Real World BoB Hurricane Pilot's views on SOW

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Triggaaar

I'm all for any Vets getting money for their stories or whatever they want to give, but not for an endorcement, as it cheapens their opinion - ie, "here's $x if you say you like this" gets in the way of them giving their honest opinion.

Not sure if they really remember all details, it was 70 years ago...

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by swiss

Not sure if they really remember all details, it was 70 years ago...

Do not discount these men’s memories. The events that occurred were very intense and indelibly etched themselves into these veterans minds.

In June this year I was in New Guinea, walking the Kokoda Track when our party met up with the author Bill James. He wrote a guide book for people walking the track that went over the various Battles. (Title "A field Guide to the KOKODA TRACK: an historical guide t the lost battlefields" ISBN 9780977570409)

Several years ago he had flown out a number of the veterans of the Battle of Brigade Hill (including my father) to the battle site by helicopter. Bill James walked the men through the battle site according to the maps and official history accepted at the time. Some of the veterans including my dad told him that he was wrong and the action that they were involved in happened a hundred meters further up the hill. Unfortunately time, the weather and issues with the helicopter forced them to fly back to Port Moresby that day.

On a later trip armed with metal detectors, Bill James and his team (including our groups guide) went over the battle field and from the location of ordinance and spent bullet cases determined that the evidence matched up with these men’s 65 year old memories closer than official histories that were written up a year or two after the battle!

The day before we left for New Guinea, Dad drew up a mud map of the area of the battle that he was involved in. This map drawn from 68 year old memories matched almost exactly to the location we walked through.

Many of the veteran’s memories of events are still quite lucid!
Cheers!

[PeterPanPan]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

Do not discount these men’s memories. The events that occurred were very intense and indelibly etched themselves into these veterans minds ... Many of the veteran’s memories of events are still quite lucid!
Cheers!

Totally agree. Listen to anything Geoff Wellum has to say. He remembers things as clearly as if they were yesterday. He said "People ask me, how do you remember those things from all that time ago? I say, how can I ever forget?"

PPanPan

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by PeterPanPan

Totally agree. Listen to anything Geoff Wellum has to say. He remembers things as clearly as if they were yesterday. He said "People ask me, how do you remember those things from all that time ago? I say, how can I ever forget?"

PPanPan

Every time I hear the stories that these men tell, my respect for them grows. Thanks to men like them I've never had to put myself in harms way.

The most unfortunate thing about that is that in the past I've taken too many things for granted and haven't even thought about the sacrifices that these men have had to endure for me to live the way I can.

Slowly as I'm getting older and now have got kids of my own, I am slowly realising the price that these men paid in their youth.

Cheers!

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

Do not discount these men’s memories.
Many of the veteran’s memories of events are still quite lucid!
Cheers!

Look, the last thing I want is to degrade/belittle them.

But: If you asked me about things that happened 20years ago, most of it is blurry - and black and white.
I could'nt tell for sure.
20years.

Or eyewitnesses in a criminal case, they cannot remember all details, they may think they remember, but their mind is just playing a trick on them.

That's how our brain is built, can't change this fact.

I also had a close relative who served in the 8th army as tank driver, I sure enjoyed listening to all that stories - but from a objective point of view....you can't tell if it's all true, somethings could be made up by the brain, unintentionally.

Edit:
We have a guy here in the form who interviews Russian veteran pilots.
I you read the interviews, you find several corrections by the interviewer - some facts were just plain wrong in the memories of the vets.
Do you think they "lied" intentionally"?

[katdogfizzow]

My experience in IL2 is the same as this vets...fly up to a 111 like that and you're going down, no doubt about it

[winny]

Originally Posted by swiss

Look, the last thing I want is to degrade/belittle them.

But: If you asked me about things that happened 20years ago, most of it is blurry - and black and white.
I could'nt tell for sure.
20years.

Or eyewitnesses in a criminal case, they cannot remember all details, they may think they remember, but their mind is just playing a trick on them.

That's how our brain is built, can't change this fact.

I also had a close relative who served in the 8th army as tank driver, I sure enjoyed listening to all that stories - but from a objective point of view....you can't tell if it's all true, somethings could be made up by the brain, unintentionally.

Edit:
We have a guy here in the form who interviews Russian veteran pilots.
I you read the interviews, you find several corrections by the interviewer - some facts were just plain wrong in the memories of the vets.
Do you think they "lied" intentionally"?

This isn't a story it's a tactical fact. If anyone knows what would get you killed it's a guy who watched people getting killed doing it.

EDIT: One thing nobody's mentioned is the fact that you can't get killed in SoW, by burning to death or being shot in the head, or boiled alive by glycol this discussion is completley disregarding the fact that there has to be a person involved the way the vet did it...

[swiss]

Originally Posted by winny

In fact it's a downright insult to disregard the stories in defence of a game, because they were risking thier lives.

You're right, only - no one did.

Other than that, I tend to trust paper over memories.

well, whatever.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by swiss

You're right, only - no one did.

Other than that, I tend to trust paper over memories.

well, whatever.

Not implied by me!

I think people are entitled to be passionate about their views and in some cases both sides of a discussion can be right or wrong. (or both at the same times which is confusing! )

I tend to find the paper is good at recording the big picture of an event, but there are a lot of little details that are next to impossible to record.

It's these little details and anecdotes that I find fascinating

Cheers!

[BadAim]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

Not implied by me!

I think people are entitled to be passionate about their views and in some cases both sides of a discussion can be right or wrong. (or both at the same times which is confusing! )

I tend to find the paper is good at recording the big picture of an event, but there are a lot of little details that are next to impossible to record.

It's these little details and anecdotes that I find fascinating

Cheers!

That is exactly right, I have found that individual servicemen oftentimes have little understanding of what was going on around them in the big picture, but can recall the most minute details about their own little corner of the war.

I also also can relate to the pressure of the event impressing the memories deeply. I too can remember few things from 20 years ago, but I remember very clearly 28 years ago having my Camaro sideways at 110mph on the Highway sliding towards a bridge footing! I remember pulling off to the breakdown lane and getting out to walk off the adrenaline, much like the pilot in the Yak 50 thread. I can still taste that tinge of nickel on my tongue.
I have no Idea what the plate number on that car was, or the date of the incident, or any other myriad facts, but I can take you to the spot and describe what happened.

I guess my point is that the cold eye of the historian can only tell you a part of the story, and a necessary part, but it's the firsthand accounts that give history it's 'flavor'.