Interview with WWII reconaissance pilot

[K_Freddie]

Shark.. I really think you must be some really naive/indoctrinated person, or just a troll.
You should consult a variety of different sources of information, especially if these sources are a conflict of interest.

[Sven]

Originally Posted by Theshark888

Of course. Should we have just let our Western-way of civilization collapse or held hostage by some third world despot gaining control of over half the oil reserves in the world?? It is very easy to sit in your apartment in Bern or The Hague and complain how the evil Americans are starting illegal wars. We are not happy about policing the world but this goes back to getting dragged into two world wars and not letting that happen again

Iraq was not some "innocent" country that the USA invaded to take over their oil reserves

If we were as terrible as many in the Euro-left believe, we would have taken over Iraq oil and not paid them a cent for it...we didn't even get a discount on it

Ah yes of course, the american way to roll, well.. roll .. more like 'shoot'. Anyway, as long as I can see South Park for my weekly laugh all is just fine.

I have to agree though, the Iraq war was not wrong, the US covered it up a bit, what at some point is understandable.

[Triggaaar]

Originally Posted by Splitter

Sure we could be attacked but in a conventional war with another major power, we would not lose.

Indeed, and likewise if you attacked another major power in the same way, you would not win. Fortunately neither situation is about to happen, I am simply stating that your earlier statement ("NO single entity...no two countries even....are going to beat us militarily") was not correct without specific context.

As to the continual "war for oil" comments by some (not you necessarily)....let's face it, if we went to war to prevent an atrocity we would be accused of colonialism. If we went to war to kill an enemy before he attacked us, we would be accused of aggression. If we went to war to protect the world's oil supply we would be accused of profiteering. If we went to war to protect an ally we would be accused of interventionism.

Well you weren't generally criticised for going to war with Iraq in '91, and the US don't face the criticism for the last war with Iraq alone. But it is hardly surprisng (or undesirable) that going to war attracts criticism.

Originally Posted by Theshark888

It is very easy to sit in your apartment in Bern or The Hague and complain how the evil Americans are starting illegal wars.

Who here is doing that?

We are not happy about policing the world but this goes back to getting dragged into two world wars and not letting that happen again

What? The US joined the second world war because it was attacked. No allied country wanted to be involved, and some joined without the threat of attack.

Iraq was not some "innocent" country that the USA invaded to take over their oil reserves

Has anyone here said that Iraq were innocent?

It is about time that the European Union started to do some heavy lifting and protect themselves and their interests militarily. When the oilfields in the Middle East are lost, the Euros will be in much worse shape than North America. Stop knocking your Ally and start worrying about the real threats to European civilization.

Who are you talking to? I'm British and I am aware who the threats to civilisation are and are not. I share the same opinions on human rights as most western civilisations. I know that the British were lied to in order to progress with the last gulf war, and I do not knock the US any more than I do the British, and I'm not even close to a Euro leftie. And as for heavy lifting, Britain (as EU example) has done far more than it should, given that it is a tiny mino.

The US do put themselves forward as world police, and like all other countries, the US do things that they shouldn't, and that are sometimes in the interest of their leaders, and not the people from their, or any other country. The US therefore gets a lot of criticism from around the world, mostly undeserved, but sometimes fair. I appreciate that this puts a lot of Americans on the defensive (it's natural to be defensive when criticised, particularly when a lot of the criticism is unjust), but don't assume that everyone that thinks one war was unjustified suddenly thinks that the US are evil and not an ally.

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by Triggaaar

Who are you talking to? I'm British and I am aware who the threats to civilisation are and are not. I share the same opinions on human rights as most western civilisations. I know that the British were lied to in order to progress with the last gulf war, and I do not knock the US any more than I do the British, and I'm not even close to a Euro leftie. And as for heavy lifting, Britain (as EU example) has done far more than it should, given that it is a tiny mino.

The US do put themselves forward as world police, and like all other countries, the US do things that they shouldn't, and that are sometimes in the interest of their leaders, and not the people from their, or any other country. The US therefore gets a lot of criticism from around the world, mostly undeserved, but sometimes fair. I appreciate that this puts a lot of Americans on the defensive (it's natural to be defensive when criticised, particularly when a lot of the criticism is unjust), but don't assume that everyone that thinks one war was unjustified suddenly thinks that the US are evil and not an ally.

Just to set the record straight, a quote you attributed to me in your last post was a post from someone else that I quoted .

Your last paragraph is pretty much spot on.

If you look around, there is a LOT of US bashing going on. When I say bashing, I am not talking about questioning foreign policy here and there, I am talking about "bigoted" comments painting the US intents as evil. We go to war for oil, we kill civilians will nilly, we pollute the world, we try to turn everyone into Christians, you name it. And when I say there is a lot of hatred in the western world for the US, you know there will be a bunch of people who read it and think, "the US brought it all on themselves". Some may even type that if they were openly honest.

The crud we endure on pretty much any forum (or the world stage for that matter) is no different than "bigoted", ignorant statements that could be made about any nationality. Yet, it seems ok to the bash the US even when such statements about other nationalities would not be tolerated.

It just gets old, as you said.

Funny thing is, a lot of the people who tend to espouse these close minded views preach tolerance for every other situation lol.

Anyway, good thread even if it did wander far and wide. I'm out, back to airplanes.

Splitter

[Triggaaar]

Originally Posted by Splitter

Just to set the record straight, a quote you attributed to me in your last post was a post from someone else that I quoted .

Fixed.

If you look around, there is a LOT of US bashing going on...
And when I say there is a lot of hatred in the western world for the US, you know there will be a bunch of people who read it and think, "the US brought it all on themselves". Some may even type that if they were openly honest.

The crud we endure on pretty much any forum (or the world stage for that matter) is no different than "bigoted", ignorant statements that could be made about any nationality. Yet, it seems ok to the bash the US even when such statements about other nationalities would not be tolerated.

I think it's a viscious circle (lots of generalisations to follow, all IMO only of course). The US are unfairly criticised so much that many Americans are permanatly on the defensive, and don't readily accept the bits of criticism that are justified. Not accepting fair criticism makes on-lookers feel that Americans are arrogant and believe they are better than everyone, and have a given right to police the world etc.

Most Europeans that criticise the US are aware that generally what the US stands for is good. For example, in the World Cup in 1998, the US palyed Iran, and our pubs were packed with people (including me) supporting Iran. That's because it's funny, and we like supporting the underdog. But don't mis-interpret that into thinking we agree with Iran's values more than the US's.

[Madfish]

Question: What does the Iraq war in common with WWII reconaissance pilots?

And regarding the Iraq war. Like any war, wars are ALWAYS unjust for the receiving party. A soldier has to know that he risks his life. It's not that president Bush came with a gun and forced people to join the Army and fight for him.
However, the civillians that got killed could not decide. The rapes, the abuses, chemical weapons, uranium enriched ammunition, etc.
I'd say the population of Iraq took a pounding. Before the war, during the war and now during the "cleanup" phase as well.

So the only real answer is: The war has nothing to do with rconaissance pilots. It's completely off topic.
And the second answer is probably: only time will tell if the Iraq war was "just" or just a slaughter.

No one, aside from time, can tell if good comes out of a war or not. And please keep in mind, humans are NOT the only lifeforms on this planet. Even if the "good" side wins and continues to literally destory the whole planet nothing is won by that.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by Theshark888

I believe that Hitler would have been overthrown at some point. There was no need for the Allies to advance all the way to Berlin...once the Rhine was encircled, Germany would have collapsed. The Siegfried Line was not all that it was cracked up to be.

Well, he wasn't.
Germany would not have allowed the encirclement of the Rhineland, and intelligence regarding the Siegfried line is available now, whereas we don't know what level of intelligence information the allies had then.

We may as well debate whether if Gavrilo Princip had been unsuccessful in assassinating Franz Ferdinand, there would have been no First War, no Treaty of Versailles, no rise of Hitler to power and thus no Second War.

What happened, happened. Endless debate of 'what if's' ain't gonna change much.
If you consider it Britain and France's faults that things escalated to the level they did, carry on, but I still think this is far too simplistic a perspective.

Anyway, back to America......

[Theshark888]

Originally Posted by Dutch_851

Anyway, back to America......

Good conversation guys...sometimes it's good to "mix it up" and defend the homeland a little

The "evil" USA bit does get old after a while, but it is to be expected on a mixed US/Euro forum such as this and all over the internet. Don't be shocked if an American stands up once in a while and acts "arrogant." I guess it is so ingrained in some Euros minds that they don't even realize that they are bashing the US and it does put us in a constant defensive mode as Triggaar said

That's all for me, can't wait for SOW to be released

[Triggaaar]

Originally Posted by Theshark888

The "evil" USA bit does get old after a while, but it is to be expected on a mixed US/Euro forum such as this and all over the internet...
I guess it is so ingrained in some Euros minds that they don't even realize that they are bashing the US

Come on, has someone in this thread made any suggestion that the US are evil? Could you quote where someone is bashing the US? (I'm not saying they haven't I just haven't seen it, and I don't think I have, so please quote where it's happened)

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by Triggaaar

Come on, has someone in this thread made any suggestion that the US are evil? Could you quote where someone is bashing the US? (I'm not saying they haven't I just haven't seen it, and I don't think I have, so please quote where it's happened)

Trig, I am not going to call out any individual and I specifically wrote my post (not the one you quoted but mine was similar) in an effort not to offend any individual.

My guess is that if you did a search on this board on "oil", "US", "Iran", "Iraq", "Israel", and some other associated terms, you would see what some have said. Sometimes the comments are direct, sometimes code words are used.

Hey, it's ok though. I understand a lot of the criticism and some of it I agree with (dangling participle anyone?). What I never understand is blind prejudice. I'm happy to carry on any foreign policy discussions or simple exchanges of ideas via PM or elsewhere. While this discussion has been good AND civil, unfortunately this thread got horribly derailed and as a participant, I apologize to the OP.

For the record, I love talking to people from elsewhere in the world. We generally have a lot of totally different experiences and perspectives and I usually find such discussions educational and interesting.

Splitter