octane came from overseas; we also know that the conversion continued, and was finished later in the automn. We also know that about 2/3s to 3/4 of the avgas consumed in the BoB was 87 octane. We also know that there's evidence for about 1/3 of the fighter stations for 100 octane used, predominantly Sector stations and in 11 Group. Everything else is just a wet dream at the currently available evidence.

So I am patiently waiting for someone to post a primary document that would say that all Squadrons are using 100 octane. Until that happens, I consider it wishful and baseless, and contradicted by evidence.

As for the Rechlin tested Spitfire. You claimed that all Spits had 100 octane. Would it not be strange for the Germans, to capture a plane with 100 octane fuel in its tanks, and then test it with something else than 100 octane fuel, when they had plenty of supply of that, both captured stocks and their own production of high grade C-3 fuel..?
Of course, they may have operated it on 87 octane, but that would only make sense if the plane they captured also had 87 octane in its tanks when it was captured..



Yup.



So, how come the Germans captured one in such condition.. if it did not exist, as you say?

Stocks of 100 octane fuel as of April 1940


This document shows that by May 1940 all fighter command squadrons had recieved 100 octane fuel. Bomber Command had to wai till 1941 to be fully converted


100 octane conversions
611 squadron - 21/3/40

74 Squadron

602 Sqadron

North Weald

111 Squadron

Al Deere using +12 over Dunkirk - May 1940

Order for 100 octane fuel in 1938


I've also looked for Combat reports from May - July 1940 that mention +12lb
I counted 30 different squadrons that have combat reports from that time frame and used +12lb boost.

The germans tested the Spitfire Mk1 with thier own fuel at Rechlin. This lead to slightly decreased performance and unreliable performance data.

[Ze-Jamz]

Again, very nice findings

This debate is getting quite interesting

[TomcatViP]

interestingly he gave chase to both Me110 using emergency power (12LB).

[lane]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

interestingly he gave chase to both Me110 using emergency power (12LB).

Well, as Air Chief Marshal Dowding put it

The use of the automatic boost cut out control enables the pilot to get an emergency boost of + 12 lbs. per sq.in. from the engine for 5 minutes when circumstances demand it. Some pilots “pull the plug” with little excuse on every occasion.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by winny

This document shows that by May 1940 all fighter command squadrons had recieved 100 octane fuel. Bomber Command had to wai till 1941 to be fully converted
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...-100octane.jpg

Nope, it says the "The Units concerned" are now stocked. It means some, but now all. Otherwise the distinction is about the 'units concerned' makes no sense.
Probably the same 16+2 Squadrons that were discussed earlier.

And, if you read the preceeding documents, not just the ones you find on the site, you will notice that bomber units concerned (3 stations) had priority.

100 octane conversions
611 squadron - 21/3/40
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no611-100oct.jpg
74 Squadron
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no74-100oct.jpg
602 Sqadron
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/6...-100octane.jpg
North Weald
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...rb-16feb40.jpg
111 Squadron
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...100-octane.jpg
Al Deere using +12 over Dunkirk - May 1940
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/deere-26-5-40.jpg
Order for 100 octane fuel in 1938
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...octanefuel.jpg

That's nice and valid evidence for about half a dozen Squadrons out of about 50-60 participating the Battle.

I've also looked for Combat reports from May - July 1940 that mention +12lb
I counted 30 different squadrons that have combat reports from that time frame and used +12lb boost.

The problem is that it was fighter stations that were stocked with fuel, not "Squadrons". A Squadron is just a bunch of men and planes. It can't store fuel. Airfields and Stations can.

Now as it goes a number of Stations were supplied with high octane fuel. The Squadrons stationed there could use it. But the Squadrons themselves continously rotated amongst stations, so its difficult to say how many Squadrons had access to it at a time.

For example, No 41 Sqn was at Catterick in May, but transferred to Hornchurch on 28 May, then back to Catterick on 8 June, then again back to Hornchurch on the 25 July, then beck to Catterick again until 2 September, and then again Hornchurch. The others did the same, or even more chaotically.

That makes things a bit difficult. If for example A station has 100 octane, B station doesn't, and we have X any Y Squadrons. Say X Sqn is at A station, reports +12 boost use. Then it transfers to B stations, and of course cannot report +12 boost use, because it doesn't have the fuel anymore at the Station. But Y takes it place at A station and also reports +12 boost use. It would seem that both X and Y Squadrons were using 100 octane during the period, whereas in reality only until they were at a given station.

A while ago the Grunch collected the Stations we know from one source or another to have used 100 octane (ie. they physically had it).

Originally Posted by TheGrunch

Cross-referencing references to +12lbs boost in combat reports with the dates that the squadron involved were stationed at certain airfields we can see that 100 octane fuel was available for certain at the following airfields from at least the following months:

RAF North Weald (11 Group) in February
RAF Drem (13 Group) in February
RAF Rochford (11 Group) in March
RAF Digby (12 Group) in March
RAF Hawkinge (11 Group) in May
RAF Hornchurch (11 Group) in May
RAF Tangmere (11 Group) in May
RAF Duxford (12 Group) in May
RAF Gravesend (11 Group) in June
RAF Catterick (12 Group) in June
RAF Biggin Hill (11 Group) in July
RAF Kenley (11 Group) in August
RAF Northolt (11 Group) in August
RAF Westhampnett (11 Group) in August
RAF Middle Wallop (10 Group) in August
RAF Leconfield (12 Group) in August
RAF Croydon (11 Group) in September
RAF Warmwell (10 Group) in September

to which I replied a while ago:

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Thanks for the above. This is exactly the kind of analytical approach that is useful for the community and mission builders. There's absolutely no doubt whatsoever that 100 octane was used on a significant scale by RAF fighters (and to some extent, BC's Blenheim Squadrons, two of them IIRC), however, lacking positive evidence we do not know the exact scale of this. IMHO its a waste of time to go back and forth into 'interpreting' the existing evidence, which is insufficent to make categoric statements. What we know is that it was used, and that +12 Spits/Hurris have a legit place in the sim of course. However I also wholeheartedly agree that given the numerous bugs that riddle the sim due to its too early release are absolute more important than FM issues or the addition of new types..

We need to know what Stations were supplied with 100 octane, and what Squadrons were based at them and when. Its a very large and certainly demanding work, but the results imho worth the effort.

Based on the current evidence (feel free to add new sources showing 100 octane at the said airfield during the Battle and I'll update the list) shows that 100 octane aviation spirit was supplied to

8 out of 19 Sector Airfields
9 out of 32 Fighter Airfields (however 7 of the 32 functioning as satellite airfield for rotation etc., with no Sqn permanently based there).

The below is a detailed list of Fighter Command Stations during the Battle of Britain.

I've marked the ones you listed above which show some kind of evidence of 100 octane fuel being supplied to them (usually Combat reports in the literature) with an underline. Coloring would be better but I am not sure how to this with this forum engine.

The following list of stations and associated Squadrons also give a fair idea about the extent of Squadron movements during the Battle, and how it complicates things..

The source is below.





via http://www.raf.mod.uk/Bob1940/stations.html

11 Group

Group Headquarters

11 Group Headquarters was based at RAF Uxbridge, the administratve centre. Also within the physical area of 11 Group and close to Uxbridge is RAF Bentley Priory, the Headquarters of Fighter Command during the Battle.

Sector Airfields

RAF Biggin Hill.

RAF Biggin Hill was home to the Biggin Hill Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 32 Squadron from 4 June 1940
No 79 Squadron from 5 June 1940
No 610 Squadron from 2 July 1940
No 79 Squadron from 27 August 1940
No 72 Squadron from 31 August 1940
No 92 Squadron from 8 September 1940
No 141 Squadron from 13 September to 18 September 1940
No 72 Squadron from 14 September 1940
No 74 Squadron from 15 October 1940

RAF Debden.

RAF Debden was home to the Debden Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 85 Squadron from 22 May 1940
No 17 Squadron from 19 June 1940
No 257 Squadron from 15 August 1940
No 601 Squadron from 19 August 1940
No 111 Squadron from 19 August 1940
No 17 Squadron from 2 September 1940
No 25 Squadron from 8 October 1940

RAF Hornchurch.

RAF Hornchurch was home to the Hornchurch Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 65 Squadron from 5 June 1940
No 74 Squadron from 25 June 1940
No 54 Squadron from 24 July 1940
No 41 Squadron from 26 July 1940
No 54 Squadron from 8 August 1940
No 266 Squadron from 14 August 1940
No 600 Squadron from 22 August 1940
No 264 Squadron from 22 August 1940
No 603 Squadron from 27 August 1940
No 41 Squadron from 3 September 1940

RAF Kenley.

RAF Kenley was home to the Kenley Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 615 Squadron from 20 May 1940
No 616 Squadron from 19 August 1940
No 253 Squadron from 29 August 1940
No 66 Squadron from 3 September 1940
No 501 Squadron from 10 September 1940
No 253 Squadron from 16 September 1940

RAF Northolt.

RAF Northolt was home to the Northolt Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 609 Squadron from 19 May 1940
No 257 Squadron from 4 July 1940
No 303 Squadron from 22 July 1940
No 43 Squadron from 23 July 1940 to 1 August 1940
No 1 Squadron from 1 August 1940
No 401 Squadron RCAF from Mid-August 1940
No 615 Squadron from 10 October 1940
No 302 Squadron from 11 October 1940

RAF North Weald.

RAF North Weald was home to the North Weald Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 151 Squadron from 20 May 1940
No 56 Squadron from 4 June 1940
No 25 Squadron from 1 September 1940
No 249 Squadron from 1 September 1940
No 257 Squadron from 8 October 1940

RAF Tangmere.

RAF Tangmere was home to the Tangmere Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 145 Squadron from 10 May 1940
No 43 Squadron from 31 May 1940
No 601 Squadron from 17 June 1940
No 1 Squadron from 23 June 1940
No 266 Squadron from 9 August 1940
No 17 Squadron from 19 August 1940
No 607 Squadron from 1 September 1940
No 601 Squadron from 2 September 1940
No 213 Squadron from 7 September 1940
No 145 Squadron from 9 October 1940


Fighter Airfields

RAF Croydon.

RAF Croydon was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 111 Squadron from 4 June 1940
No 501 Squadron from 21 June 1940
No 401 Squadron RCAF from July 1940
No 85 Squadron from 19 August 1940
No 72 Squadron from 1 September 1940
No 111 Squadron from 3 September 1940
No 605 Squadron from 7 September 1940

RAF Detling.

Detling was one of the 11 Group satellite airfields used by units on a day-to-day basis as required, often flights or squadrons would detach to such an airfield in the morning and return to their main operating and maintenance base in the evening.

RAF Eastchurch.

RAF Eastchurch was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 266 Squadron from 12 August 1940

RAF Ford.

RAF Ford was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 23 Squadron from 12 September 1940

RAF Gosport.

Gosport was, along with Lee-on-Solent, one of the Royal Navy's airfields used in the defence of Southampton and Portsmouth. Royal Navy fighters were permanently based there, and occasionally RAF units were detached, using the airfield in the same way as a satellite or relief landing ground.

RAF Gravesend.

RAF Gravesend was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 610 Squadron from 26 May 1940
No 604 Squadron from 3 July 1940
No 501 Squadron from 25 July 1940
No 66 Squadron from 11 September 1940

RAF Hawkinge.

RAF Hawkinge was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 79 Squadron from 2 July 1940

RAF Hendon.

RAF Hendon was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 257 Squadron from 17 May 1940
No 504 Squadron from 5 September 1940

RAF Lee on Solent.

Lee on Solent was, along with Gosport, one of the Royal Navy's airfields used in the defence of Southampton and Portsmouth. Royal Navy fighters were permanently based there, and occasionally RAF units were detached, using the airfield in the same way as a satellite or relief landing ground.

RAF Lympne.

Lympne was one of the 11 Group satellite airfields used by units on a day-to-day basis as required, often flights or squadrons would detach to such an airfield in the morning and return to their main operating and maintenance base in the evening. Due to the extreme forward position of this site it was under constant threat of attack and was not permanently manned during the Battle by any one Squadron.

RAF Manston.

RAF Manston was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 604 Squadron from 15 May 1940
No 600 Squadron from 20 June 1940

RAF Martlesham.

RAF Martlesham was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 25 Squadron from 19 June 1940
No 257 Squadron from 5 September 1940
No 17 Squadron from 8 October 1940

RAF Rochford.

RAF Rochford was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 54 Squadron from 25 June 1940
No 264 Squadron from 27 August 1940
No 264 Squadron from 29 October 1940

RAF Stapleford.

RAF Stapleford was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 151 Squadron from 29 August 1940
No 46 Squadron from 1 September 1940

RAF Thorney Island.

RAF Thorney Island was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 236 Squadron from 4 July 1940

RAF Westhampnett.

RAF Westhampnett was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 145 Squadron from 31 July 1940
No 602 Squadron from 13 August 1940

RAF West Malling.

RAF West Malling was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 141 Squadron from 12 July 1940
No 66 Squadron from 30 October 1940



10 Group

Group Headquarters

10 Group Headquarters was based at RAF Box, the administratve centre.

Sector Airfields

RAF Filton.

RAF Filton was home to the Filton Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 504 Squadron from 26 September 1940

RAF Middle Wallop.

RAF Middle Wallop was home to the Middle Wallop Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 236 Squadron from 14 June 1940
No 238 Squadron from 20 June 1940
No 401 Squadron RCAF from 21 June 1940
No 501 Squadron from 4 July 1940
No 609 Squadron from 5 July 1940
No 604 Squadron from 26 July 1940
No 222 Squadron from 13 August 1940
No 238 Squadron from 10 September 1940
No 23 Squadron from 12 September to 25 September 1940


Fighter Airfields

RAF Boscombe Down.

RAF Boscombe Down was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 249 Squadron from 14 August 1940
No 56 Squadron from 1 September 1940

RAF Colerne.

RAF Colerne was used as a satellite and relief airfield for Middle Wallop during the Battle, units rotated in and out of the station on a daily basis.

RAF Exeter.

RAF Exeter was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 213 Squadron from 18 June 1940
No 87 Squadron from 5 July 1940
No 601 Squadron from 7 September 1940

RAF Pembrey.

RAF Pembrey was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 92 Squadron from 18 June 1940
No 79 Squadron from 8 September 1940

RAF Roborough.

RAF Roborough was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 247 Squadron from 1 August 1940

RAF St Eval.

RAF St Eval was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 222 Squadron from 18 June 1940
No 236 Squadron from 8 August 1940
No 238 Squadron from 14 August 1940
No 222 Squadron from 11 September 1940

RAF Warmwell.

RAF Warmwell was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 152 Squadron from 12 July 1940


12 Group

Group Headquarters

12 Group Headquarters was based at RAF Watnall, the administratve centre.

Sector Airfields

RAF Church Fenton.

RAF Church Fenton was home to the Church Fenton Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 87 Squadron from 26 May 1940
No 73 Squadron from 18 June 1940
No 249 Squadron from 8 July 1940
No 85 Squadron from 5 September 1940

RAF Digby.

RAF Digby was home to the Digby Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 46 Squadron from 13 June 1940
No 29 Squadron from 27 June 1940
No 46 Squadron from 19 August 1940
No 151 Squadron from 1 September 1940
No 611 Squadron from 10 October 1939

RAF Duxford.

RAF Duxford was home to the Duxford Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 264 Squadron from 10 May 1940
No 19 Squadron from 3 July 1940
No 310 Squadron from 10 July 1940
No 46 Squadron from 18 August 1940
No 312 Squadron from 29 August 1940
No 242 Squadron from 26 October 1940
No 19 Squadron from 30 October 1940

RAF Kirton-in-Lindsey.

RAF Kirton-in-Lindsey was home to the Kirton-in-Lindsey Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 222 Squadron from 4 June 1939
No 253 Squadron from 24 May 1940
No 264 Squadron from 23 July 1940
No 74 Squadron from 21 August 1940
No 264 Squadron from 28 August 1940
No 616 Squadron from 9 September 1940
No 85 Squadron from 23 October 1940

RAF Wittering.

RAF Wittering was home to the Wittering Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 266 Squadron from 14 May 1940
No 74 Squadron from 14 August 1940
No 266 Squadron from 21 August 1940
No 1 Squadron from 9 September 1940


Fighter Airfields

RAF Coltishall.

RAF Coltishall was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 66 Squadron from 29 May 1940
No 242 Squadron from 18 June 1940
No 616 Squadron from 3 September 1940
No 74 Squadron from 9 September 1940
No 72 Squadron from 13 October 1940

RAF Leconfield.

RAF Leconfield was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 249 Squadron from 18 May 1940
No 616 Squadron from 6 June 1940
No 302 Squadron from 13 July 1940
No 303 Squadron from 11 October 1940

RAF Tern Hill.

Tern Hill was one of the 12 Group airfields used for resting units, and as a training airfield and maintneance depot. It was used as a relief landing ground and as a temporary base for night fighters operating against raids on Liverpool and cities in the north midlands.

13 Group

Group Headquarters

13 Group Headquarters was based at RAF Newcastle, the administratve centre.

Sector Airfields

RAF Acklington.

RAF Acklington was home to the Acklington Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 72 Squadron from 6 June 1940
No 79 Squadron from 13 July 1940
No 32 Squadron from 28 August 1940
No 610 Squadron from 31 August 1940

RAF Dyce.

RAF Dyce was home to the Dyce Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 248 Squadron from 22 May 1940
No 141 Squadron from 22 August 1940
No 145 Squadron from 31 August 1940
No 1 Squadron from 9 October 1940

RAF Turnhouse.

RAF Turnhouse was home to the Turnhouse Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 603 Squadron from 5 May 1940
No 141 Squadron from 28 June 1940
No 253 Squadron from 21 July 1940
No 65 Squadron from 28 August 1940
No 141 Squadron from 30 August 1940
No 1 Squadron from 14 September 1940
No 607 Squadron from 10 October 1940

RAF Usworth.

RAF Usworth was home to the Usworth Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 607 Squadron from 5 June 1940
No 43 Squadron from 8 September 1940

RAF Wick.

RAF Wick was home to the Wick Sector Operations Room and Staff, and the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 1 Squadron from 23 May 1940


Fighter Airfields

RAF Catterick.

RAF Catterick was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 219 Squadron from 4 October 1939
No 41 Squadron from 8 June 1940
No 54 Squadron from 28 July 1940
No 41 Squadron from 8 August 1940
No 504 Squadron from 1 September 1940
No 54 Squadron from 3 September 1940
No 600 Squadron from 12 October 1940

RAF Drem.
RAF Drem was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 145 Squadron from 14 August 1940
No 263 Squadron from 2 September 1940
No 111 Squadron from 8 September 1940
No 141 Squadron from 15 October 1940

RAF Grangemouth.

RAF Grangemouth was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 263 Squadron from 28 June 1940

RAF Kirkwall.

RAF Kirkwall was used as a satellite and relief airfield for fighter and coastal operations over the Scottish Islands and naval bases there.

RAF Sumburgh.

RAF Sumburgh was home to the following Squadrons during the Battle:

No 248 Squadron from 20 July 1940
No 248 Squadron from 31 July 1940

Besides the use of 100 octane fuel appears to be already covered by an Australian researcher. We had a discussion about it a good while ago on Butch2k's board.

This is from a researcher, researching another subject (Dutch East Indies Fuel levels prior to the Japanese Invasion) at the Australian War Memorial Archives, from a document, copied to the Australian Military Commission in England in February 1941, by Roll Royce to Lord Beaverbrook outlining past, current and proposed changes to the Merlin; and factors that affect it's performance. It was a collection of lose-leaf typed pages, included as an addendum in a report titled Fuel Supplies to The British Empire And It's Commonwealth; Outlook, Ramifications and Projections For The Prosecution Of The War.

The reason why it is included amongst AWM papers was because the Australian Government at that time was protesting vigoriously about the continued supply of lower grade 87 octane fuel when it too wanted 100 octane for the RAAF. McFarland, Pugh, Hart, Perret, Lumsden and even Churchill have all quoted parts from the report.

"The first bulk shipment of 100 octane fuel had arrived in Britain in June 1939 from the Esso refinery in Aruba. This and subsequent tanker shipments from Aruba, Curacao and the USA were stockpiled while the RAF continued to operate on 87 octane petrol. Having secured what were considered reasonably sufficient quantities of 100 octane, Fighter Command began converting its engines to this standard in March 1940, allowing boost (manifold) pressures to be raised without the risk of detonation in the cylinders. This initial increase in maximum boost from 6 lb to 9 lb delivered a useful power growth of around 130hp at the rated altitude.

By the time of the invasion of the Low Countries by Germany in May 1940 the RAF had converted approximately 25 % of it's total fighter force to 100 octane fuel use. The subsequent escalation in air activity and demands placed upon Fighter Command over the next two months put great strain on both the 100 octane fuel stockpiles and aircraft modified to use the fuel. Against the backdrop of total war the RAF found that it's reserves of 100 octane fuel was well below the level considered necessary for widespread use, for any sustained length of time.

Two actions were immediately undertaken by the British War Cabinet in May to resolve the looming crisis. Firstly 87 octane fuel was deemed the primary fuel source to be used until further supplies could be discovered and delivered in sufficient quantities to allow the Merlin conversions to again take place. Those existing fighters already so converted (approximately 125) would continue to use what supplies of 100 octane were available, but all other fighters that had not been modified to continue with the use of 87 octane (of which there was more than adequate supply). The second action was for the British Government to contract the Shell Oil Refining Company to assist the British-controlled Iraqi Petroleum Company at Kirkuk to produce 100 octane fuel. This arrangement proved quite successful as production was quickly converted to 100 octane fuel.

The first Middle East shipment of 100 octane fuel arrived in Portsmouth on 12th August, with a further two deliveries in September and four in October. Although too late to allow widespread conversion for the use of the fuel the deliveries did ensure that from this point on Britain would not be lacking in 100 octane fuel levels. With the newfound supply RAF Fighter Command again embarked upon a Merlin II and III conversion to 100 octane use from late September, finally achieving 100% conversion of it's fighter force by the end of November in 1940.

The problem was that Britain was getting all of it's 100 octane from overseas imports, which meant that it had to be brought in by sea by tankers, which were sunked at the time in large number by U boats, mines and aircraft. From the start of the war up until the end of the Battle the subs etc. sank some 550 000 tons of Allied tanker tonnage alone, carrying some 400 000 tons worth of oil cargo. I have most them in my database, with time, cause of loss and cargo type.

The germans tested the Spitfire Mk1 with thier own fuel at Rechlin. This lead to slightly decreased performance and unreliable performance data.

Source for the type of fuel used in Rechlin please. Oh, wait - Mike William's lying article in which he simply made this up, amongst a dozen other things..?

Besides the Germans had access to captured British/French 100 octane (unimportant - it was all American import) which on occasion they even used in their own aircraft to add salt into the Dunkeque wound, and their own 100 octane fuel of course which I believe at this point was actually better than British 100 octane.

[winny]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Nope, it says the "The Units concerned" are now stocked. It means some, but now all. Otherwise the distinction is about the 'units concerned' makes no sense.
Probably the same 16+2 Squadrons that were discussed earlier.

The units concerned are all frontline Spitfire and Hurricane units.

And, if you read the preceeding documents, not just the ones you find on the site, you will notice that bomber units concerned (3 stations) had priority.



That's nice and valid evidence for about half a dozen Squadrons out of about 50-60 participating the Battle.

I counted 30 squadrons combat reports that mention +12lb between May and July , how do you explain that?


The problem is that it was fighter stations that were stocked with fuel, not "Squadrons". A Squadron is just a bunch of men and planes. It can't store fuel. Airfields and Stations can.

As usual you apprear to be focusing on symantics, playing with words.


Now as it goes a number of Stations were supplied with high octane fuel. The Squadrons stationed there could use it. But the Squadrons themselves continously rotated amongst stations, so its difficult to say how many Squadrons had access to it at a time. You appear to have no problem making assumptions from this, why can't I?

For example, No 41 Sqn was at Catterick in May, but transferred to Hornchurch on 28 May, then back to Catterick on 8 June, then again back to Hornchurch on the 25 July, then beck to Catterick again until 2 September, and then again Hornchurch. OK, what's your point? A lot of stations were supplied with smaller ammounts of 100 octane because they understood that not every Aircraft would return to it's own base to refuel.


Besides the use of 100 octane fuel appears to be already covered by an Australian researcher. We had a discussion about it a good while ago on Butch2k's board.

This is from a researcher, researching another subject (Dutch East Indies Fuel levels prior to the Japanese Invasion) at the Australian War Memorial Archives, from a document, copied to the Australian Military Commission in England in February 1941, by Roll Royce to Lord Beaverbrook outlining past, current and proposed changes to the Merlin; and factors that affect it's performance. It was a collection of lose-leaf typed pages, included as an addendum in a report titled Fuel Supplies to The British Empire And It's Commonwealth; Outlook, Ramifications and Projections For The Prosecution Of The War.

The reason why it is included amongst AWM papers was because the Australian Government at that time was protesting vigoriously about the continued supply of lower grade 87 octane fuel when it too wanted 100 octane for the RAAF. McFarland, Pugh, Hart, Perret, Lumsden and even Churchill have all quoted parts from the report.

"The first bulk shipment of 100 octane fuel had arrived in Britain in June 1939 from the Esso refinery in Aruba. This and subsequent tanker shipments from Aruba, Curacao and the USA were stockpiled while the RAF continued to operate on 87 octane petrol. Having secured what were considered reasonably sufficient quantities of 100 octane, Fighter Command began converting its engines to this standard in March 1940, allowing boost (manifold) pressures to be raised without the risk of detonation in the cylinders. This initial increase in maximum boost from 6 lb to 9 lb delivered a useful power growth of around 130hp at the rated altitude.

By the time of the invasion of the Low Countries by Germany in May 1940 the RAF had converted approximately 25 % of it's total fighter force to 100 octane fuel use. The subsequent escalation in air activity and demands placed upon Fighter Command over the next two months put great strain on both the 100 octane fuel stockpiles and aircraft modified to use the fuel. Against the backdrop of total war the RAF found that it's reserves of 100 octane fuel was well below the level considered necessary for widespread use, for any sustained length of time.

Two actions were immediately undertaken by the British War Cabinet in May to resolve the looming crisis. Firstly 87 octane fuel was deemed the primary fuel source to be used until further supplies could be discovered and delivered in sufficient quantities to allow the Merlin conversions to again take place. Those existing fighters already so converted (approximately 125) would continue to use what supplies of 100 octane were available, but all other fighters that had not been modified to continue with the use of 87 octane (of which there was more than adequate supply). The second action was for the British Government to contract the Shell Oil Refining Company to assist the British-controlled Iraqi Petroleum Company at Kirkuk to produce 100 octane fuel. This arrangement proved quite successful as production was quickly converted to 100 octane fuel.

The first Middle East shipment of 100 octane fuel arrived in Portsmouth on 12th August, with a further two deliveries in September and four in October. Although too late to allow widespread conversion for the use of the fuel the deliveries did ensure that from this point on Britain would not be lacking in 100 octane fuel levels. With the newfound supply RAF Fighter Command again embarked upon a Merlin II and III conversion to 100 octane use from late September, finally achieving 100% conversion of it's fighter force by the end of November in 1940. OK so the first Middle east (Iraq?) was 12th August, what about all the 100 Octane we got from America in '38, '39' '40?



Source for the type of fuel used in Rechlin please. Oh, wait - Mike William's lying article in which he simply made this up, amongst a dozen other things..?
Can you prove this? And no I didn't get the info from Mike Williams. You're reaction 'Lying article' says more about this..

Besides the Germans had access to captured British/French 100 octane (unimportant - it was all American import) which on occasion they even used in their own aircraft to add salt into the Dunkeque wound, and their own 100 octane fuel of course which I believe at this point was actually better than British 100 octane.

Hang on, you can just say something like 'I believe German 100 octane was better" without anything to support it. Double standards.

The RAF painted '100' on the engine cowling of converted Spitfires. Obviously they would only need to do this whilst there were 2 types of fuel being used at the same time to ensure the correct fuel was used. I can't find a picture any later than July 1940 where '100' is on there. If they got rid of that then that must mean the conversion was complete?

Consumption of 100 octane fuel during the Battle of Britain was 58,000 tons
I ton of fuel is just over 14 barrels, 35 gallons in a barrel. 1 ton of fuel = 490 gallons. That is 28 million gallons. So by your number of 125 converted aircraft that would mean average use per Aircraft of 227,000 gallons in 12 weeks. What? Where did it all go?

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by winny

The units concerned are all frontline Spitfire and Hurricane units.

That's your assumption, against what the sentence means. You are welcome to prove it with evidence.

Plus, if one reads the documentation apart from the single page you supplied, it makes it clear that it names specific Bomber Stations, and that Bomber Stations have priority over specific Fighter Stations. It means something explictely different than "all frontline Spitfire and Hurricane units" which has to be stressed to be hoghwash and that it was made up, typically by the fans of the aircraft. There is no trace of anything like that in the available papers.








Hang on, you can just say something like 'I believe German 100 octane was better" without anything to support it. Double standards.

Red Herring. I can, but its not the subject. Read some of the documents on my site. As a matter of fact, one of the driving forces behind British 100 octane import was the fact that the Germans, with their large synthetic capacity, were seen to be in a good position to produce 100 octane domestically.

OK so the first Middle east (Iraq?) was 12th August, what about all the 100 Octane we got from America in '38, '39' '40?

This was already answered in the source, just read it again.

I also do not intend to answer some of your other questions again, since I've already answered them. Please read them again.

The RAF painted '100' on the engine cowling of converted Spitfires. Obviously they would only need to do this whilst there were 2 types of fuel being used at the same time to ensure the correct fuel was used. I can't find a picture any later than July 1940 where '100' is on there. If they got rid of that then that must mean the conversion was complete

Again, a wild assumption - and one that is based on merely that _you_ haven't seen something, and this MUST mean something you would like to be true.

Reminds me of this one, sorry for the pun.

http://youtu.be/30x8VTCaOws

Consumption of 100 octane fuel during the Battle of Britain was 58,000 tons
I ton of fuel is just over 14 barrels, 35 gallons in a barrel. 1 ton of fuel = 490 gallons. That is 28 million gallons. So by your number of 125 converted aircraft that would mean average use per Aircraft of 227,000 gallons in 12 weeks. What? Where did it all go?

Again, assumptions and oversimplifications.. I suggest you read the previous thread, where fuel requirements for non-operational flights, engine manufacturers were discussed in detail.