Orcs on the March thread

[atlatea]

I don't think anyone is debating the reduction in damage as being useful. It is just ridiculous that one has to go that far just to BARELY survive?

Yeah, depends on the stack make up. I think rakush's team has a > 55K leadership stack in there somewhere.

Ugh, blind and sheep are so expensive together. How much mana do you usually have? Isn't that like 60 mana? I guess that isn't too bad since it lasts for 2 rounds, but ugh.

Witch hunter has no leadership cap and would be nice here, but after a certain point you still need killer units.

You forgot a spell called target, instant disable all goblin shaman and orc shaman stacks in battlefield, though againts orc shaman, you must enter orc shaman's move range.

Anyway, orc shaman astral dmg is not that high, goblin shaman does way more dmg, so just cast target then sheep/blind, or vice versa.

Choose beetwen Sheep or blind (depends on your situation).

Well, dryads, witch hunter, target, sheep/blind are good againts those shamans. You can have no loss battle againts scrounger using those things.

edit:
I'm trying witch hunter, it seems they're best for warrior and paladin, as they're still killer because of their number (idk about mage).

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by atlatea

You forgot a spell called target, instant disable all goblin shaman and orc shaman stacks in battlefield, though againts orc shaman, you must enter orc shaman's move range.

Anyway, orc shaman astral dmg is not that high, goblin shaman does way more dmg, so just cast target then sheep/blind, or vice versa.

Choose beetwen Sheep or blind (depends on your situation).

Well, dryads, witch hunter, target, sheep/blind are good againts those shamans. You can have no loss battle againts scrounger using those things.

edit:
I'm trying witch hunter, it seems they're best for warrior and paladin, as they're still killer because of their number (idk about mage).

Ah, everyone talks about target, but I rarely use it. So, if the enemy CAN hit the target with normal attacks, it will? That's why you pointed out the movement range for the shaman, right?

So you mean it will disable their special attacks because they will be forced to attack normally? Hmmm. yes that could be very handy.

Yeah, I already beat scrounger with no loss, but this will be much easier, thanks!

[BB Shockwave]

Yep, Target will make the enemy use a melee or ranged (whichever is their normal attack) against the Target-ed unit. Be mindful that Mind Immune units are not affected, AFAIK.

Also, Blood Shamans have the Power of the Horde, which is also a very nasty spell, though it does only attack one unit. I hope the english patch is released soon, because right now, even a few Goblin/Blood Shamans can cause much more damage then what'd be acceptable for units of their level. Regular Goblins are over-powered too, it is almost like their axes ignore physical resistance and defense, especially when they use their slam-back attack.

I still use Witch Hunters for some tough fights, but sadly, even with a Paladin, their leadership/damage ratio is not too high. They are best used to attack units who already retaliated, as their attack/defense and damage, even with their beneficial spells, is low. Their only saving grace is their low HP and magic resistance. I found them immensely usefull againts Gremlin Towers, as the Friendly and Evil Gremlins will often cast their debuff spells on them, and since it disappears immediately, the next tower will cast it again on them, and so on...

[atlatea]

Ah, everyone talks about target, but I rarely use it. So, if the enemy CAN hit the target with normal attacks, it will? That's why you pointed out the movement range for the shaman, right?

So you mean it will disable their special attacks because they will be forced to attack normally? Hmmm. yes that could be very handy.

Yeah, I already beat scrounger with no loss, but this will be much easier, thanks!

Yep, and goblin shaman use ranged attack, which always able to hit your targeted stack, making them 100% never use their astral attack.

As for orc shaman, its astral attack dmg seems far inferior to that of the goblin shaman, so i usually disable goblin shaman first.

Target is overpowered spell.

As for scrounger, just make her goblin shaman and orc shaman never use their astral attack (especially the goblin) and you have no loss battle, you probably also need to have very high defense (and attack too).

edit:

I hope the english patch is released soon, because right now, even a few Goblin/Blood Shamans can cause much more damage then what'd be acceptable for units of their level. Regular Goblins are over-powered too, it is almost like their axes ignore physical resistance and defense, especially when they use their slam-back attack.

So, the defense ignoring thing about goblin and orc is because of bug? I mean the dev never intended to work like that?

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by atlatea

So, the defense ignoring thing about goblin and orc is because of bug? I mean the dev never intended to work like that?

"""
I hope the english patch is released soon, because right now, even a few Goblin/Blood Shamans can cause much more damage then what'd be acceptable for units of their level. Regular Goblins are over-powered too, it is almost like their axes ignore physical resistance and defense, especially when they use their slam-back attack.
""

Highly doubt it. It is just they wanted to make it strong for when you use them, but they never considered the balance issues when it is used against you, especially at higher levels of play like Impossible where the enemy routinely has waay too much leadership.

I mean, not much point in calling it Orcs on the March if the orcs blatantly sucked.

I think you are probably underestimating the Goblin's TRUE power. They were always potentially strong, because they have very unique abilities.

a) Zeroing In
b) Giant Killer (not sure if this was in the original or not)

Zeroing In means that every round the goblin attacks, his attack goes up by 5. Yes, I said every round. That means as time approaches infinity, the goblin will EASILY achieve +60 attack over your defense, so he will always do 3X more damage than his base, even with a normal attack.

This is not even considering the new orc modifications. Those mods just gave him a chance to do poison damage and a +1 to damage, which is a fairly powerful buff, but nothing compared to its native skill.

Giant Killer means if you dare to use a level 5 to hit it, get ready to take an additional 30% damage from the goblins.

Again, abilities that were around before the modifications.

It is also why my Super Goblin stack is the most damaging stack I have ever created. Thanks to "Unstoppable" ability (again, an ability that existed before the Orcs on the March patch), I have a chance to attack multiple times in a single round. (At least twice so far, not sure if it is capped).

Once my goblins hit +60 Attack over Defense, with 100% crit, I do about 12K per hit easily. And this is not even at maximum leadership yet. Merely like level 37. I've probably already thrown up to 18K per hit too. I think I already projected dealing close to 20-30K by end game. Throw in Orc's "Second command" ability and a Paladin's Second Wind, I throw another 12K+ damage again. Each time I throw, I have a chance to throw yet again and again.

I'm glad they are buffing Goblins more in the next patch. Mwhaha.

[BB Shockwave]

I'm sorry, but that's not what the problem is.

I was facing about 100-120 Goblins in two stacks, and have cast Oily Cloud on them, reducing their ranged damage by 50%. Now, attacking with their ranged attack, they did about 120 damage to my Archmages (on the other half of the screen), who had a pretty high defense. Then, next round... they used these slam-attacks, which killed about 2-3 Archmages for every hit! I checked the descriptions, that attack should not do much more damage then their regular ranged attack, so my guess is, it simply ignores the Oil Cloud de-buff. Oh yeah, and this was round 2, so Zeroing In should not be brought up here. Giant Killer is new for Crossworlds, btw.

For Goblin Shamans, again, the Astral Damage is one thing - sure, no-one has resistance against it. However, it also works as a spell works, cast by your hero - meaning, there is no "attack roll" and the enemy's defense is not taken into consideration. And that is unfair, and should not work this way, because every other spell cast by your creatures so far in AP and TL took defense into consideration - I'm thinking of the Dancing Axes of the Shaman, or the Reign of Fire of the Black Dragons, or the Life Leech of the Demonologist. The Goblin Shaman's attack works like an astral-damage spell cast by your hero, which would indeed not take Defense into consideration. To add insult to injury, the Goblins can even act AFTER they have cast this horribly overpowered spell!

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

I'm sorry, but that's not what the problem is.

I was facing about 100-120 Goblins in two stacks, and have cast Oily Cloud on them, reducing their ranged damage by 50%. Now, attacking with their ranged attack, they did about 120 damage to my Archmages (on the other half of the screen), who had a pretty high defense. Then, next round... they used these slam-attacks, which killed about 2-3 Archmages for every hit! I checked the descriptions, that attack should not do much more damage then their regular ranged attack, so my guess is, it simply ignores the Oil Cloud de-buff. Oh yeah, and this was round 2, so Zeroing In should not be brought up here. Giant Killer is new for Crossworlds, btw.

For Goblin Shamans, again, the Astral Damage is one thing - sure, no-one has resistance against it. However, it also works as a spell works, cast by your hero - meaning, there is no "attack roll" and the enemy's defense is not taken into consideration. And that is unfair, and should not work this way, because every other spell cast by your creatures so far in AP and TL took defense into consideration - I'm thinking of the Dancing Axes of the Shaman, or the Reign of Fire of the Black Dragons, or the Life Leech of the Demonologist. The Goblin Shaman's attack works like an astral-damage spell cast by your hero, which would indeed not take Defense into consideration. To add insult to injury, the Goblins can even act AFTER they have cast this horribly overpowered spell!

Hmm I thought Giant Killer was available for the Furious Goblins at a minimum, but it doesn't seem to be in the manual, so I guess it is new.

Ok, so it is a normal ability, not a "ranged attack", so it bypassed your oil cloud. Sounds fair, considering it drains adrenaline from the goblins. Just call it... "Magic Missile."

Huh? I am fairly certain Dancing Axes is NOT affected by defense (the Defense Score), neither is Reign of Fire, or Life Leech. They are only affected by the unit's resistances, no more, no less. Most higher level monsters do have native resistances, so they might seem to take less damage, but pretty sure you can have a Defense of 999, and it will not change the damage one iota.

So, there is nothing outrageous about the ability bypassing the Defense stat. It just does way too much damage.

You could argue that the computer should NOT be allowed to start with Adrenaline Level 2 with orc armies. I'm not completely sure if this is a passive ability of the Blood shaman or not. If it is, then it is merely a bad game mechanic, where they never considered how deadly this would be on the other end of the stick.

[atlatea]

Hmm I thought Giant Killer was available for the Furious Goblins at a minimum, but it doesn't seem to be in the manual, so I guess it is new.

Ok, so it is a normal ability, not a "ranged attack", so it bypassed your oil cloud. Sounds fair, considering it drains adrenaline from the goblins. Just call it... "Magic Missile."

Huh? I am fairly certain Dancing Axes is NOT affected by defense (the Defense Score), neither is Reign of Fire, or Life Leech. They are only affected by the unit's resistances, no more, no less. Most higher level monsters do have native resistances, so they might seem to take less damage, but pretty sure you can have a Defense of 999, and it will not change the damage one iota.

So, there is nothing outrageous about the ability bypassing the Defense stat. It just does way too much damage.

You could argue that the computer should NOT be allowed to start with Adrenaline Level 2 with orc armies. I'm not completely sure if this is a passive ability of the Blood shaman or not. If it is, then it is merely a bad game mechanic, where they never considered how deadly this would be on the other end of the stick.

Well ,the fact proves that you're completely wrong my friend, BB Shockwave is the one that is right. Ok, i'll do some detailed analysis.

All abilities never bypass defense, ok then, try to use your black dragon reign of fire to hit giant for example, then hit peasant with the same black dragon, do you notice the very high dmg difference, note that both have 0 fire resistance, well... how do you explain that? that's because of giant and peasant high defence difference.

Besides the astral attack and probably the other orcs abilities, there are no abilities (be it skills or talents) that bypass defence status.

Goblin axe thrower in AP doesn't have Unstopable ability, only Zeroing. Check it again for yourself (revert to your AP campaign).

Again you're wrong, dancing axe never bypass defence status, at least in AP, though it seems the same in CW, my lv 5 stacks never bothered by dancing axe, even if it's from hundreds of orc shaman, yet astral attack from goblin shamans and orc shamans (especially goblin shaman) does much more dmg than dancing axe, i have 70% astral resistance and 50% magic resistance. However that dacing axe hit very hard to my low lv stacks, which explain they don't bypass defence status like astral attack.

Note that dancing axe and astral attack of goblin shaman have same damage, yet the astral attack does way more damage than dancing axe. The only explainable reason is that astral attack bypass defence, while dancing axe are not. I know with the same leadership, you can field more goblin shaman, so even if their damage are the same, goblin hit harder, indeed, but why the diffence is so high.

Note that goblin shaman leadership is 130, orc shaman is 200. Let's say you have 4k leadership (20 orc shamans, 30 goblin shamans) and your target has 0 astral and 0 magic resistance, without considering the defence stat, at same leadership goblin shaman should hit with 50% more damage than dancing axe to target with , but the fact proves otherwise, i mean goblin hit like 250-400 % more dmg than dancing axe, reasonable explanation? Astral attack bypass defence.

Ok, i don't care if those shamans are enemies or orc are overpowered (i admitt orcs are the most overpowered race now), but the problem is player can field them. Because orcs are so overpowered, most KB players especially those that never play 2 previous installment, tend to stick with orcs. This limit the troop choice of this game which destroy one of the purpose and beauty of the game.

[shqiponja_hayabusa]

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

Yeah, I already beat scrounger with no loss, but this will be much easier, thanks!

Now cmon, that's impossible. I am sorry for my disbelief but Scrounger has a lethal level of danger in my current campaign. And I am pretty sure that you can't make all of her units miss from causing you enough damage from which you can't recover completely. Even with paladins and other res units. I am trying to beat her without many casualties but it's very hard, let alone with no loss.
Care to give you strategy, or what units did you use? Thank you

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by shqiponja_hayabusa

Now cmon, that's impossible. I am sorry for my disbelief but Scrounger has a lethal level of danger in my current campaign. And I am pretty sure that you can't make all of her units miss from causing you enough damage from which you can't recover completely. Even with paladins and other res units. I am trying to beat her without many casualties but it's very hard, let alone with no loss.
Care to give you strategy, or what units did you use? Thank you

Atlatea did it too and detailed his methods, which seemed to be more efficient and it sounds like you used a Paladin.

I was a Mage, Scrounger starts off as Invincible for my Level 55 Mage, so I am going to assume you are a Paladin or Warrior.

I don't think my method was particularly elegant, but this is what I did.

My army make up was
Rune Mages, Trolls, Orc Chieftain, Black Dragons, and Shaman.

Rune Mages was probably my key saving unit.

I would basically just delay/tank as much as possible. I know it would feed them into max Adrenaline (and higher), but it was the method I went with since I could not easily revive them all if I lost more than 70% of any stack in round 1.

The enemy really liked killing my rune mages, so I would Phantom them ASAP.

I would even use Mystic Egg a couple of times and released at least two Black Holes. I might have threw one Ball of Lightning, but again, my main concern was ensuring any other unit was soaking hits but my own.

Shaman would mass heal the level 5 units with dancing axes (thus, saving me from consuming a revive with the rune mages), OR throw a ward in front of them JUST to suck up one hit.

My units were all high level, so I would use phantom rune mages to restore everything, sometimes even double casting it to ensure I had

- a reserve revive
- ability to sheep on attack (has to be ranged)
- call up a meat shield

It was a little while ago, but I am fairly certain I started off with one phantom and one black hole. They had ogres and they would always drain me in that critical first round, and it was particularly frustrating. The blackhole starter usually ended up killing them in the beginning.

The general strategy was to form meat shields, delay as long as possible while sneaking in more attacks via Black Hole, pygmy, phantom tanks and disable as much via Runemages/Phantoms. While the rune mages was the key enabler unit, the trolls would end up being the real heroes, since they would converge on maximum 300% dmg bonus as everything started dying. I relied on the Ogre Set to give me the leadership boosts and that's why I was so dead set on using trolls and orc chieftains (since orc chieftains are basically ogres with a new skin, it seems they inherit the underlying characteristics).

I am pretty sure I was down to the last phantom/revive and such and nearly out of mana. It was very long. (~20 turns?) Very tough for me. I should have went in with more disable in mind I think.

Anyways, I think atlatea's method is much easier and cleaner. He beats it in like 5 rounds and heals it all with just one paladin prayer!

He used dryads to lullaby the goblin shaman, threw a disable at a shaman too (sheep or blind). Since he is a paladin class, it made sense he had paladins and inquistors in his army for the 40% bonus damage.

Then he would bear down on the key units. Standard divide and conquer methods.

He also had black dragons too. I think his post is detailed within this very thread and he probably can tell you more of the finer details.