I would like one question,why is not included in this part of the E4 Messer?

[fruitbat]

Hooton in Eagle in Flames gives the percentage losses of 109s by subtype:

July
E1 - 44%
E3 - 30%
E4 - 20%

August
E1 - 40%
E3 - 8%
E4 - 52%

September
E1 - 38%
E3 - 1%
E4 - 61%

October
E1 - 36%
E3 - 2%
E4 - 62%

and from Kurfust, over at ubi a while ago,

"I have some actual numbers. On 31 August 1940, fighter units (excluding JG 77) reported 375 E-1s, 125 E-3s, 339 E-4s and 32 E-7s on strength, indicating that most of the E-3s had been already converted to E-4 standard. JG 77 had around 100-125 aircraft with it, but for the rest of the units, its 75% cannon E-3/4/7, the rest are all MG E-1s. The E-1 and E-3 were produced parallel and in about equal numbers from the end of 1938, but by mid-1940, the production of the E-1 stopped, replaced by the E-4 and then the E-7."

and

In Ulrich Steinhilper's book 'Spitfire on My Tail', he relates quite clearly that they, JG52 didn't get there first cannon armed 109's until mid september , and then only 2, which were hand me downs from another unit. Rest of the unit bar these 2 planes was still in E1's.

Its pretty clear that the E1 and E4 were the most common variants by far and that around SEPTEMBER sometime, the E4 became more prevalent than the E1, which had been the most common type until then, but even it October a third of the losses were still E1's.

which makes the E3 choice mystifying to me.

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

In Ulrich Steinhilper's book 'Spitfire on My Tail', he relates quite clearly that they, JG52 didn't get there first cannon armed 109's until mid september , and then only 2, which were hand me downs from another unit. Rest of the unit bar these 2 planes was still in E1's.

Its pretty clear that the E1 and E4 were the most common variants by far and that around SEPTEMBER sometime, the E4 became more prevalent than the E1, which had been the most common type until then, but even it October a third of the losses were still E1's.

which makes the E3 choice mystifying to me.

Yes, this is the reference I was talking about. He was always complaining that they had old types and the only new ones went to Galland. He did get an upgrade towards the end if I remember.

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by Osprey

Yes, this is the reference I was talking about. He was always complaining that they had old types and the only new ones went to Galland. He did get an upgrade towards the end if I remember.

Yep, plane he was shot down in was a cannon armed emil (he was one of the lucky 2 to get one)

I've been to see it, it's now on display at the museum at Hawkinge, after it was dug up in the 70's about 5 mile from where i live.

[TUSA/TX-Gunslinger]

Thanks Osprey and Fruitbat for sharing that data. I have Galland's book too, and agree - he doesn't speak much at all about subtypes during this period. I see this alot in the pilot biographies I have. Looked through Gunther Rall's also, finding nothing about aircraft details during this period.

I just re-read the section from Caldwell's book that I referenced earlier. I made a significant error in applying the quote from the book. The comment about E-1's concerned the October period. I stand corrected. I'll share a few paragraphs here for completeness.

"The Schlageter fighters found themselves back at their permanent bases on the Rhine, where from 26 June to 20 July they mounted guard against the minor threat posed by RAF Bomber Command.

All the Geschwader's aircraft were fitted with seat and back armor before the return to combat. Attempts to implement an engine-mounted cannon in the Bf 109 were temporarily abandoned, and the model that was to carry it, the Bf 109E-3 was replaced on Messerschmitt's production lines by the E-4. The MG FF/M cannon, originally designed for engine mounting, had a higher rate of fire than the MG/FF, and supplanted the earlier cannon in the wings of the E-4. Another standard feature of the E-4 was an armored windshield.

Another significant variant, the Bf 109E-4/N, was an answer to the Jagdwaffe pilots' complaints of poor high-altitude performance. This model had a modified engine, the DB 601N, with an increase in engine compression ratio from 6.9 to 8.2, boosting maximum horsepower to 1175. There was a cost for this improvement-96 octane fuel was required in the new engine instead of the standard 87 octane. High-octane fuel was always in short supply in Germany, and the E-4/N was given a restricted production run. JG 26 was one of the few Geschwader to receive thsi model. According to the Luftwaffe's aircraft loss returns, JG 26 fought the Battle of Britain with E-1's, E-4,s and E-4/N's. The lightly armed E-1 was still being flown by some of the enlisted pilots in late October."

Thanks again for the info-good discussion.

S!

Gunny