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#41
11-25-2010, 04:31 PM
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Of course the BF109 was a Nazi machine...it would never have been made, if not for the Nazi's.
The Luftwaffe may have been the least political of the military branches...but it still owed its existence to the policy's of the Nazi party. The individual soldiers of the Luftwaffe may have had different (personal) views on the war and politics...but their machines where the property of the Nazi party (as the pilots where). NOW on to the other issues...putting everything into context. The statement concerning soldiers that where "just following orders". This argument came from the war crimes trials...many, many officers, soldiers and Generals claimed to have been "just following orders". A major issue with this claim is that their are many people who felt that this statement was used as a convenient excuse to evade accountability. But still, this statement has caused many people to ask themselves the question, "what would I do?" This is a very personal question and I will NOT get into the details of my thought process... NOW, we as gamers (and historians) enjoy the perspective and distance of an event that happened (some) 60 years ago. We enjoy and study the machines of war...the tactics, the historical accounts and other details of this history changing event. Many of us admire the technology of the war...but I would hope that this admiration for Axis technology was NOT enhanced by an admiration of Nazi policies. Their is also an aspect of cultural individuality that reveals itself in the planning and execution of the machines of war that is separate from the politics (somewhat separate_lol) of the government...Russian weapons are said to be like farm machines, German weapons are said to be "over engineered", and American weapons are mass produced for the everyman, ect... I hate the Nazis...but I think the BF109 is a very cool fighter plane. A game like "IL2 1946" allows me to enjoy the thrill of flying a deadly (cool looking) killing machine like the BF109 (or FW190) without thinking about the historical politics (and atrocities) of the historical event. Its "just a game"...we as humans are complex muliti-layered organisms, and its up to each of us to decide for ourselves if we are comfortable with the idea of flying (and virtually killing) with a symbol of Nazi oppression. Make no mistake...the German machines of WW2 where symbols of Nazi oppression...they where built with Nazi money, they where used to advance Nazi policy's, and they killed many people... I would continue to detail the specifics of my views on this issue, but I think that the more intelligent of you understand my point. I'm needed for Thanksgiving preparations. A luxury I wouldn't be enjoying without "our" machines of war...which I also enjoy flying. Last edited by proton45; 11-25-2010 at 04:54 PM. 
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#42
11-25-2010, 06:27 PM
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I hate politics. That's why I don't give a xxxx who did what in WW2 when I fly in IL-2. I totally and absolute refuse to care.
But I prefer to fly in Finnish Air Force because I love this poor little country I owe so much, and it is great to defend Helsinki, for example. However long time ago I made a plan that I will fly for whatever nationality my girl is, and thus honour her by "wearing her colours". Last edited by KG26_Alpha; 12-23-2010 at 05:03 PM.
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#43
11-25-2010, 06:55 PM
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I fly for no particular Airforce in IL2, but I have yet to fly for the Japanese past like 3 maybe 4 very short test flights. Thier planes are just sad little things. I just find a plane that works for me and go with it, regardless of nation. I mostly fly the Spitfire, Corsair and P47 though. Sometimes roll out the Me410, 190D13 and 262 when I feel the urge to down some bot bombers +D
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#44
11-25-2010, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
(the Aces High community itself is overall very polite and respectable btw) Last edited by MrBaato; 11-25-2010 at 07:37 PM.
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#45
11-25-2010, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
So you will NOT fly American cuz you feel that American crewmen hated the enemy...but you WILL fly German even though the Nazi's killed and oppressed thousands of innocent civilians? Interesting... Do you feel that ALL German pilots respected the enemy? Do you feel that German pilots did NOT hate the enemy? Just wondering...
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#46
11-25-2010, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Maybe we'll just sit the next big one out  .Splitter
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#47
11-25-2010, 11:24 PM
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i hate war, i hate injusty. i want a world with meritocracy so that who deserves is can go better than otehr but be obliged to help thos others/ those in need. Now i s what i want... not to speak here.
i love warmachines and vehicles but i hate war itself. Cant imagine it. in my humble existence i pass many hours thinking about the duty etc things and other key questions about our histry and our todays multitaking society. i always have been afashinated by such discussions. the same thing is filosofy lesson... although that i hate it and never wanted to do it ( but here i want to discuss) i become completely immersed in the ''logic'' of this lesson and people like Sokrates. he had an ideal.. a logic one that i respect and died for it, he was accused with an unlegit accusation but he said to his friend that ''you have to obey in laws even if they are injuste'' making me thinking that only if you see the real effect of a something , only tehn you will fight to change it( anotehr reason is that in philosophy i think their way of thinking can be interpretaded in your most constructive way) another method sokrates used, teh teacher told me yesterday was irony: in a discussion about what is that etc he pretended to be affascinated or that he knew nothing about teh subgect so that teh otehr person felt in advantage and then demolish him with questions.( the teacher used for exapmple the racism on colour and showed us how completeley dismantled it with just a question and an observation) the good thing about all these things is that i get in contact with many point of views taht help me reach a neutral not biased opinion.It happened that in some cases i defended some accusation wwii germany saying that bla bla bla is a cause of unemploeyement and misery. I condone teh idea of nazism but it was an idea that grew up in an economicaly compromised germany coming after wwi and the treaty of versailles and as most of people in hard times become easy victims of propaganda for teh desperate need of a change. i have to accept that so that in teh future we could learn from teh past and avoid cases smliar to that. the only thing that i admired of 1900 wars was the air as it was considere as soemone said a sport to show your skill etc(ups, didnt said it correct). i admired the story of the red baron deaths, liek hitting all 7 or 8 planes before crashing and i always think that on war, soldier or pilot you are regardered as it or not for its political beliefs. i think also that i it was possible all soldier would directly attack enemies politicals rather tehri puppets. Maybe i sound confused.... it 24.00 o clock and i do not speak good english. It my humble opinion and you know i can always iimprove it. as i said i like every vehicle and technology so i fly regadless of the colour. I respect every soldier that fought in war, although im 17 and neve rlived in such situation i try to understand all this and i can say that sometimes is really difficult. these thread really remade my awareness of the danger that we are having in our modern world. the tragic thing is that some people( mostly the ''high'' ones) forgot to take lessons from our pasts and continue to take or world to ( dunno teh world, i use one that might be eccagerated) oblivion. one of the very best community and high quality one! really good job. Ps sorry for the wrong written ''the'' teh, and that taht someone told me that we are empty jars and that they fill us with ideas, knowledge and truth etc... i prefer to think that expecially today we are full jars and that they or we have to make the truth , the right etc emerge Last edited by el0375; 11-25-2010 at 11:33 PM.
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#48
11-25-2010, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
German WWII veterans seem to garner a great deal of respect and interest whenever they pop up at warbird airshows and the like in the States. What were we saying about stereotyping and tarring everyone with the same brush?
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#49
11-26-2010, 01:17 AM
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Gunther Rall was hounded by the Gestapo many times because his wife was helping Jews. Nothing was done however because he was such an asset. One of the commanders of a JG 53 unit was married to a Jewish girl, Goring had them all put this stupid red band of same around the nose of their 109s, you can see it in the SOW video. Gordon Gallob was a hated Jadgeschwader leader because he was such a fanatic. He followed rules to the letter and all he did was get many fighter pilots killed. The big joke is his father was Scotish. He probably wanted to over prove himself to the brass. In here anytime you say positive things about a German you'll get blasted witch is understandable but theirs some that were very good men, Trautloft, Galland, Rall, Molders, Barkhorn, Steinhoff, Spoden, Neumann. They were just fighting for they bad side. Any smart thinking man would realize that the leader of his country is crazy when men are eating the horses and he's saying we are going win Russia. You keep fighting with your friends and for your country.
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#50
11-26-2010, 02:20 AM
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Another thing about JG 53: Goring ordered Stab/JG 53 to remove the Pik As from their planes because he heard a rumor that the commander of the flight's wife was Jewish. Stab/JG 53 responded by also removing the hakenkreuz from their aircraft. Their protest worked, and they got to put the Pik As back on their aircraft.
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