If UBI's DRM scheme is unacceptable...

[yellonet]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

@yellownet

the oignal part you probably missed was, "2. I want to be able to play the game on the go (offline)."
and the response was "Hmm, who plays a flightsim "on the go"? I sometimes bring my Nintendo DS or PSP around on trips or whatever but even those are cumbersome and especially the PSP takes a good time to load some games. So if you are on a business trip or something you actually bring your huge-*ss gaming laptop with you? You're gonna need a joystick, where do you put your HOTAS or even a "smaller" joystick? in your back pocket? They won't even fit in a small suitcase! Ok, presume you DO bring all that stuff with you on your trips, most hotels (even cheaper ones) have free Wlan."

You've done yourself a misservice with your response to that

No I didn't miss that, but you may have missed the meaning of my answer.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

let me ask you on your "The point being, when you buy something you should be able to use it as you see fit."; do you complain because you have to use nVidia drivers with nVidia cards, and have no option to use ATI instead... and vica versa?

That's hardly the same thing, DRM isn't something that is a vital part of the product, the product works just fine without it, DRM is just added afterwards in order to control how the product is used. How would you like it if that nVidia card would only would let you run games that had paid off nVidia to be "nVidia certified" for instance?

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

Or, (this bit is for yellownet as well) with your shiny new car... that you've replaced the engine and running gear with the engine and running gear from another manufacturer and wonder why the dealer you've bought car from won't honour your shop warranty?

Again, that's not the same. We're not talking about changing the product and then making a claim against the publisher/seller, it's just about being able to use the product the way you want to without being forced to be online or being forced to install software that you have no control over and that can pretty much do anything in your system without you knowing it.

[yellonet]

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

When you buy retailed software you are not buying the software its self, just the right to use it.

The company would be mad to actually sell you their software they have spent years and hundreds of thousands/millions on for peanuts

You only own the right to use it under their terms and conditions.

.

I think most people are aware of this. And it's just those "terms" that we're talking about.

Basically if you want to play the game you are forced to install other software that you have no control over at all and that can do pretty much anything in your system without you knowing.
Is it so difficult to understand that some people doesn't like that and just wants to buy a clean game?

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by yellonet

No I didn't miss that, but you may have missed the meaning of my answer.


That's hardly the same thing, DRM isn't something that is a vital part of the product, the product works just fine without it, DRM is just added afterwards in order to control how the product is used. How would you like it if that nVidia card would only would let you run games that had paid off nVidia to be "nVidia certified" for instance?


Again, that's not the same. We're not talking about changing the product and then making a claim against the publisher/seller, it's just about being able to use the product the way you want to without being forced to be online or being forced to install software that you have no control over and that can pretty much do anything in your system without you knowing it.

Nah... I understood your answer

my question which I put to you... you're twisting and detracting away a little there and getting into areas of trading law

how do you define: use it the way you want to?

well, you've only got the thieves/ pirates to thank for that... but, in fairness, I don't agree with being held to a constant online connect to run the sim/ game either (as I've said before), which is different to an online activation yada, yada.

[The Kraken]

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

You only own the right to use it under their terms and conditions.

Indeed. And those conditions get successively worse for the customer. And everyone's cheering about that

[Wolf_Rider]

this the from the last game I put in, which hasn't varied much since the first, many many years ago...

3.LICENCE CONDITIONS

3.1Except as expressly set out in this Licence or as permitted by any local law, you undertake to use the Program for your own personal use, and you shall not:

(a)use the Program, or permit use of the Program, on more than one computer, computer terminal, or workstation at the same time;
(b)make copies of the Program or any part thereof, or make copies of the materials accompanying this Program except where such copying is incidental to normal use of the Program or where it is necessary for the purpose of back-up or security;
(c)use the Program, or permit use of the Program, in a network, multi-user arrangement or remote access arrangement, including any online use, except as otherwise explicitly provided by the Program;
(d)sell, rent, lease, sub-license, distribute, loan, translate, merge, adapt, vary, modify or otherwise transfer the Program, or any copies of the Program, without the express prior written consent of XXXX;
(e)not to make alterations to, or modifications of, the whole or any part of the Program nor permit the Program or any part of it to be combined with, or become incorporated in, any other programs;
(f)not to disassemble, decompile, reverse engineer or create derivative works based on the whole, or any part, of the Program nor attempt to do any such things except to the extent that (by virtue of section 296A of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 198 such actions cannot be prohibited because they are essential for the purpose of achieving inter-operability of the Program with another software program, and provided that the information obtained by you during such activities:
(i)is used only for the purpose of achieving inter-operability of the Program with another software program; and
(ii)is not unnecessarily disclosed or communicated to any third party without the XXXX’s prior written consent; and
(iii)is not used to create any software which is substantially similar to the Program.
(g)remove any proprietary notices or labels from the Program or otherwise modify the Program without the prior written consent of the XXXX; and
(h)exploit this Program or any of its parts commercially, including but not limited to use at a cyber cafe, computer gaming centre or any other location-based site. XXXXX, may offer a separate Site Licence Agreement to permit you to make the Program available for commercial use; please refer to the contact information below.

3.2You acknowledge that the Program has not been developed to meet your individual requirements and that it is therefore your responsibility to ensure that the facilities and functions of the Program as described in the Documentation meet your requirements.

3.3You acknowledge that the Program may not be free of errors or bugs and you agree that the existence of any minor errors shall not constitute a breach of this Licence.




and is pretty much standard... and excepting for points 3.2 and 3.3, is almost word for word identical to that of the EULA for a $30k motion control program I use in theatre

[T}{OR]

Originally Posted by csThor

That's smokescreen-talk. To counter piracy a working copy protection would be sufficient. DRM is about tying customers to the publisher, introduce more and more stringent DRM schemes and pay-DLCs, prepare the way for true cloud-computing and ultimately force pay-to-play (even if called "club membership fee" to ease the public outcry) for any kind of game. This is what DRM is about - it's about introducing various new ways of squeezing even more money out of customers, money which will flow to the Publisher alone and which will not be used to develop better games. And this is why I believe DRM is inacceptable while copy protection is.

Well said. However, there is no such thing as working copy protection.

The latest attempts (SHV and Assassin's Creed) were, amongst other stuff already mentioned - to prevent re-sales.

All in all some very strong arguments against DRM.

[yellonet]

Originally Posted by The Kraken

Indeed. And those conditions get successively worse for the customer. And everyone's cheering about that

Exactly... makes you wonder

[Wolf_Rider]

@ KG26_Alpha

see what I mean

[yellonet]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

Nah... I understood your answer

my question which I put to you... you're twisting and detracting away a little there and getting into areas of trading law

how do you define: use it the way you want to?

I want to use a game by just installing it and then playing it, no strings attached, I just want the game, nothing else, I do not want to be constantly online, I don't want any root kits and other malware installed.
I mean, games are just becoming more and more restricted, and some users are just cheering it on, I don't get that.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

well, you've only got the thieves/ pirates to thank for that... but, in fairness, I don't agree with being held to a constant online connect to run the sim/ game either (as I've said before), which is different to an online activation yada, yada.

Blaming the pirates is just buying into the rhetoric of the market, oh yeah... there's pirates, so now all non-pirates have to be punished?
That's just the same that goes on in the world, politicians use the terrorist-excuse to dismantle our civil liberties and bit by bit introduce the police state, "it's for your protection...".

[nearmiss]

Blaming the pirates is just buying into the rhetoric of the market, oh yeah... there's pirates, so now all non-pirates have to be punished?

I don't think I'm punished buying software. I have a clear conscience and feel good about my purchase --- even if I'm just getting a lifetime loan of it.

I appreciate people like Oleg, who give it their best. I want to support that kind of effort, also if I had my choice... I'd prefer to buy it with download so more of the money would go to Oleg.