Rebalancing of tanks needed!

[Nikitns]

I want eras. Seriously.

And yeah, in 1941 a Panzer 4 should be VERY expensive, while in 1944 Panzer 4's should be cheap and Panther being decently priced.

In 1944 T-34/85's should be cheap, while T34/76's shouldn't be able 2 be built.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE BEST WAY/DIGITALMINDSOFT!!

Make this change.

[Nikitns]

also nerf the ******* calliope. I hate it so bad!! Except when Im using it but that is rarely.....


also Su-100 should have a better armour penetration stats, and so should the Zis-2. Zis-2 is a toy gun compared 2 what it was IRL. This thing shat on Panzer 4's, and that is why the Soviet high command stopped production of them in 1941 - they were 2 expensive and useless at firing HE, because a Zis-3 could fire both HE and being able 2 take out Panzer 4's. It was not until Panthers started showing up that the Soviets resumed production of Zis-2!

[Nikitns]

also the D-10S gun of the ISU-100 had stronger penentration (185mm at 1000m) than the German Kwk 88 43 gun of the tiger 2 (160mm at 1000m)!!!!

This is ridiculous and LAME....

[KnightFandragon]

Originally Posted by Nikitns

I want eras. Seriously.

And yeah, in 1941 a Panzer 4 should be VERY expensive, while in 1944 Panzer 4's should be cheap and Panther being decently priced.

In 1944 T-34/85's should be cheap, while T34/76's shouldn't be able 2 be built.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE BEST WAY/DIGITALMINDSOFT!!

Make this change.

T34/85s atleast in squad leader, and that is a pretty much realisitic board game has the T34/85 not even available till mid 44', the KIng Tiger isnt available till like August 44. The T34 should be available, the KV1 shouldnt be but yeah. Im sure if we all come up w/ ideas maybe they will incorporate them eh? would be wicked awesome to see a Era patch haha. The Pzr III would be a friggin beast in 41', 42 ish. The T34/Sherman would stand better against it though.

[Crni vuk]

Originally Posted by Nikitns

In 1944 T-34/85's should be cheap, while T34/76's shouldn't be able 2 be built.

Though in 1944 the T34/76 was still one of the most common if not THE common vehicle in the soviet army. The T34/85 was produced in large numbers trough the war but it did actualy not simply replaced the T34/76 but more served next to it one might get the idea the soviet army jumped on the new design as soon it was going in to production but even during almost the whole year of 1944 the soviets had to rely very much on the t34 with its short 76mm gun which makes the Su 85 a important adition to the soviet army wich saw service already in 1943 already. The 85mm gun was quite late used with the T34 and the first units which got equiped with them have been elite units usualy like the tank guards or what their name was no clue. So as said it should not just simply replace it even when it was available in large numbers.

Originally Posted by Nikitns

also the D-10S gun of the ISU-100 had stronger penentration (185mm at 1000m) than the German Kwk 88 43 gun of the tiger 2 (160mm at 1000m)!!!!

This is ridiculous and LAME....

Would be nice to know about this statistic.

The 100mm which was a version from a naval gun had for a soviet gun quite good capabilities particularly against panthers and the tiger 1 even on large distances.

But I doubt it was powerfull enough to penetrate the front from a Tiger II. As both the turret and hul have been quite thick. Around 150mm angled for the hull and 180mm for the turret. I have no clue how acurate the page is but Battlefield.ru gives for the Su100 125mm penetration on 500m shooting a 60° angled plate, 155mm on 90° using the BR-412 APBC (Armor pearcing balistic cap).

Remember the Germans used with ther famous 88mm Kwk (Kampfwagen kanone) many times not just simple armor pearcing (AP) but as well APCBC (armor pearcing capped balistic cap), or even rare APCR (Armor pearcing composit rigid). So the Tiger II should if using the APCRC outclass the Su100 with its APBC definetly. Even the standart APCBC-HE Panzergranate 39/43 for the PAK43 seems to penetrate more then 180mm of armor already on 500m and even more then 200mm with the rare APCR Panzergranate 40/43

The only gun that might have outclassed it (but thats not certain!) is the gun of the Superpershing which was a modified long version of the 90mm gun and late war designs like the british 105mm using APDS and APFSDS (modern shells)

3AD's "Super Pershing" vs. Germany's "King Tiger"

But one should always remember that this is the internet afterall. So any informations should not be considered as simple fact.

[Evilsausage]

One source says:
That the Su-100s gun was almost equal to the Tiger IIs 8.8 cm KwK 43 gun.
180mm penetration at 1000 meters which means it would had been able to take out a king tiger frontally.

However another source says that it could only achive 150 mm penetration at 1000 meters. And only 162 mm Penetartion at 500 meters.

So its hard to know what source is true.
But either way the Su-100 could need a cost reduction, since germany get JP 4s with slightly better armor for only 50 points.

And if they buff the gun to almost the same values of a high velocity 88. It might get a higher cost then it has now. Since then it would be almost as deadly as a Jagdpanther.

[KnightFandragon]

Lol, the Super Pershing, I only saw that thing in a mod I downloaded and couldnt help but laugh at it...as if the M26 Pershing isnt already bad ass enough. Then on top of that there was a Sherman Ane or something, it was friggin god....its gun outperformed a modern day Sabot round for penetration and the tank itself was armored well and coulda raced in the Indy 500 and won 1st place.../random post

[Nikitns]

Originally Posted by Crni vuk

Though in 1944 the T34/76 was still one of the most common if not THE common vehicle in the soviet army. The T34/85 was produced in large numbers trough the war but it did actualy not simply replaced the T34/76 but more served next to it one might get the idea the soviet army jumped on the new design as soon it was going in to production but even during almost the whole year of 1944 the soviets had to rely very much on the t34 with its short 76mm gun which makes the Su 85 a important adition to the soviet army wich saw service already in 1943 already. The 85mm gun was quite late used with the T34 and the first units which got equiped with them have been elite units usualy like the tank guards or what their name was no clue. So as said it should not just simply replace it even when it was available in large numbers.

OK, sure, there may have been a few late T-34/76 models on the front in 1945, but the majority of the tanks were already T-34/85. 50k T-34/85 were produced out of 80k T-34's.

Fine though you have a point so there should be a late T-34 model available as a counter 2 the Panzer 3, and then the T-34/85 which should be as cheap as a German Panzer 4.

Would be nice to know about this statistic.

The 100mm which was a version from a naval gun had for a soviet gun quite good capabilities particularly against panthers and the tiger 1 even on large distances.

But I doubt it was powerfull enough to penetrate the front from a Tiger II. As both the turret and hul have been quite thick. Around 150mm angled for the hull and 180mm for the turret. I have no clue how acurate the page is but Battlefield.ru gives for the Su100 125mm penetration on 500m shooting a 60° angled plate, 155mm on 90° using the BR-412 APBC (Armor pearcing balistic cap).

Remember the Germans used with ther famous 88mm Kwk (Kampfwagen kanone) many times not just simple armor pearcing (AP) but as well APCBC (armor pearcing capped balistic cap), or even rare APCR (Armor pearcing composit rigid). So the Tiger II should if using the APCRC outclass the Su100 with its APBC definetly. Even the standart APCBC-HE Panzergranate 39/43 for the PAK43 seems to penetrate more then 180mm of armor already on 500m and even more then 200mm with the rare APCR Panzergranate 40/43

The only gun that might have outclassed it (but thats not certain!) is the gun of the Superpershing which was a modified long version of the 90mm gun and late war designs like the british 105mm using APDS and APFSDS (modern shells)

3AD's "Super Pershing" vs. Germany's "King Tiger"

But one should always remember that this is the internet afterall. So any informations should not be considered as simple fact.

With APHE round it achieved a penetration of 180mm steel at 1000m. I don't know if the armour was angled nor the quality of the armour.

German 8.8 cm KwK 43 achieved penetration of 160mm steel @60 at 1000m using the APCBC round..

It is safe 2 say that these weapons were comparable. Also King Tiger frontal armour was 100mm IRL, not ******* 180mm (that was the turret only).

Su-100 should have far higher penetration stats than it has now.

[Evilsausage]

Originally Posted by Nikitns

With APHE round it achieved a penetration of 180mm steel at 1000m. I don't know if the armour was angled nor the quality of the armour.

German 8.8 cm KwK 43 achieved penetration of 160mm steel @60 at 1000m using the APCBC round..

It is safe 2 say that these weapons were comparable. Also King Tiger frontal armour was 100mm IRL, not ******* 180mm (that was the turret only).

Su-100 should have far higher penetration stats than it has now.

Yes but in MoW the King tigers AP round counts as a APCR round. Since the max penetration of the KT is 233 at 10m.
So the King tiger would still have higher penetration then the SU-100.

Also that fact that the SU-100 got 180mm penetration at 1000m, its not guarenteed its true. It might but not guarenteed.
Yes Wiki says so but, that doesnt prove anything.
I have come across other penetration values for the SU-100 that are lower. Maybe thats why the SU-100s gun is what it is in MoW.

But you have gotten it all wrong about the King tigers armor. Yes it only got 180mm on its turret. But the frontal armor is still 150mm, not to mention its sloped.
If the King Tiger only had 100mm frontal armor and had the weight of almost 70 tones it would had been kinda useless.

[Crni vuk]

Originally Posted by Nikitns

OK, sure, there may have been a few late T-34/76 models on the front in 1945, but the majority of the tanks were already T-34/85. 50k T-34/85 were produced out of 80k T-34's.

Do you count the T34 numbers as whole or only numbers from WW2.

Many times I can read the production numbers of all T34 together (including the 76mm AND 85mm version) not to be more then aprox 50 000 units in WW2 with eventualy 18 or 19 000 produced T34-85 all not acurate numbers of course. Dont forget they still produced many units right after the war and the 85mm saw service in many soviet controled nations and it also saw some action in the Korean war and some even have been seen in the yugoslavian wars during the 90s!

I have no doubts that there have been many 85mm versions around. 80k units seems a bit much even for the Soviets if you consider that they eventualy produced around 1200 units per month eventualy and the War in Europe was over by April 1945

Originally Posted by Nikitns

With APHE round it achieved a penetration of 180mm steel at 1000m. I don't know if the armour was angled nor the quality of the armour.

German 8.8 cm KwK 43 achieved penetration of 160mm steel @60 at 1000m using the APCBC round..

It is safe 2 say that these weapons were comparable. Also King Tiger frontal armour was 100mm IRL, not ******* 180mm (that was the turret only).

Su-100 should have far higher penetration stats than it has now.

Doubtfull. Very doubtfull. Soviet guns have not been known for their quality in penetration. Hence why they usualy used simply biger guns compared to German vehicles like 100, 122 and 152mm even. It was cheaper to simply increase the size of the caliber then making high quality AP shells which was feared to slow down production numbers of shells and guns. I know it was not the only reasons. The IS2 was seen for example as brake trough tank with anti tank guns, pill boxes and bunkers as main targets since those have been in 1944 much more common then German tanks.

So the AP, APCBC (which was the German standart AP shell) can not be really compared simply with the AP shells of soviet vehicles which many times did not contained so many rare materials like German shells. What the soviets needed was something that could be produced everywhere and easily.

I thrust Battlefield.ru more then wikipedia though. Not that I say any of them are reliable sources compared to books. But I have yet to found any good informations out there about soviet guns. It seems there are a lot more available about German US/British guns (including the 17pf for example).

Though 180mm penetration seems a bit high for the Su100. Eventualy against plates with 90° angle ?

The real issue I have is that the Su100 has already trouble sometimes to penetrate the Tiger 1 and Panther front armor which really should NOT be anything of a problem.

But it seems that penetration and damage is sometimes pretty strange anyway. Seen to many times Pumas taking direct hits from 76 and 85mm guns even doing NOTHING at all. And that on close distance ... other times you see your tank geting killed from half the map in its side. Other times nothing at all. I have no clue if its from lags, or what ever or if they even simulated somehow shells which failed in penetration. If yes then its a bit overdone though.