It all started fine and dandy, but then... (new youtube movie by me)

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by philip.ed

Unreasonable; Peter Brothers used to say that he would turn into tracers when attacked, because it was the last thing the E/A would expect, and it would usuallyspoil his aim when lining up the next shot.
I think he was instigating that one should only do this when the E/A has stopped firing!

It's also a matter of geometry.

Turning into the attack has the disadvantage of crossing the line of fire, but it creates an angle that's difficult to manage for the attacker: he doesn't just have to follow, he also has to pull lead on top of it to make the rounds connect.

On the other hand, turning away from the attack makes it very easy for the attacker to follow in a low-G lag pursuit curve. He can throw in a low yo-yo to cut into my turn and transition from lag to lead pursuit and then all he has to do is wait until i am in range. He's effectively been given a free firing solution with minimal amount of G pulled (so he retains his energy), which enables him to keep the advantage even if he doesn't get me in one pass.

The problem of crossing the line of fire can be partially solved (there's not 100% solutions here, just making it harder for the other guy to aim but there's no guarantee he won't land some hits) by incorporating a bit of vertical component.

So, instead of rolling 90 degrees flat and yanking on the stick in a pure horizontal break turn, it's a good idea to make it into a yo-yo maneuver which also has the effect of managing your energy better. Especially when flying blue in CoD this can be combined with a feint: roll one way and then take advantage of your ability to pull negative Gs by making it a negative yo-yo or barrel roll in the other direction, followed by rolling into the turn properly to transition to positive G (since neg Gs usually seem to cause a higher energy loss).

There are cases where it's best to turn away from the attack but they need certain conditions.
For example, if i'm flying a sturdier, harder hitting but slower aircraft and can't catch up with the target after an initial head-on merge (think Fw190A vs P-51 at high altitude in IL2:1946) i might start turning into him to make him commit to a certain direction, but i will reverse after the merge so that we end up going in opposite circles in the hopes of meeting him head-on again.

Then, the smart thing for him to do if he saw what i'm doing would be again to turn away from me to avoid the head-on, plus unload and pick up speed. In such a case i'm denied the head-on where i have the advantage and even though i can easily get on his six i won't be able to get in range because he's faster.

All this of course is theory. I can't even begin to count the amount of times i've botched this stuff online and got shot down, but when it works it's pure satisfaction. I once had a 10 minute duel on spits vs 109s against a P47, just going around in the way described and having one head-on pass after another, it was like jousting
I managed to kill his engine and he dived for home so i didn't get a kill (it was on the half-scale channel map, it's easy to glide back to England from 30000ft with the shorter distances), but man my hands were all sweaty after the encounter

[philip.ed]

Blackdog, that was a very interesting read! Thanks for that. (And sorry that I can't repay it by a post which is similarly informative).

[Freycinet]

By the way, when did I turn into the fire of the 109? I felt I was just hunkering down behind the armour plating to be honest! (When I wasn't looking behind me... - I can guarantee I wouldn't have put my head out in the bullet stream in real life!)

[jf1981]

Great Job Thanks.

[unreasonable]

Originally Posted by Freycinet

By the way, when did I turn into the fire of the 109? I felt I was just hunkering down behind the armour plating to be honest! (When I wasn't looking behind me... - I can guarantee I wouldn't have put my head out in the bullet stream in real life!)

At 17.34 and 20.02.

The first time was when you were first attacked by the 2nd 109 on your 6, slightly to your right. The tracers go past the cockpit on your right, you turn into them and are hit. You are now toast. The second occasion you get away with it as the the 109 looks as though it is firing a bit high.

On the radiator thing... I do not know exactly how much difference it makes on a Spitfire (I usually fly the 109s), but certainly a few mph, perhaps more at high speed. Higher speed = more airflow = more cooling, so the radiator can be progressively closed = less drag = higher speed!

Since speed = options there is really never any reason deliberately to slow right down in combat. Avoid overshooting by yo-yoing instead. You then get a series of deflection shots so you may not make the kill if you aim is off, but you always have the energy to break away if an unwanted visitor shows up.

[unreasonable]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

It's also a matter of geometry.

Turning into the attack has the disadvantage of crossing the line of fire, but it creates an angle that's difficult to manage for the attacker: he doesn't just have to follow, he also has to pull lead on top of it to make the rounds connect.

On the other hand, turning away from the attack makes it very easy for the attacker to follow in a low-G lag pursuit curve. He can throw in a low yo-yo to cut into my turn and transition from lag to lead pursuit and then all he has to do is wait until i am in range. He's effectively been given a free firing solution with minimal amount of G pulled (so he retains his energy), which enables him to keep the advantage even if he doesn't get me in one pass.

The problem of crossing the line of fire can be partially solved (there's not 100% solutions here, just making it harder for the other guy to aim but there's no guarantee he won't land some hits) by incorporating a bit of vertical component.

So, instead of rolling 90 degrees flat and yanking on the stick in a pure horizontal break turn, it's a good idea to make it into a yo-yo maneuver which also has the effect of managing your energy better. Especially when flying blue in CoD this can be combined with a feint: roll one way and then take advantage of your ability to pull negative Gs by making it a negative yo-yo or barrel roll in the other direction, followed by rolling into the turn properly to transition to positive G (since neg Gs usually seem to cause a higher energy loss).

I agree with all of this if the attacker is coming in at a distance at angle of about 45% or more off your tail, but in this case the OP is attacked by an aircraft close on his 6 flying on about the same vector. He already has a firing solution he is just missing (just!). Both aeroplanes are low and slow so vertical manouvres are tricky. Plus the OP is in a Spitfire so he wants the 109 in a lag turn - it will never catch him. If he goes low to cut across you pull up and are now above him.