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IL-2 Sturmovik The famous combat flight simulator. |
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#1
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What the RAF did do however, was prevent the Germans from winning!! Preventing the Germans from winning was good enough to thwart Hitler's plan to invade Great Britain - so I suppose one could say that it was a "victory of sorts" for the RAF! Hitler realised that he needed to URGENTLY switch his attention to Russia, before it re-armed etc to the extent that it would be too powerful to take on - which in fact is what it turned out to be ... no doubt aided by the necessity for the Germans to retain a lot of manpower, aircraft etc in the West. I'm not so sure that the Luftwaffe was defeated when they "packed their bags" and moved east! I live in South Africa and I really hope to see some of these BBC BoB programmes - hopefully they'll be screened on BBC Knowledge or come out on DVD. |
#2
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The Germans had better planes, better tactics and more planes, after months of wasting resources they just decided to put things "on hold". |
#3
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Clearly, the Nazis would have had to pay a dear price for air supremacy but it would have been worth it from a strategic point of view, invasion or not. I do not agree that the Nazi planes were clearly better or that German pilots were clearly better. The front line fighters on both sides were doing their jobs rather well, the Germans were just at a huge disadvantage in that they were near the limit of their range. Plus, the Brits were fighting at home...when they lost a plane they stood a decent chance of getting the pilot back. When the Germans lost a plane, they usually lost a pilot too. But the Germans did have the numbers advantage. Another disadvantage the Nazis put themselves into was the inferiority of their bombers. Stukas were severely outclassed by the BoB and British planes made mincemeat out of them and other bombers. They never really developed a strategic bomber. If the Nazis had developed better bombers prior to the BoB, again the Brits would have had a much more difficult time of things. I think arrogance played a huge role in the Nazi "defeat" in the BoB. I think it again came into play with the decision to invade Russia (never a good idea for dictators lol). BTW, in that post it may seem that I used the terms "Nazi" and "German" almost interchangeably. I try to keep a clear distinction in my head between the Nazi leadership and the German soldiers and civilians. I understand they were not the same and hope everyone else does too. I try to use the proper term when needed, but sometimes the differences are probably not clear. Hope that makes sense. Splitter |
#4
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The real disadvantage was the poor range of the fighters, but that was being dealt with thanks to the installation of external fuel tanks. Quote:
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Arrogance had nothing to do with the invasion of Russia, but this is another story.. Quote:
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#5
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Sternjaeger, excellent post.
I understand what you are saying, but I think that by the time the 109's got over England, they were matched pretty well by the Spits. The 109 was more versatile and with all other things being equal, I would have rather been in a 109. But if my choice was whether to fight in a Spit or a 109 in the BoB, I would rather have been in the Spit. I figure that I could fight on fairly equal terms with the 109 and if I got shot down, I stood a decent chance of living through it and going back up again in a different aircraft. If a pilot got shot down in a 109 (or had a mechanical failure for that matter) during the BoB, chances were that the war was over for him. If he stayed too long and burned too much fuel, he may or may not make it back to friendly territory. Plus, his job was usually to protect bombers which takes away from his offensive capabilities. I would disagree that German bombers were adequate still in the BoB because they lost so many of them. Part of that was tactics for sure, but the Stuka in particular was too slow all of a sudden. It had done well in previous campaigns but had not faced the combination of decent enemy fighters backed by RADAR. I think the one common plane I would not have liked to fly in most in the BoB would have been the Stuka...the loss rate was just too high. Too bad that both sides greatly inflated their numbers of "victories" after the battle as the numbers cannot really be trusted. Imagine for a moment that the Nazi leadership had developed a good, fast, bomber prior to the BoB and had actually produced it in quantity. They had that ability, but they stayed with the planes that had worked in the past against more inferior forces. That's the arrogance I spoke of. With fewer bomber losses and a more focused bombing campaign, I don't think the RAF could have held out much longer. History might have been much different. As for the invasion of Russia...just a bad idea lol. Hitler and the gang thought they would roll over the Russians as they had done to opponents in Europe. They under estimated the Russians and therefore the time and resources it would take to defeat them. They didn't even prepare their troops with winter gear and their vehicles were not prepared for operations during a Russian winter. But, they didn't expect the campaign to take so long. There is a measure of arrogance there I think. Hitler thought he could do what Napoleon could not. He thought the same equipment and tactics would work against Russia like they worked against the French and others previously conquered. He did not prepare for what became a brutal winter even by Russian standards. Basically, Hitler wasted a lot of resources and troops. There was a reason the Allies decided it was better to keep him in power rather than assassinating him...his decisions most often helped the Allied cause lol. Even his generals who were good military men were often left scratching their heads. This is the cool things about history. It's not about the dates and the names, it's about what the players may have been thinking and the effects their decisions had on outcomes. The lessons, if there are any to be had, are in the "why". Historians have been debating those things since...well, sine the beginning of history ![]() Good chat. Splitter |
#6
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If you look up the exploits of Eprobungsgruppe 210 during the Battle, they used Bf110's experimentally for shallow dive bombing at high speed, which proved as accurate as the Stukas, but with far superior speed and defence. If this had been adopted as a widespread tactic, it would have been highly effective. As it was, both the Stukas as bombers and the Bf110's as fighters were almost totally withdrawn from the Battle due to high losses.. Also, the Ju88 was renowned for being very tough to kill, and once the bombs had gone could be very difficult to catch. As to whether the Battle was won, Sternjaeger and Mungee, Germany gave up before the Luftwaffe was wasted away altogether, (due to manufacturing and training shortcomings) the invasion plans were postponed (if it was ever really intended in the first place), and Britain was not forced to negotiate. What more of a definition of winning do people need? ![]() They also had nine months between the BoB and Barbarossa to re-supply and train up. It's not like Barbarossa was immediately afterwards! Last edited by ATAG_Dutch; 09-24-2010 at 06:57 PM. |
#7
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Luftwaffe losses in the BoB (source "Kronika Bitvy o Britanii", M. Weidenhofer, Navrat 1991) Type Losses Junkers Ju 87 74 Junkers Ju 88 281 Dornier Do 17 171 Dornier Do 215 6 Heinkel He 56 31 Heinkel He 111 246 Heinkel He 115 28 Henschel Hs 126 7 Messerschmitt Bf 109 533 Messerschmitt Bf 110 229 Total 1562 Quote:
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Germans weren't complete fools, they well knew that they stood a chance if they made it to Moscow. Everything was going according to plans, but then Hitler had one of his typical anal fits and decided to waste three weeks in the Dnepr area to get access to the coal mines, and that's the main reason why the Germans screwed up Barbarossa. If they stuck to the according plans and pushed straight to Moscow from the start he would have decapitated the Russian bear and things could have been quite different.. Quote:
I agree, this is a good chat indeed ![]() |
#8
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![]() On Stukas, they were withdrawn from combat operations after losing about 1/5 of their force in about 10 days (doing it from memory, forgive me if I am off). Planes like that need either skies that are cleared of enemy fighters or really slow enemy fighters. The Americans suffered similar losses with their dive bombers in the Pacific. Hitler was the biggest problem the Nazis had militarily. Really...they guy could screw up a wet dream. He thought his time as a corporal running messages (rather brave I must say though) somehow qualified him to run military campaigns. After him, you have to look at his cronies as the incompetents in charge. The generals were often very good military men. The soldiers were as good as any on any side. Their equipment was decent. The problem was always leadership (I'm separating military operations from political motivations obviously). Making it to Moscow was a huge gamble and they greatly underestimated the Russian people. The Russians willingly sacrificed millions of civilian lives to stem the German tide...not something the Nazi leadership counted on. They certainly did not count on the T-34 either in quality or quantity. As I said in another thread, rule number one for aspiring dictators is DO NOT invade Russia lol. To expect the whole campaign to go like clockwork on schedule and to not prepare for contingencies (like General Winter) was pure foolishness which I think stemmed from Hitler's arrogance. Germans were not fools, but Hitler and his cronies were. BTW, I have never been clear on whether or not Hitler approved the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor prior to it happening. I know he turned around and declared war on the US, but I find it hard to believe that he thought bringing the US industrial might into the war was a good idea....though he was probably tired of lend-lease by then. Splitter |
#9
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To get a proper picture we'd need to look at relative percentage of type loss rates for German bomber types over the common period that they were employed. The fact is though that they were withdrawn by Goering because of unacceptable attrition/loss rates. (Also, I think you are perhaps a little too quick to define positions that you personally have trouble accepting as 'propaganda'.) ![]() Quote:
edit: in the interests of fairness - and having re-read the post that this quote was actually referring to - I would agree that the 110 could perhaps have been used more successfully in the fighter-bomber role rather than persisting as a straight fighter Quote:
![]() Last edited by kendo65; 09-25-2010 at 09:08 AM. |
#10
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This they demonstrably failed to do. I think it is fair to say then that they lost the battle - i.e. failed to achieve their strategic objective, and that the British won - i.e. achieved their strategic objective of preventing the Germans from gaining air superiority! Quote:
At the level of small-scale tactics (section, flight, squadron) the Germans definitely had the advantage early on, but I think it's fair to say they were comprehensively beaten at the operational and strategic levels. And to say that 'they just decided to put things "on hold" ' brings to mind that old joke about the General telling his troops that they were "not retreating - just advancing in a different direction." Last edited by kendo65; 09-24-2010 at 09:32 PM. |
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