Friday 2010-12-03 Dev. update and Discussion

[kendo65]

on fmb

I remember being a little surprised and underwhelmed by the starkness of the il2 fmb gui when I first used it - in comparison to the slickness of the rest of the product. But as I started to use it and learned how it worked my opinion changed. It really did what it had to do pretty well. 'Functional' is maybe the right word.

I think the fmb is a bit like the engine and transmission of a car: in comparison to the shiny bodywork and plush upholstered interior it's not particularly pretty, but it's tucked away out of sight of the casual driver / user so it doesn't have to be. I think the new SOW fmb will still feel a bit like 'diving under the bonnet' ('hood' for U.S. readers )

It could no doubt be made to look slightly more 'contemporary' (Windows 7 rather than Win 95 style text boxes, etc) fairly easily, but i'm pleased to recognise the overall feel that I'm used to in il2.

Some comments on the new features:

weathering on the slider is good - presumably we can then choose to keep it off if desired (thought that some of the skinners might prefer to have complete control of this aspect of their skins? - though will that work in the campaign ??)

filtering on the objects / aircraft is welcome

#passes on the Waypoint tab I suspect will be useful

having radio silence as an option suggests that the game will do a very realistic job of simulating limited defensive awareness and allowing the possibility of surprise attacks? I suppose that if radar is being accurately modelled then this needs to be done too. Raises the possibility of some interesting bombing missions - low level, under the radar, strict RT silence!

the ability to set initial formation in the fmb is much needed. As others have asked, I'd be interested in knowing what features are available for controlling large squadron-level and bigger formations as one group?

Look forward to hearing more about the weather and scripting options

[dflion]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

Most mission builders are probably like myself... very excited about this update.

The scripting ability is very important.

I recall trying to build missions campaigns using Pokryskinin air tactics in 1943 flying the P39. I could not do it because all flights would attack en masse. Pokryskinin's tactic was to maintain aircraft in altitude tiers until the air combat advanced. The upper altitude flights would incrementally drop into the combat with greater E onto the 109s and 190s destroying them with the P39 cannon.

This is just one example of course. The AI performance package should have some scripting options as well, to create tactical encounters.

The ability to arrange objects then group and store them as files would be a great help. Groups that would allow including objects with waypoints and other data would make mission building much more efficient. A further help would be to have timing you could set for certain objects within groups of objects at one time. Example : If you are setting delay time and direction for Flak guns at one time for all flak guns.

It would be a great help to have explosions and and other such objects on waypoints so you could build battles in process as you fly into combat areas.

Very important to have navigation ability for player to fly without having to follow waypoints. No matter if AI aircraft fly waypoints. Player flight should not be restricted to flight paths or altitudes. Autopilot for player should be determined with individual player settings on-the-fly.

Most programming tools developed for IL2 were just text editor tools that worked with the *.mis files. The QMT is a good example.

I can go on for pages and pages like many other mission builders.

One thing that would be awesome... to know the FMB will get periodic updates to further facilitate mission builders as new patches and addons are made available.

Thanks Oleg, I'm printing out all the screenshots and carefully studying them to get a more thorough understanding. Oleg there are some excellent mission builders who have posted this thread. It is good to see them here responding to your update.

Some very good observations on your post nearmiss. With the 'scripting trigger point' option you will be able to make much more precise missions that simulate historical situations. It looks like there will be much better control of the AI aircraft.

The ability to arrange and group objects and store them as one collective file would be a great time saver. For example a complete airfield, target area or a large bomber formation with waypoints. Timing is also a major issue in IL-2 mission building - trying to co-ordinate everything to arrive at the same point of time. It also looks like this problem has been addressed in the new FMB.

Independent navigation without following waypoints would be another excellent option with voice command 'trigger points'.

The 'scramble', 'idle', 'Script Spawn C' tick boxes in the 'Group properties' tab most likely answers 'FlatSpinMan's' question on taxi and take-off from dispersed positions.

Anyway the main thing is that very thankfully Oleg has kept the FMB format basically the same, with some very exciting additions. Hopefully he will be able to give us all some more detail without giving too much away?

DFLion

[heywooood]

beautiful update Mr Maddox.

with these few shots you demonstrate rather clearly the quantum leap forward you have achieved over the Il2 FMB.

mission builders should be extremely giddy about these few 'maps' haha

as to the the few who do not yet realize the importance of the features and capabilities of this new tool - just relax - the people who do understand it will be providing you with hours of incredibly imersive action with it, soon after SoW is released! be sure...

I can see already how some of these features will benefit future SoW releases (Pacific Theater nudge nudge) so as to provide a far more seamless progression through all phases of WWII in the air.

[C_G]

One word: "triggers"

Hurray!

[Blackdog_kt]

First of all, thanks for the weekly update. I'm not a mission builder, but i'm a mission flyer and the better the editor is, the more enjoyable the missions we get from our talented community members are going to be. So, thanks for improving the FMB for all of us.

With that being said, let me go on to a couple of specific points...

Originally Posted by Sutts

A very interesting update this week Oleg, thanks. Nice to see the full map at last. Should allow for some great missions. Is there a possibility in future that the map could be extended northwards to include the 12 Group fields or would that be pushing the current hardware too far? It would be nice one day to reenact the 12 group Big Wing attacks.

Someone mentioned specifying waypoint times of arrival and having the FMB work out the necessary speed to get there on time. This would be a great feature and was implemented incredibly well by the Tornado simulator years ago.

As far as I remember, you could do things both ways i.e. specify arrival time OR speed for a waypoint. If the time you specified required an impossible speed to get there, the waypoint track changed colour to red I think. I used to spend hours creating multi-flight attacks which would come in from different directions at different heights and speeds at the critical moment to avoid the blasts from the previous pass. A very enjoyable experience I've got to say.

The map looks very fine resolution which is great. I'm hoping we can zoom in and out smoothly (like google earth), rather than in clunky increments. A slight concern is the size of the waypoint marker....will it still allow for very accurate positioning Oleg?

Thanks Oleg.

Actually you raise a very important point. Since we've been told we'll have accurate systems modelling and that the same rules will aply to the AI (that is, they won't be invulnerable to overheat anymore), there could be cases where flights couldn't reach the waypoints without breaking their engines.

For example, a flight of fighters might be able of a 350mph airspeed but only for brief periods of time (like war emergency power settings), with their sustainable airspeed being much lower. Or, they might be unable to reach higher speeds until burning some fuel and getting lighter.

Throwing the indicated-to-true airspeed conversions and ground speed calculations into the mix could get interesting, as they depend heavily on weather conditions (which are adjustable and also possible to dynamically change).

So, in order to ensure a flight overflying a waypoint at a specified time the mission editor would have to:

1) Calculate the needed ground speed (GS).

2) Reference the GS value with the weather conditions set for the mission and extrapolate the corresponding IAS value the aircraft would need to fly.

3) Check the needed IAS value for the specified leg of the flightplan against the aircraft specifications and operating limits.

I'm not a mission builder but this is very interesting, especially if you consider the possibility of some randomness in the way the weather evolves. For example if you have built a mission that relies on some closely orchestrated attacks and/or depends highly on keeping to the schedule, an occurence as simple as a change in wind direction and strength could make the mission goal very easy to achieve (ie, the flight reaches their target area with time to spare), dangerous or even totally unattainable.

For instance think about this scenarion in a future add-on, due to strong head winds the train carrying the enemy generals has departed when the mosquitos reach the target area and now they have to split up and look for it by following the railway lines. Certainly not a welcome event when a quick "one pass and away" mission turns into having to prolong the amount of time you will be flying low inside enemy airspace.

Originally Posted by Ibis

Great update Oleg, mission building will be much improved, thanks.

One small request:
would it be possible to get the AA to lay a barrage in front of bomber formations as well as directly at them . At the moment most of the AA arrives behind the formation. I think this would add greatly to the visual effect for bomber pilots as they near the end of their final run to the target.
Waiting impatiently for the release of your work.
cheers,
Ibis.

Very nice of you to bring this up. I still remember when i flew my first mission in B17:the mighty 8th (the sequel to the original) back in the day and the reason is just that feature. Having to fly steadily and sedately into an already well developed flak barrage in order to maintain bomb aiming accuracy was one of the most memorable events of all my simulated careers.

[Fafnir_6]

Originally Posted by KOM.Nausicaa

Fafnir, the most difficult thing in IL2 FMB is understanding the interface. But just sit down an afternoon with a good cup and coffee and go through great tutorials like Flying Nutcase's excellent site: http://www.il2-fullmissionbuilder.com/trains.php
...and I promise before the day is over you got it under your knee. Once you got that you'll see how very logic and simple it really is. I am confident that the basic philosophy of the FMB will stay the same in SOW, with added options, or interface commands for stuff that previously only existed in key board shortcuts (like the "rotate group" command I saw in the shortcuts in the screenshots I guess).
Trust me.....learning to fly your plane properly in the sim is a thousand times harder than the FMB.

Cool! Thanks for the link . My point in this thread is that this sort of tutorial should have been included with IL-2 (perhaps not in the original release but certainly in a later patch). Here's hoping this sort of tutorial will show up integrated with BoB either in the initial release or in some future update.

Cheers and thanks again

Fafnir_6

[zaelu]

The FMB should be more "available" to new players or players with less time to study it thoroughly.

IL-2 FMB had many many limitations that were bypass by experienced builders only or even with external tools.

BoB shouldn't have this. BoB should have an explosion of new missions created by as many players as possible. And this is not possible with a FMB that looks like the insides of a nuclear bomb.

Let me make a comparison,

First 3ds max versions were pretty capable in pro's hands... but a lot of creativity was held off by it's hard interface. Once the interface had became more intuitive a lot of new creations had appear from the hands of people that normally would do nothing in the first versions.

FMB should have more appealing interface... those old WIN95 style windows can be changed in few minutes by an artist so they look more 2010 and not like a "oops... this looks dangerous, let's close it".
FMB should have a lot of buttons visible for quick access and not the necessity to click 2-3 menus and tick cryptic options. Contextual pop up menus, buttons, etc.

Take a look at modern game sandbox editors... many are a pleasure to work with and inspire creativity... sure a craw bar can beat nails in the head like a modern colorful rubberized handle hammer... but the kid that would help you normally is just not attracted by the job.

A good starting point would be a merge between DCS "FMB" and IL-2 FMB.

[Flying_Nutcase]

Originally Posted by ECV56_Lancelot

For all those that don't remember, it was confirmed long ago by Luthier that we will be able to add images to the briefings.
Can't tell about videos though!

Roger that Lancelot, thanks for the confirmation. Awesome news.

[Flying_Nutcase]

Originally Posted by Fafnir_6

Cool! Thanks for the link . My point in this thread is that this sort of tutorial should have been included with IL-2 (perhaps not in the original release but certainly in a later patch). Here's hoping this sort of tutorial will show up integrated with BoB either in the initial release or in some future update.

Cheers and thanks again

Fafnir_6

Glad they've been useful. Whatever doesn't come in the Storm of War manual will soon be covered by the community, and a book will rarely better video to demonstrate how-to instructions IMHO, especially for beginners.


Flying Nutcase

[The Kraken]

Thanks for another nice update - very interesting and a welcome change from "yet another burning plane"

I'm also curious about the scripting possibilities, i.e. how much the behaviour of objects can be influenced and what triggers there are. Would be great to have fine control over the AI through the mission files through scripts. But I guess we'll all find out soon.

As for the interface, there is a certain complexity in mission making you cannot design away, but for sure the Il2 editor did have some drawbacks (no copy and paste, no filtering of lists etc.). It looks like at least some of those issues have been taken care of, and as long as that is the case I couldn't care less about how slick the interface looks.