Community FM Efford

[6S.Manu]

@ fruitbat
Hi mate, the "Big Week" campaign will start when the new SEOW release is available. There is no certain date on that, but must be soon.
It will be flown at 21:30 CET. Day of week must still be chosen, might be Tuesday or Thursday; maybe we can have more than a mission a week (if number of players exceeds number of available slots, that should be 70), in this case we might fly on Sunday too.

The dedicated bomber pilots of every virtual squads will fly in the Red side.

@ Thor/Stormcrow
I really don't understand the problem about dividing the community. So it seems a bad thing also to have different difficulty settings because it fractures the community.

I'll tell you the last time me and some of my squadmates have fled in a famous public server (the one on the PTO) we did only a sortie: during that flight we saw people stalling on the ground, people ramming each other and a guy flamed by the gunner of a Val (!!!)

Sorry but I have not fun to fly in that way. Why should I enjoy to enter in a furball at 50m? This is supposed to be a WW2 simulator and I like to fly with guys using the right way to fly warbirds (above all they follow the first rule: "watch for your virtual life").

The stock was lacking many things until the game was hacked. Only then IL2 did a great jump ahead thanks to modders and TD.

Realistic bombing (not 100% realistic, but not 10% like it was before), Fw190s with the right gunsight (both the position and the Revi model in the early ones), 6DoF (!!!!), new sounds (I can't wait for new CloD's one) and one of the more important for me, the absence of the "engine radar" (I asked the Dev team about this feature in Clod something like a dozen of times but I've never received a answer).

Sure there are planes made by modders that are jokes (great models but xwing FMs) but there are great one too; some of my teammates are flying also in the FTV and they are created from paper the italian PAN mb339, with ultra realistic flight characteristics... they are developing it since more than a year with the assistance of guys working inside the real PAN).
They have every day a new admission request from guys who DON'T fly IL2 and don't care about WW2 but they buy the game only to fly with the PAN.

Anyway if in this board sometimes I act like a promoter it's because I know there are guys out there who would like to fly the way I do but they don't know where they can fly (if they are like me they look only at the 5% of the HL servers). Some teammates of mine have gone away years ago but they are returning.

So it's not like you think: there is still a big community, only this is "out" from HL.
They manage coops or online campaigns but don't come here to promote this or in the HL chat.

To finish this argument (sorry admin, thank to your patience) I've never ever found a cheater on this game. Your is only a phobia: I repeat that you are losing a great thing. Do yourself a favor: try HSFX or UP at least one time, have an offline fly and give me your feedbacks.

BTW: the majority of the pilots in this community have bought CloD... they have faith in Oleg and Ilya (but not a blatanty religious one as some guys here...) and will continue to support them IF they give them the tools to fly the game in the way all agree to do.

This is my last one.

[csThor]

It's a question of philosophy. I do not credit "the community" with enough maturity to be given any tool to modify the core engine or something as vital as FM/DM simply for the fact that too many people think they're god's gift to the flight simmers. I simply don't want to see that certain people are given power to influence anything, not when I consider them excessively biased WRT certain issues.

I very much like a level playground ... which is also why I am all for 3rd Party Development as long as it is done in conjunction with the developer. Anything else is in my opinion simply a way for some to strive for internet fame, regardless of the cost to the community as a whole.

[Tiger27]

Originally Posted by csThor

Amusing to see the pink-tinted glasses some of you're wearing WRT the mods. To me all they managed was to fracture the community even more, apart from providing a stage for those people who strive for some internet fame and virtual shoulder clapping, and introduce the almost-religious flamefests and the mutual accusations of FM-heresy. As such they followed the trend I've seen in previous sims - modding is to the larger degree not about enhancing the gameplay value but about receiving internet adulation. Thanks, I pass ...

Have to agree, post mods every time I thought I would jump back into IL2 I would find i had the wrong version of this or that mod, gave up in the end.

Of course this is not the same thing as what the Daidalos team have done, those patches/updates are the best way to do it, imo.

[DC338]

Mods online will get you banned at least from what luthier has stated.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=21362

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by csThor

It's a question of philosophy. I do not credit "the community" with enough maturity to be given any tool to modify the core engine or something as vital as FM/DM simply for the fact that too many people think they're god's gift to the flight simmers. I simply don't want to see that certain people are given power to influence anything, not when I consider them excessively biased WRT certain issues.

I very much like a level playground ... which is also why I am all for 3rd Party Development as long as it is done in conjunction with the developer. Anything else is in my opinion simply a way for some to strive for internet fame, regardless of the cost to the community as a whole.

I totally agree with you. And I am shoulder clapping you heavily

Sadly Il2's Mod experience as shown that today devs hve now to come out in days light and fight to protect their baby. What a waste of time induced by those who claims them self as disinterested helper/savers...

[Sternjaeger II]

I completely agree with csThor.

The main issue here is where reality stands. FM discussions are a very very difficult field, simply because sometimes you have people shouting at each other or throwing charts of dubious nature, and they probably don't even fly with the same controls' sensitivity.

I don't mean to be an elitist, but you shouldn't even get close to talk on what a flight model should be like if you never put your arse on a plane and piloted it, and even in that case there are so many things to keep into account (limitations of the sim, unrealistic behaviour of AI etc..)

As things are now I still think that the AI is way too jolly in its manouvres and reactions: the reality is that dogfights a la WW1 were not standard, in many cases it was all sorted in a single BnZ and pilots never knew what bounced them.. what we see here instead is the Red Arrows on Red Bulls making the craziest evasive manouvres or turning their planes into Shuttles and legging it..

But back to the original topic, no, I don't think "the community" has the required skills or experience to give an 100% reliable feedback on "what things should be like".

[Eklund89]

OT: I am really interested in these more serious online wars. I am a serious flyer and im interested to join some european "team"/clan/whatever. PM me for another serious player.

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I don't mean to be an elitist, but you shouldn't even get close to talk on what a flight model should be like if you never put your arse on a plane and piloted it, and even in that case there are so many things to keep into account (limitations of the sim, unrealistic behaviour of AI etc..)

Neither if the guy who changes the FM is an aeronautical engineer, working with professional software and testing all the planes by this software? Many IL2 planes are really close to the real performances according to software simulation + historical data. Other planes are very different according both. Strange isn't it?

I'm more inclined to have faith in a professional software output than a sim developer opinion (and we know how he's easily influenced by some customer's opinions).

@Eklund89: check PM

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

Neither if the guy who changes the FM is an aeronautical engineer, working with professional software and testing all the planes by this software? Many IL2 planes are really close to the real performances according to software simulation + historical data. Other planes are very different according both. Strange isn't it?

I'm more inclined to have faith in a professional software output than a sim developer opinion (and we know how he's easily influenced by some customer's opinions).

@Eklund89: check PM

It's a very delicate field Manu, you need a lot of empirical data in order to achieve a reliable FM,and sometimes we simply don't have this information.
Even the use of data measured nowadays on warbirds can't be completely accurate, because the plane loadouts and setups are different than what they used to be back in the days. I can tell you what a modern P-51D flight envelope is like, but there will surely be some discrepancies with the data recorded in the 40s.

I think the best way around this is developing a simulator that works the other way around, where physics are accurate and the sim does its calculations on airfoils, hp output, weight and other parametres.. but I'm afraid we will have to wait several years for something like that being available on a home pc..

Cloud computing might be the future of simulations, where one supercomputer does all the calculations and we just connect via terminals, but this is another story.

I think that it's a bit premature to do any speculations for now, let's give the guys at Maddox at least 6 months and then we might think of an effective think tank, but until then I wouldn't put the horse before the cart and limit feedback to bug reports.

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

Neither if the guy who changes the FM is an aeronautical engineer, working with professional software and testing all the planes by this software? Many IL2 planes are really close to the real performances according to software simulation + historical data. Other planes are very different according both. Strange isn't it?

I'm more inclined to have faith in a professional software output than a sim developer opinion (and we know how he's easily influenced by some customer's opinions).

@Eklund89: check PM

This is summarized in the now famous Oleg&Il2 equation :
if CNbr->0 then DeltaFM->0
wehre CNbr stand for the number of potential customer
DeltaFM : the average difference with the real expected value

Not to mention the asymptotic convergence

Anyway we should be really satisfied of what we've just got here with CoD and helps dev team not to be over influenced by baized comments


Hummm ... Prof Sim Software you said