FW-190A vs Spitfire, Me-109G, P-47D in dogfights

[Gaston]

Quote Erki: "EDIT: by the way, 250kmph IAS is well below 109's speed for best rate of turn."

Yes, the best UNsustained turn rate (Corner Speed) for the Me-109G, especially if trimmed tail-heavy, is probably in line with what was found by the only modern-instrument test ever made of WWII fighters, for the P-51D, F4U, F6F and P-47D, as found by "The Society of Experimental test pilots" in 1989: "VERY close to the maximum level speed"...

Which confirms that Karhila is NOT talking about that: He is talking about the best SUSTAINED turn rate, and since 160 MPH is well below some of the highest sustained turn speeds the Me-109G can pull (it can probably sustain quite tight turns up to 280 mph at least, if not more) it demonstrates, as he intends to say in the clearest way possible, that the fastest speed the engine will allow in sustained turns is not the best way to go...

In other words, this demonstrates that being as close as possible to the 320?-400 MPH "Corner Speed", while sustaining level turns, is NOT helpful to the cause of sustaining the highest possible sustained turn rate, or at least the best sustained turn rate/radius combination.

Therefore full power is NOT helpful, and he contrasts very clearly his method to that of fellow pilots: "I found that when fighter pilots got in a battle, they usually applied full power and then began to turn. In the same situation I used to decrease power, and with lower speed was able to turn equally well."

In WWII combat "turning" typically lasted at least 2-3 full 360° circles, AT A MINIMUM, and 45(!) full 360°s not being unheard of (15 minutes + of continuous turning to one side), but that sounds unfamiliar to simmers who are obsessed with unsustained turns that were meaningless in real-life WWII combat with real, non-magical guns...

This is why he felt the need to emphasize the need for downthrottling in SUSTAINED turns, quite apart from the issue of brief overrun avoidance that was mostly a preoccupation of some of the faster US fighters while in dives...

In any case, the REAL best UNsustained turn rate (Corner Speed), is so high in most WWII fighter types, that downthrottling to it would practically be limited to being in a dive...

So again, downthrottling is obviously not meant here for a quicker turn while in a dive or in a high-speed overrun, despite the best efforts here of those who would muddy up everything with imaginative fiction...

Poor Karhila tried to be clear about what he was saying, and his general purpose is perfectly obvious, but then he is up against quite valiant efforts to confuse everything he says into a pile of mush...

I greatly admire this argument that says the quotes I made are taken out of context, but then doesn't ellaborate on what the intended context is...

I'll give it a try...;

Get this: The intended context here is that when Karhila is at 400 MPH while in combat (typical in-combat speed when you light up the twin JE after-burners you know...), then this COMMON situation requires that he downthrottles to his "Corner Speed" of 350 MPH where he will THEN throttle back up to maintain speed as close as possible to this best unsustained turn speed...

Oh, he forgot to mention anything about throttling back up? Well it's understandable: Old age you know...

But throttling back up IS part of the "context" you know, when you reach the "right" speed: It's just that this "context" is invisible in this particular case...

Trust them... Not!

Gaston