Orcs on the March thread

[atlatea]

Well, i don't know about you, 70% astral resist and caution 3 (30% dmg reduction) cuts 24k astral dmg to about 5k, for me it's a very high reduction, making units that is beyond revivable for no loss game easily revivable.

Off course it's just turn 1, that's why, those reduction is not meant to make your battle easier past turn 1 till the end of the battle, it's just make the beyond revivable one become revivable (i mean it's just a precaution step if they use astral attack at turn 1, which they often do, and those reduction saves your day), then all things remains the same, i mean you must solve your problem quickly (especially after turn 2) just like any hard battle, the key remains the same, racing againts time (in this case the turn).

That's why you sheep/blind the blood shaman and mass sleep the goblin with dryads. I told you shackles are not worth it in previous page. Especialy as mage, you can disable 2 goblin/orc shamans stacks at once / turn (blind,sheep) , again 70% astral resist and caution 3 are not meant to turn your super hard battle become super easy battle, it mean to turn a loss game battle to no loss game battle.

edit:
Ah yep, i forgot about witch hunter, never tried them againts shamans though, and i guess witch hunter lock has leadership cap too (that means not all shamans stack are lockable), still, i'll try them next time, nice info btw.

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by atlatea

Well, i don't know about you, 70% astral resist and caution 3 (30% dmg reduction) cuts 24k astral dmg to about 5k, for me it's a very high reduction, making units that is beyond revivable for no loss game easily revivable.

Off course it's just turn 1, that's why, those reduction is not meant to make your battle easier past turn 1 till the end of the battle, it's just make the beyond revivable one become revivable (i mean it's just a precaution step if they use astral attack at turn 1, which they often do, and those reduction saves your day), then all things remains the same, i mean you must solve your problem quickly (especially after turn 2) just like any hard battle, the key remains the same, racing againts time (in this case the turn).

That's why you sheep/blind the blood shaman and mass sleep the goblin with dryads. I told you shackles are not worth it in previous page. Especialy as mage, you can disable 2 goblin/orc shamans stacks at once / turn (blind,sheep) , again 70% astral resist and caution 3 are not meant to turn your super hard battle become super easy battle, it mean to turn a loss game battle to no loss game battle.

edit:
Ah yep, i forgot about witch hunter, never tried them againts shamans though, and i guess witch hunter lock has leadership cap too (that means not all shamans stack are lockable), still, i'll try them next time, nice info btw.

I don't think anyone is debating the reduction in damage as being useful. It is just ridiculous that one has to go that far just to BARELY survive?

Yeah, depends on the stack make up. I think rakush's team has a > 55K leadership stack in there somewhere.

Ugh, blind and sheep are so expensive together. How much mana do you usually have? Isn't that like 60 mana? I guess that isn't too bad since it lasts for 2 rounds, but ugh.

Witch hunter has no leadership cap and would be nice here, but after a certain point you still need killer units.

[jake21]

Well... I'm on my second play (first was warrior impossible; current is mage impossible) and I think you are perhaps over-reacting. Yes this has beefed up orcs quite a bit and yea I've redone a few fights to adjust troops but all in all I'm not having a really hard time yet. I'm not playing no lost but since level 12 or so I've only lost 8 troops and that was because I was too lazy to redo the fight.

What I have found is that in certain fights changing troops with those in reserve is very important. Anyways it might be a bit more difficult for no loss games but it is hardly impossible.
(I might feel different between now and the end; as I know from my warrior game there are 3 or 4 really hard fights yet to be done).

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

I don't think anyone is debating the reduction in damage as being useful. It is just ridiculous that one has to go that far just to BARELY survive?

Yeah, depends on the stack make up. I think rakush's team has a > 55K leadership stack in there somewhere.

Ugh, blind and sheep are so expensive together. How much mana do you usually have? Isn't that like 60 mana? I guess that isn't too bad since it lasts for 2 rounds, but ugh.

Witch hunter has no leadership cap and would be nice here, but after a certain point you still need killer units.

[atlatea]

I don't think anyone is debating the reduction in damage as being useful. It is just ridiculous that one has to go that far just to BARELY survive?

Yeah, depends on the stack make up. I think rakush's team has a > 55K leadership stack in there somewhere.

Ugh, blind and sheep are so expensive together. How much mana do you usually have? Isn't that like 60 mana? I guess that isn't too bad since it lasts for 2 rounds, but ugh.

Witch hunter has no leadership cap and would be nice here, but after a certain point you still need killer units.

You forgot a spell called target, instant disable all goblin shaman and orc shaman stacks in battlefield, though againts orc shaman, you must enter orc shaman's move range.

Anyway, orc shaman astral dmg is not that high, goblin shaman does way more dmg, so just cast target then sheep/blind, or vice versa.

Choose beetwen Sheep or blind (depends on your situation).

Well, dryads, witch hunter, target, sheep/blind are good againts those shamans. You can have no loss battle againts scrounger using those things.

edit:
I'm trying witch hunter, it seems they're best for warrior and paladin, as they're still killer because of their number (idk about mage).

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by atlatea

You forgot a spell called target, instant disable all goblin shaman and orc shaman stacks in battlefield, though againts orc shaman, you must enter orc shaman's move range.

Anyway, orc shaman astral dmg is not that high, goblin shaman does way more dmg, so just cast target then sheep/blind, or vice versa.

Choose beetwen Sheep or blind (depends on your situation).

Well, dryads, witch hunter, target, sheep/blind are good againts those shamans. You can have no loss battle againts scrounger using those things.

edit:
I'm trying witch hunter, it seems they're best for warrior and paladin, as they're still killer because of their number (idk about mage).

Ah, everyone talks about target, but I rarely use it. So, if the enemy CAN hit the target with normal attacks, it will? That's why you pointed out the movement range for the shaman, right?

So you mean it will disable their special attacks because they will be forced to attack normally? Hmmm. yes that could be very handy.

Yeah, I already beat scrounger with no loss, but this will be much easier, thanks!

[BB Shockwave]

Yep, Target will make the enemy use a melee or ranged (whichever is their normal attack) against the Target-ed unit. Be mindful that Mind Immune units are not affected, AFAIK.

Also, Blood Shamans have the Power of the Horde, which is also a very nasty spell, though it does only attack one unit. I hope the english patch is released soon, because right now, even a few Goblin/Blood Shamans can cause much more damage then what'd be acceptable for units of their level. Regular Goblins are over-powered too, it is almost like their axes ignore physical resistance and defense, especially when they use their slam-back attack.

I still use Witch Hunters for some tough fights, but sadly, even with a Paladin, their leadership/damage ratio is not too high. They are best used to attack units who already retaliated, as their attack/defense and damage, even with their beneficial spells, is low. Their only saving grace is their low HP and magic resistance. I found them immensely usefull againts Gremlin Towers, as the Friendly and Evil Gremlins will often cast their debuff spells on them, and since it disappears immediately, the next tower will cast it again on them, and so on...

[atlatea]

Ah, everyone talks about target, but I rarely use it. So, if the enemy CAN hit the target with normal attacks, it will? That's why you pointed out the movement range for the shaman, right?

So you mean it will disable their special attacks because they will be forced to attack normally? Hmmm. yes that could be very handy.

Yeah, I already beat scrounger with no loss, but this will be much easier, thanks!

Yep, and goblin shaman use ranged attack, which always able to hit your targeted stack, making them 100% never use their astral attack.

As for orc shaman, its astral attack dmg seems far inferior to that of the goblin shaman, so i usually disable goblin shaman first.

Target is overpowered spell.

As for scrounger, just make her goblin shaman and orc shaman never use their astral attack (especially the goblin) and you have no loss battle, you probably also need to have very high defense (and attack too).

edit:

I hope the english patch is released soon, because right now, even a few Goblin/Blood Shamans can cause much more damage then what'd be acceptable for units of their level. Regular Goblins are over-powered too, it is almost like their axes ignore physical resistance and defense, especially when they use their slam-back attack.

So, the defense ignoring thing about goblin and orc is because of bug? I mean the dev never intended to work like that?

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by atlatea

So, the defense ignoring thing about goblin and orc is because of bug? I mean the dev never intended to work like that?

"""
I hope the english patch is released soon, because right now, even a few Goblin/Blood Shamans can cause much more damage then what'd be acceptable for units of their level. Regular Goblins are over-powered too, it is almost like their axes ignore physical resistance and defense, especially when they use their slam-back attack.
""

Highly doubt it. It is just they wanted to make it strong for when you use them, but they never considered the balance issues when it is used against you, especially at higher levels of play like Impossible where the enemy routinely has waay too much leadership.

I mean, not much point in calling it Orcs on the March if the orcs blatantly sucked.

I think you are probably underestimating the Goblin's TRUE power. They were always potentially strong, because they have very unique abilities.

a) Zeroing In
b) Giant Killer (not sure if this was in the original or not)

Zeroing In means that every round the goblin attacks, his attack goes up by 5. Yes, I said every round. That means as time approaches infinity, the goblin will EASILY achieve +60 attack over your defense, so he will always do 3X more damage than his base, even with a normal attack.

This is not even considering the new orc modifications. Those mods just gave him a chance to do poison damage and a +1 to damage, which is a fairly powerful buff, but nothing compared to its native skill.

Giant Killer means if you dare to use a level 5 to hit it, get ready to take an additional 30% damage from the goblins.

Again, abilities that were around before the modifications.

It is also why my Super Goblin stack is the most damaging stack I have ever created. Thanks to "Unstoppable" ability (again, an ability that existed before the Orcs on the March patch), I have a chance to attack multiple times in a single round. (At least twice so far, not sure if it is capped).

Once my goblins hit +60 Attack over Defense, with 100% crit, I do about 12K per hit easily. And this is not even at maximum leadership yet. Merely like level 37. I've probably already thrown up to 18K per hit too. I think I already projected dealing close to 20-30K by end game. Throw in Orc's "Second command" ability and a Paladin's Second Wind, I throw another 12K+ damage again. Each time I throw, I have a chance to throw yet again and again.

I'm glad they are buffing Goblins more in the next patch. Mwhaha.

[BB Shockwave]

I'm sorry, but that's not what the problem is.

I was facing about 100-120 Goblins in two stacks, and have cast Oily Cloud on them, reducing their ranged damage by 50%. Now, attacking with their ranged attack, they did about 120 damage to my Archmages (on the other half of the screen), who had a pretty high defense. Then, next round... they used these slam-attacks, which killed about 2-3 Archmages for every hit! I checked the descriptions, that attack should not do much more damage then their regular ranged attack, so my guess is, it simply ignores the Oil Cloud de-buff. Oh yeah, and this was round 2, so Zeroing In should not be brought up here. Giant Killer is new for Crossworlds, btw.

For Goblin Shamans, again, the Astral Damage is one thing - sure, no-one has resistance against it. However, it also works as a spell works, cast by your hero - meaning, there is no "attack roll" and the enemy's defense is not taken into consideration. And that is unfair, and should not work this way, because every other spell cast by your creatures so far in AP and TL took defense into consideration - I'm thinking of the Dancing Axes of the Shaman, or the Reign of Fire of the Black Dragons, or the Life Leech of the Demonologist. The Goblin Shaman's attack works like an astral-damage spell cast by your hero, which would indeed not take Defense into consideration. To add insult to injury, the Goblins can even act AFTER they have cast this horribly overpowered spell!

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

I'm sorry, but that's not what the problem is.

I was facing about 100-120 Goblins in two stacks, and have cast Oily Cloud on them, reducing their ranged damage by 50%. Now, attacking with their ranged attack, they did about 120 damage to my Archmages (on the other half of the screen), who had a pretty high defense. Then, next round... they used these slam-attacks, which killed about 2-3 Archmages for every hit! I checked the descriptions, that attack should not do much more damage then their regular ranged attack, so my guess is, it simply ignores the Oil Cloud de-buff. Oh yeah, and this was round 2, so Zeroing In should not be brought up here. Giant Killer is new for Crossworlds, btw.

For Goblin Shamans, again, the Astral Damage is one thing - sure, no-one has resistance against it. However, it also works as a spell works, cast by your hero - meaning, there is no "attack roll" and the enemy's defense is not taken into consideration. And that is unfair, and should not work this way, because every other spell cast by your creatures so far in AP and TL took defense into consideration - I'm thinking of the Dancing Axes of the Shaman, or the Reign of Fire of the Black Dragons, or the Life Leech of the Demonologist. The Goblin Shaman's attack works like an astral-damage spell cast by your hero, which would indeed not take Defense into consideration. To add insult to injury, the Goblins can even act AFTER they have cast this horribly overpowered spell!

Hmm I thought Giant Killer was available for the Furious Goblins at a minimum, but it doesn't seem to be in the manual, so I guess it is new.

Ok, so it is a normal ability, not a "ranged attack", so it bypassed your oil cloud. Sounds fair, considering it drains adrenaline from the goblins. Just call it... "Magic Missile."

Huh? I am fairly certain Dancing Axes is NOT affected by defense (the Defense Score), neither is Reign of Fire, or Life Leech. They are only affected by the unit's resistances, no more, no less. Most higher level monsters do have native resistances, so they might seem to take less damage, but pretty sure you can have a Defense of 999, and it will not change the damage one iota.

So, there is nothing outrageous about the ability bypassing the Defense stat. It just does way too much damage.

You could argue that the computer should NOT be allowed to start with Adrenaline Level 2 with orc armies. I'm not completely sure if this is a passive ability of the Blood shaman or not. If it is, then it is merely a bad game mechanic, where they never considered how deadly this would be on the other end of the stick.