109s autoprop - did it ever existed?

[Kurfurst]

Originally Posted by IvanK

By general operational employment I am referring to general Squadron use, i.e. How many aircraft were equipped with it and at what date.

Naturally it is quite impossible to tell without going into lenghts of possibly impossible scale of research.

We know however, that the auto prop pitch system was available and fitted to aircraft in late 1939 as per the manual though.

Originally Posted by IvanK

Most publications on the 109 refer to Auto as a late 1940 introduction. the JG53 account above is a typical example... "17 Sept 1940".

What makes it "typical"? It refers to the state of II/JG 53, nothing else.
Now, II./JG 53 (formed/renamed from II./JG133) was one of the first units to re-equip with Bf 109E (see 8 January LW strenght report: http://ww2.dk/oob/statistics/se8139.htm).

Obviously they had aircraft from the earliest Bf 109E batch produced late 1938, before automatic systems were introduced. I can't seem to find any great losses with this unit (in all strenght reports they seem to be up at near max. strenght), so - would it be really surprising that they had many of these earliest aircraft still in service in 1940 in their original state?

Originally Posted by IvanK

As are the references to it in the book Messerschmit BF109 Recognition Manual by Marco Fernandez-Sommerau page 103:

"A significant improvement from mid 1940 was the adoption of an electro-mechanic automatic pitch regulator ..."

The AJ Press publication on the "ME 109" Pt 1 page 46 refers to it being tested in "Summer 1940".

Which is why I don't like to rely on secondary sources. Some even state the E-3 wasn't produced until 'late 1939' or '1940', the problem is that factory deliveries show about two hundred produced by the end of 1938, and there are pictures of them from the Spanish Civil War..

Its simply a case where a secondary source (I have not seen either, so I can't comment on their general reliabilty) is demonstratibly false since there IS an Emil manual from December 1939 (which the writers were probably unaware of), that notes, in no uncertain terms that Bf 109E-1/E-3 are fitted with automatic prop pitch systems, while some, presumably earlier aircraft are not.

The RAF and French test reports on the E3. The RAF handling notes on the E3 all refer to the non auto version.... though I presume these are all based on the same aircraft.

Indeed its the same aircraft, captured, iirc, in November 1939, ie. before even the said manual would be issued. It had neither armor or auto prop pitch fitted, and naturally it wasn't refitted with these in Allied use, so IMHO its fairly irrevalent.

The Translated document referring to its initial introduction of auto.... "has been introduced" , though I accept the hand written date on the document isn't iron clad.

The question is when it was introduced.

Steinhilper's book "Spitfire on my tail" refers to manual prop pitch use in Sept 1940 and the difficulty on training new pilots on the technique to use it to maximise performance.

Again, Steinhilper's experiences are valid to his unit only. He had obviously no overview over the rest of the Jagdgruppen.

He was belonging to the unit I./JG 52 (ex-I./JG 433), which, again, was one of the first JG to re-equip with 109E from the earliest batches, evidently during March-April 1939 (see:http://ww2.dk/oob/statistics/se13439.htm) The same applies as to the JG 53 account.

So I am not so sure its "Its rather safe to assume that all new production aircraft had it (for example Emils produced in 1940), while the older machines were gradually retrofitted with the system." Late 1940 production I would agree with as I would for earlier aircraft being retro fitted. The general thrust from various sources is that general operational (i.e. squadron) use of auto didn't occur until late 1940.

And this 'general thrust' stems from what?

Two Pilots from two Gruppen/Wings (with up to 70-80 109Es at their disposal) out of the 29 Gruppen plus their Stab (ca. 1100 109s) reported that their Gruppe's 109E's were only retrofitted/received new planes with Verstell Automatik in the automn 1939...?

How and why are these two Gruppen representative of the remaining 27 Gruppen...?

It's not only that, but we know from the December 1939 manual that the auto prop pitch system was already fitted to aircraft (why on Earth would be the aircraft manual instruct the pilots in its use otherwise..?).

Now, up to 31.08.1939, the following Bf 109Es were delivered:

522 E-1
603 E-3

Obviously these would be all with manual prop pitch.

By 30.06.1940 an additional

323 E-1s
533 E-3s
203 E-4s

were delivered in the meantime.

Now, if we accept that, as per the December 1939 manual, the auto prop pitch was introduced in the meantime, it would mean that literally hundreds were fitted with auto pitch well before the battle.

By 31.10.1940 an additional

55 E-1s
110 E-1Bs
75 E-3a (export)
47 E-4s
211 E-4/B
20 E-4/N
15 E-4/BN
186 E-7

were delivered. This latter (3rd) production block would refer exactly to the BoB period, during which 700+ Bf 109E were delivered. Either if we accept that auto was introduced in December 1939 (which is what the original manual says) or in June 1939 or around (which is what some books suggest), these are all auto prop pitch planes.

Thats not to say that Auto didn't exist conceptually or limited use prior to then. Based on the general knowledge it would seem that Manual was the most common system until at least Sept 1940 i.e. the Main accepted time line of the Battle of Britain.

My problem with this conclusion is that it assumes that after its December 1939 introduction to the 109E, the Germans, for some irrational reason, kept producing new planes with the old manual propellor system.
A notion that not only irrational, but also lacks any kind of evidence..

In the end we are then discussing how all this info translates to COD use. So far the E3 and E3B are the Manual system. I would anticipate the E4 and later models when they come to be equipped with the Auto system.

A datal based system could also be applied to E3's allowing Auto use post Sept/Oct 1940 ? . An intermediate step might also include the Rocker switch on the throttle with Manual as well.

It would be a perfect solution as far as there's selection for all possible combinations, but for two reasons I find it impractical to be implemented into the game:

1, By August 1940, most of the E-3s were converted to E-4s, so 'late retrofitted E-3s' are a non-issue IMHO, an E-4 would make a perfectly enough. OTOH, E-1s could problably use such a system, or seperate E-1 (when we get one).

2, Rocker switch on the throttle would need developer resources to implement, but in the end the player would keep pressing rpm increase/decrease button all the same, the only difference being animation..

Kurfurst what is the exact date of the Handbook and or its last amendment date from which you refer ?

It's L.Dv. 553/3 (Entwurf, ie. draft) Bf 109E Flugzeughandbuch mit Nachtrag für Bf 109T, Berlin, den 16. Dezember 1939. There are no amendments (from my experience these came as separate, add on sheets of paper attached to the end of the manual)

As a sidenote, it also mentions that aircraft armor is not yet shown in the weight tables, so it was introduced at that time as well.

I also have an "1939" Bf 109E manual of different kind, and one of the earlies ones from 1938, neither which mention the Auto prop pitch, so I am near certain that the feature was introduced with this manual.