Ethics of pilots fighting for the sides in WWII

[BadAim]

I'm quite impressed with this thread, and not a little surprised. The vast majority of posts here seem to be well considered, and I would be surprised had I not already had a rather high view of the flight sim community in general (save for the occasional twit).

Let me tell you a story that brings my own view on this subject into focus.

While in my school library (I was around 10 at the time) looking for some cool books on WWII with a friend, I made a comment about "those dirty Huns" (My WWII education at the time came largely from Hollywood....38 years ago). One of my teachers had managed to sneak up on us unnoticed and proceeded to read me the riot act about not painting people with a broad brush, and about having respect for these people who found themselves in often impossible situations, and of course the real knife to the heart, that he expected better of me! While I took to heart what he said, and "changed my ways" It was several years before I really understood the import of what he said.....he was a Jew! How could this be? He understood that people do what they have to to survive, and perhaps drag a little dignity along with them.....

I'm a man of strong moral convictions, and I hope that I'm willing to die for them, but there remains the question of if I really will when the time comes. I'll reserve judgment of those who have actually faced the test, until I do.....

[moilami]

Originally Posted by BadAim

I'm a man of strong moral convictions, and I hope that I'm willing to die for them, but there remains the question of if I really will when the time comes. I'll reserve judgment of those who have actually faced the test, until I do.....

Enjoyed your story. I have myself always been puzzled how Jews can be so level headed towards Germans. But maybe they understand something many don't, or maybe they have to deal with things many don't have to.

About the test you mentioned, I can say no test tells anything of the future. So don't wait for one test in order to know anything of the future. Rather keep your humble feets on the ground attitude and don't worry too much. I am sure as I can be in that you would succeed, if we can say so.

[Majo]

This is a game.
This is a game about plane simulation.
This is a game about combat simulation.
Still a game.
What a game...!!!

I can hardly understand how some people try to find ethics in a game.
It really surprises me that, somehow, there are still people around looking for ethics at war.
Not only that, they try to explain us all that their/our ethics are bigger and better than the theirs/others ethics.

I wonder what kind of ethics some people wear around here, in a game forum, while our everyday ethics rest dark in our closet.
Don´t you people watch the news or read the papers?
Don´t you people look out the window and feel how smells outside?

Salutes.

[moilami]

Originally Posted by Majo

This is a game.

I can hardly understand how some people try to find ethics in a game.
It really surprises me that, somehow, there are still people around looking for ethics at war.
Not only that, they try to explain us all that their/our ethics are bigger and better than the theirs/others ethics.

I wonder what kind of ethics some people wear around here, in a game forum, while our everyday ethics rest dark in our closet.
Don´t you people see the news or read the papers?
Don´t you people look out the window and feel how smells outside?

Salutes.

Exactly. But it is good if people think.

Did someone say people now are basicly the same as they were in 50 years ago? Or 2000 years ago? Nothing has changed, except in general people can be more educated. And nothing will change in people in the next 2000 years.

Why? Because evolution doesn't happen quicly. So even though people are more educated, and thus should know better, they are still just the same people as people were 2000 years ago. This means that if enough people begin to be unhappy, bad things will happen. And like that would not be enough, remember that there will be always "holier than thous", and these "holier than thous" has maybe started most of the wars.

So what is interesting is that if people would understand that they would had done whatever what has been done in the history, if they just were there, they might understand that they can still do whatever - even things what has not yet been done, and then they might understand that they are right now actually doing the same bad things. But noooo. They just rather happily live in "holier than thou" illusion; as it has been always, and as it will be always?

Anyway, I have to admit I am actually not very much bothered because there is nothing I can do about it. Yeah, I am one of those "people". I just watch as "things happen". I have justified my behaviour by thinking people will get what they deserve.

So over and out, sorry for my "pessimism", I should actually not post this but since I wrote it already I can post it. Doesn't change anything did I this or that

Salutes and meet you in the virtual sky, as an ally or enemy, you will be respected as either.

[Theshark888]

Originally Posted by BadAim

Actually, the Luftwaffe was probably the least Nazi organization extant in Germany during WWII

I know you are wrong about that one. I have read much about this and the LW was the MOST Nazi organization besides the Waffen SS. Reserach this, you may be surprised!

[Ltbear]

its simply the "mop" syndrome. If you put a decent person into a group of not so decent, the decent person will, at the end follow the not so decents. Not because of politics not because of ethics or moral, but simply because we humans mirror the social envirement we live in. We live in groups because we are not made for solitary life.

If your life and health (Gestapo, social exclusion) requires you to be apart of the masses, you will end up doing it. Its easy to judge the Germans, but think what could/would happen to you and your family if you went against the leader of the masses.

You might not belive in the leaders words, but you follow them. Some because they want to, some because you have to. And yes, in ww2 Germany you had to, or you were dead, thats the fact...nothing else.....follow the others or end up dead.....

The German population and armed forces got told what they needed to know....and before you shoot that statement down...we have an exactly match in our world today...Not by the politics, but how you can controll the population....North Korea...

Put in the wrong situation at the wrong time many of us would do things we simply never thought we could do....

LTbear

[BadAim]

LOL, I have to say that Majo seemed to me to be the rightest one of us all. Then good ole moilami had to come along and ruin it all.

I feel it's probably the most important thing, that people think.

The Dutch, for instance paid a high price for thinking, rather than just giving up and saying, well we're occupied now let's just follow our new leader and fill up those train cars. There too were many Germans who risked it all for what they felt was right rather than just "follow the leader". I'll always hold those people in higher esteem than the followers, regardless of whether I'm willing to pass judgment on them.

Granted, Majo that IL2 is in the end "just a game", but I can't imagine that it wouldn't make people think about these things.

LT Bear, while I understand your point, I hope you understand mine. The simple fact remains that there were many, many people who knew plenty about the "final solution" and chose to do nothing about it. That's how it happened. and that's how it happened. And you can't ignore the fact that Stalin killed at least as many people as Hitler, and he didn't pull a trigger once either.

I have great respect for all who fought bravely (and I fly Axis most of the time). There is some point though where you have to really have to think what will I do if this happens to me? I suppose this is as good a place to ask as any.

And one more can of worms to open..... Don't think it can't happen to you one day, this world has not changed so much.......

[moilami]

Originally Posted by Ltbear

Put in the wrong situation at the wrong time many of us would do things we simply never thought we could do....

LTbear

True. Certainly everyone here would find their place in $machine, or $machine would show what their place in $machine is. And it doesn't matter at all are you now American or Russian or German because nobody here is better than people who lived 50 or 5000 years ago. We are just more lucky.

Or is someone saying that I am American or I am German or I am Russian or I am Finlander and I would not had done what "they" did in $country 50 years to 5000 years ago?

There is certain percent of people who refused to be part of the machine, and the machine showed them their places in the machine (they got shot, for example).

How big percent that was? Lets say it was 0.1%. It was probably smaller, but lets pretend it was that. Now before you begin to boast "me me me me me me me" think one minute are you currently in your machine part of that, for argument's sake, 0.1%? If you are mainstream folk, as the saying go, you would had found your place in the machine. If you are "good law abiding citizen", I think you would had most probably found easily your place in the machine, that is you would had been part of the machine.

Not blaming anyone. Just giving food for a thought.

[BadAim]

Originally Posted by Theshark888

I know you are wrong about that one. I have read much about this and the LW was the MOST Nazi organization besides the Waffen SS. Reserach this, you may be surprised!

I'm just writing from my impressions of nearly 40 years of reading on the subject, I'm fully capable of being wrong. The Waffen SS was actually a very pan European organization by the end of the war, many of it's members much less interested in Nazism, than joining the fight against communism.

In the end I suppose it's silly to argue the point anyway, as they were all on the wrong side.

I think, if you go by official Nazi party records, the Navy actually had the most party members, but of course since the navy was for most of the war represented by the U-boat service I doubt any one here is going to want to short change those guys on their big old clanky iron balled due.

[BadAim]

Originally Posted by moilami

True. Certainly everyone here would find their place in $machine, or $machine would show what their place in $machine is. And it doesn't matter at all are you now American or Russian or German because nobody here is better than people who lived 50 or 5000 years ago. We are just more lucky.

Or is someone saying that I am American or I am German or I am Russian or I am Finlander and I would not had done what "they" did in $country 50 years to 5000 years ago?

There is certain percent of people who refused to be part of the machine, and the machine showed them their places in the machine (they got shot, for example).

How big percent that was? Lets say it was 0.1%. It was probably smaller, but lets pretend it was that. Now before you begin to boast "me me me me me me me" think one minute are you currently in your machine part of that, for argument's sake, 0.1%? If you are mainstream folk, as the saying go, you would had found your place in the machine. If you are "good law abiding citizen", I think you would had most probably found easily your place in the machine, that is you would had been part of the machine.

Not blaming anyone. Just giving food for a thought.

Big LOL, I think we just wrote the same thing at the same time, just in different words! (and probably from very different perspectives)