Future of simulations 2010 discussion

[Sutts]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

It depends on how deeply the want for modelling is really. You're right in a way that "procedure" (flicking switches in the right order) doesn't require any extra rendering but the math required for the "procedure" (the want for the effects of worn seals/ almost rancid hydraulic oil/ a dodgy injector/ intermittent loose wire on a cockpit gauge, for instance, or the added "realism: of the bug splat) involved is what would bog down hardware.

we need to be careful that we don't make the mistake of misinterpreting realism/ realistic/ procedure, lest we end up in casuistry to further agenda

I take it you are describing the effects of a worn engine on how easy it is to start? If so then I agree that keeping track of the state of the oil and the degree of wear in the individual components would be way over the top and would affect performance.

However, I think all this could be easily modelled through a simple factor applied at startup that is based on the degree of abuse an engine has suffered. I believe Oleg is already keeping track of the "abuse factor".

The procedures we're talking about are pretty straight forward really. Things like:

If number of prime strokes are insufficient based on current engine temperature then make engine fail to start. (pre take off check with no framerate hit)

If master switch is not turned on then ignition and all electrical services won't work. (pre take off check with no framerate hit)

If booster pump is not used while switching tanks then % chance of fuel lock and engine cutout. (check state of booster pump only when fuel selector changed)

This kind of thing will not effect performance at all really (I program for a living). The problem Oleg has is that each aircraft has different sub system requirements. He just wants to stick to the features common to all and avoid having to spend time implementing the details specific to each type and sub type which is understandable.

While I hope he does make an effort to model the parameters and limitations of each type (boost/rpm/temps etc) I can understand his reluctance to turn this into a study sim (which was never the intention).

What I hope is that third parties can step in later and give study sim status to specific aircraft as has already happened with FSX. I believe strongly that this could be done without affecting the competitive nature of online play. The systems we are asking to be modelled are either only used on the ground or are of a nature that won't give the player an advantage in combat (in fact the player will be MORE likely to die if they fail to follow procedures).

The systems that would give advantage in combat are modelled already - Supercharger, RPM control, Mixture etc. A boost pump or a circuit breaker is not going to sway things one way or another.

[Wutz]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

Last night online I sank 6 capital ships online (which one of the main red objectives listed in the map brief!) and only encountered one lone Blue plane on the last mission which failed to shoot me down before I reached the target area a sank another ship.

There were plenty of Blue planes but as you know 'Wolves' and Dachshund hunt in packs! There were plenty of blue comments on shoulder shooting etc and I was even making remarks about how The Blues must really hate their Navy. I myself was flying buy myself which was very un-realistic. (A majestic Englist Pointer if you may!)

Which only goes to show that a developer can create the most realistic aircraft and environments, The mission designer can craft a intricate and/or historically accurate senario, but unless the people with their bums on their seats show a bit of dicipline it all comes to nought!


Cheers!

I absolutely agree! I have seen that too often enough, a very nice map of Malayia, big furball right in front of a large port, the fighters all busy with checking their gunstats and kill-stealing bull, no one paying attention to a lone low flying bomber that has widely circuted the furball and is attacking from behind. They just where wondering how a bomber got past them, but could not figur that maybe their furball play kept them too distracted.....
I personally doubt this will ever change, at least not on general public servers. Squadron events is of course a differant cup of tea.

[Wutz]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

The Beech 17 is my favourite aircraft. I wonder if they hand swng her backwards to pump the oil out of the cylinders? Is that where the puddle of oil on the floor came from?

Cheers!

Ah yes love those radial engines!
One of my favorites:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSpBw...eature=related

Should add also this one love the Ju52!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8_9r...eature=related

[F19_Klunk]

+1

Skoshi hit the nail.

It IS fun from time to time to just play around and we have to appreciate the fact that people fly combat sim for different reasons, but I wish everyone try get into planned and organized attacks... this is so much more rewarding... and the best way to do that is to join some kind of squadron. I have flown this game since it came out... and starting up F19 in 2003 was the best (or worst as my wife says sometimes with a grin) decision ... it has made me stick to glue to this sim for almost 8 years now, something I would never have done if I had flown solo. Our teamwork in F19/F16 (aka SvAF) is what makes this sim fun.

I think Oleg and Co should think about that and consider if they can promote and encourage squadrons because I believe that you really prolong "life expectancy" of a sim through organised simming.

[bolox]

one thing that i thought wasn't addressed in the interview was 'user generated content' (and let's be very clear here, i'm talking about legal content such as skins, missions etc)
to me this is one of things that not only make a simulation more (re)playable but acts as a 'viral marketing tool'- how many people come to a game through having their interest aroused by seeing say a youtube video?
it also gives users sense of 'having a stake' in the product. hooking the talented people out there who do these things is i feel extremely important:- just imagine IL2 with all the community content removed would there be anywhere to fly online?

[whatnot]

Originally Posted by SlipBall

If I understand Oleg correctly, we will have full system's, management, and controls...what we won't have is realistic starting of the engine's, but. We may even see that someday through a third party effort.

\o/

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by Sutts

I take it you are describing the effects of a worn engine on how easy it is to start? If so then I agree that keeping track of the state of the oil and the degree of wear in the individual components would be way over the top and would affect performance.

However, I think all this could be easily modelled through a simple factor applied at startup that is based on the degree of abuse an engine has suffered. I believe Oleg is already keeping track of the "abuse factor".

~ Glad we agree, though a 1 ~ 10 rating on engine wear, will have some complaining things aren't real enough... back to square one

Originally Posted by Sutts

The procedures we're talking about are pretty straight forward really. Things like:

~ I understand what "procedure" is, some however, seem to think "procedure" should include the effect of a worn seal

Originally Posted by Sutts

While I hope he does make an effort to model the parameters and limitations of each type (boost/rpm/temps etc) I can understand his reluctance to turn this into a study sim (which was never the intention).

iirc, il2 Sturmovik started out very much as study sim and the series has been expanded on and extended from that

[imaca]

Originally Posted by whatnot

Probably not enough volume for a 24x7 running controlled experience but with scheduled flying nights I think it might be easy to get a server filled over and over again.

your "night" is probably my work day...

Originally Posted by F19_Klunk

.....but I wish everyone try get into planned and organized attacks... this is so much more rewarding... and the best way to do that is to join some kind of squadron. I have flown this game since it came out... and starting up F19 in 2003 was the best (or worst as my wife says sometimes with a grin) decision ... it has made me stick to glue to this sim for almost 8 years now, something I would never have done if I had flown solo. Our teamwork in F19/F16 (aka SvAF) is what makes this sim fun.

which I'm sure is fun, but I'm also sure takes a hell of a lot of time.

for a lot of us I suspect that:
fragfest online gamplay=rock
and
TIME needed for any other more co-operative gameplay=hardplace

I used to play Warbirds many eons ago before marriage and kids, not to mention hobbies that involve actual physical activity (mountain biking, cycling etc) made it clear that life just doesn't have enough time.
Throw in living on the far corner of the world with the ping time that goes with it, and online gaming has zero appeal.

An in depth offline campaign, with an interesting and believable AI/environment, which can be saved and continued at leisure is the best I can hope for.
Multiplayer is nice, but I would rather play on a LAN with people I know and a ping approaching real time.
In my view ROF dropped the ball in this regard. I was looking forward to putting one of the kids or wife in the back of a Brisfit and playing against AI on the LAN - that would have got them interested in flying for sure.

[ElAurens]

There are times I get the feeling that some of those on both sides of the "realism" issue are out to convert the other side to their way of game play. A "My way or no way!" stance that is simply not in the best interest of the sim overall.

Isn't this piece of entertainment software big enough to encompass all types of game play?

It always used to be.

You want no cockpit furball action? Go for it. More sales for Oleg, a good thing.

You want to take a half an hour getting all the bombers in an online war lined up perfectly on the runway by tactical number, and fly the whole mission with someone barking orders in your head set? Great! Again, more sales for Oleg.

The easier it is for people to access the sim in the manner that pleases them the better it is for all of us.

This is not rocket science, it's what we do for enjoyment.

Peace.

[Wolf_Rider]

Well said