Friday 2010-02-25 Development update:Interview by Grégory Lemasson/Discussion Thread

[MikkOwl]

Originally Posted by zapatista

your saying there that there is only 2 states possible for a ww2 pilot in relation to oxygen supply
a) perfectly normal and healthy
b) "far to late" (presumably instant near death state, or death itself)

I think he means that the signs are difficult to notice at all, in particular (and this is important) because the judgement is impaired, like with drunk people. Therefore there are signs, but when very quickly stepping into these conditions, the signs are probably easier for others to notice than for yourself. People with 'altitude poisoning' can do crazy things and don't realize what is really happening. But yes, I agree with you that there's not only two states, there's other things that we could and should notice. But these should not be so obviously apparent when just cruising that we always see directly what is happening.

Originally Posted by zapatista

so how do you "model" the pilot smelling the fuel in the cockpit ?

Try to think beyond just 'smell'. How do humans react to strong fumes? Especially in your example of it splashing around.

If I was a designer for Maddox Games, I would:

1. Make the eyes mist (vision become foggy).
2. Coughing (sound effect & movement of the viewscreen matching the cough attacks).

And more things maybe, depending on what was appropriate. I think you will agree that these two points would be clearly noticable, even in a dogfight, just like it would be clearly noticable to the real pilot. It is true that we still don't smell it, and that is a disadvantage. But the other multiple signs are clear for anyone to understand that nasty fumes are in the air.

EDIT: (Sorry for editing, I just realized I had more I could reply to)

so to SIMULATE the experience of the pilot it would be helpfull to get some additional clues, and this can take many forms and is really what the discussion should be about
1) simple "oxygen status" msg flash on screen ?
2) having the oxygen dial "light up brighter" so that with an initial glance at your instruments you get increased awareness of the important one
3) etc ... etc... many ways to do it

Good ideas. The on-screen message is appropriate if other proper signs are not there, or the user does not have good enough hardware to see the signs/instruments properly. Or if they just feel like having it obvious because of whatever reason.

The oxygen dial lighting up brighter is a great idea if the user does not quite have the hardware (you know, like need to zoom a lot to be able to read the instruments, while others with bigger better monitors and graphics cards can see it without much zoom), but still doesn't want the helmet mounted display message telling him that there is an O2 problem. Because then he can just look casually at the meter, if TRYING to check it, and see easier that it is not normal. Really great idea actually. I support it 100% as an option.

[AndyJWest]

There is another solution here, that also solves the DRM issue discussed in another thread. SoW:BoB shold be sold with a stink-dongle that releases the appropriate aroma during flight - a scent of hops and new-mown hay as your Hurri lifts out of Biggin Hill, acompanied by the aroma of 100-octane fuel leaking slightly into the cockpit. Suddenly, a scent of saurcraut and jackboot-polish alerts you to danger. You notice the metallic tang of 20mm cannon shells as they whizz by, but also notice the undertone of inexperienced youth and a distinct odour of wishing to be back home in Dusseldorf. Before you know it the threat has gone, leaving nothing but the scent of a half-empty fuel tank and the vaguest hint of Hermann Goering's aftershave.

Flying back to base you notice the pleasant aroma of new-mown-hay (again), and a vague hint of singed Dornier from somewhere along the coast. Turning into finals, your senses are assaulted by the overwhelming smell of bacon. Yum, lunchtime!...

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by MikkOwl

........... re fuel leak in cockpit ...............
Try to think beyond just 'smell'. How do humans react to strong fumes? Especially in your example of it splashing around.

If I was a designer for Maddox Games, I would:

1. Make the eyes mist (vision become foggy).
2. Coughing (sound effect & movement of the viewscreen matching the cough attacks).

And more things maybe, depending on what was appropriate. I think you will agree that these two points would be clearly noticable, even in a dogfight, just like it would be clearly noticable to the real pilot. It is true that we still don't smell it, and that is a disadvantage. But the other multiple signs are clear for anyone to understand that nasty fumes are in the air.

you are slightly missing my point, it is this:

for ex, when the hurrican pilot is in his cockpit flying around believing he is alone in the air, and suddenly
- some bang noises and a physical jolt (depending if large shell or small caliber hit, there might be little jolt or noise other then like rocks falling on a tin roof)
- his aircraft continues flying (so no major damage, and pilot initially unsure of what the jolt or sound was, or what it did to his aircraft)
- he feels liguid sprayed on his face and clothing
- strong smell of fuel
- no fire

there, in 5 sec the pilot know exactly what happened, how serious and threatening it is to him, and because of training knows his basic options and risks, and procedures to either evade (escape from cockpit), or reduce physical risk (put goggles on if not allready, close jacket, hand on canopy opening etc...). so how do you convey the same information to the virtual pilot sitting in his living room behind a monitor in the same 5 sec ? blurring some vision and making the pilot cough just doesnt convey the same information, especially since the same type of reaction could be from smoke or even glycol leaking into the cockpit and affecting the pilot (oks, not exactly the same, but you catch my meaning)

for a leak in oxygen, or sudden or gradual oxygen loss in supply to the pilot, the time delay in real life could vary from 30 sec to many minutes (particularly in a gradually climbing aircraft which might take several minutes)

so the problem is, for events like low oxygen, fuel leak into cockpit etc.. we need a way to convey the same information a real pilot has in the same time delay , other then using some "non real" messages onscreen or "virtual visual clue's" in the game to SIMULATE this pilot information i dont think it is possible to have our virtual pilots behave in the same way a real pilot experiencing a real life event would.

for those that dont like the idea or dont understand the concept, give them an on/off option in the preferences and they can fly around in a sensory deprived virtual space to their hearts content.

[Skoshi Tiger]

[QUOTE=AndyJWest;146586]You notice the metallic tang of 20mm cannon shells as they whizz by,
QUOTE]

Closely followed by the smell of soiled underwear !)

Cheers!

[Oleg Maddox]

Answer to Avimimus:



I will answer a bit later. However you are right - many things for third party are more on the design paper or in my and main programmer mind. But some things already programmed.

[MikkOwl]

you are slightly missing my point, it is this:

for ex, when the hurrican pilot is in his cockpit flying around believing he is alone in the air, and suddenly
- some bang noises and a physical jolt (depending if large shell or small caliber hit, there might be little jolt or noise other then like rocks falling on a tin roof)
- his aircraft continues flying (so no major damage, and pilot initially unsure of what the jolt or sound was, or what it did to his aircraft)
- he feels liguid sprayed on his face and clothing
- strong smell of fuel
- no fire

there, in 5 sec the pilot know exactly what happened, how serious and threatening it is to him, and because of training knows his basic options and risks, and procedures to either evade (escape from cockpit), or reduce physical risk (put goggles on if not allready, close jacket, hand on canopy opening etc...). so how do you convey the same information to the virtual pilot sitting in his living room behind a monitor in the same 5 sec ? blurring some vision and making the pilot cough just doesnt convey the same information, especially since the same type of reaction could be from smoke or even glycol leaking into the cockpit and affecting the pilot (oks, not exactly the same, but you catch my meaning)

I don't know the differences in how glycol and petrol affects the senses, so something should be done to distinguish them if there should be a noticable difference.

A principle can be followed in most cases however: if one sense cannot be simulated but others are enough to convey the same information adequately, then nothing more is necessary. But if it is not enough to convey the information, then exaggerating some of the other simulated senses can compensate for the loss of one sense.

Using text to spell it out should be seen as a failiure, only to be used as a last resort. For if it was not, then why do we even try to simulate anything, could just write everything with text instead.

If text is used, I would like it to at least limit itself to only replacing the lost sense. In IL-2, we have an instant "FUEL LEAK" 10 millisecond after a leak begins. If we talk about fuel leak into cockpit it would be better to just have, after several seconds "You smell gasoline" appear in an elegant way.

for a leak in oxygen, or sudden or gradual oxygen loss in supply to the pilot, the time delay in real life could vary from 30 sec to many minutes (particularly in a gradually climbing aircraft which might take several minutes) so the problem is, for events like low oxygen, fuel leak into cockpit etc.. we need a way to convey the same information a real pilot has in the same time delay , other then using some "non real" messages onscreen or "virtual visual clue's" in the game to SIMULATE this pilot information i dont think it is possible to have our virtual pilots behave in the same way a real pilot experiencing a real life event would.

for those that dont like the idea or dont understand the concept, give them an on/off option in the preferences and they can fly around in a sensory deprived virtual space to their hearts content.

Cannot be 100% accurate, but can be a fair approximation. Just like anything else in simulators. Using the principle I mentioned above, as long as there is enough information, through the senses that can be simulated (sight, hearing, vibrations), or by exaggerating some of the information, in the same time that a real pilot would notice similar things; it is a good simulation of reality.

Your suggestion of spelling out exactly what is going on is the opposite of what you are concerned about - flying sensory enhanced, much better than real pilots. The 'symptoms' of something is then instead a line of text, impossible to miss, telling us what is happening, and we can respond like a pro and notice and diagnose the problems every time because we don't have to check for any symptoms at all. The same problem as with IL-2's hud log spelling out status about all the systems even though we already have information similar to a real pilot, even if it is not easy to diagnose problems easily (just like real life is difficult).

[Romanator21]

complete bollocks !

your saying there that there is only 2 states possible for a ww2 pilot in relation to oxygen supply
a) perfectly normal and healthy
b) "far to late" (presumably instant near death state, or death itself)

which is obviously total nonsense

You misunderstood me completely. When one is oxygen deprived, they do not know they are oxygen deprived. It's not as if one is perfectly fine and healthy, and then suddenly die.

Try this experiment: Get only 5 hours of sleep a night for a week. You will not feel tired. In fact you may feel energetic and alert. However, you may notice that you are forgetting things more often, and making more mistakes in every day activity. You THINK you are fine, but really, you are dealing severely reduced mental capacity. You won't suddenly die at the end of that week either, but you may pass out. The difference is that passing out in a plane is pretty dangerous.

Again do a search for hypoxia and exactly what it entails. Here is a quick excerpt:

Unfortunately, the nature of hypoxia makes you, the pilot, the poorest judge of when you are its victim. The first symptoms of oxygen deficiency are misleadingly pleasant, resembling mild intoxication from alcohol. Because oxygen starvation strikes first at the brain, your higher faculties are dulled. Your normal self-critical ability is out of order. Your mind no longer functions properly; your hands and feet become clumsy without being aware of it; you may feel drowsy, languid, and nonchalant; you have a false sense of security; and, the last thing in the world you think you need is oxygen.

As the hypoxia gets worse, you may become dizzy or feel a tingling of the skin. You might have a dull headache, but you are only half aware of it. Oxygen starvation gets worse the longer you remain at a given altitude, or if you climb higher. Your heart races, your lips and the skin under the fingernails begin to turn blue, your field of vision narrows, and the instruments start to look fuzzy. But hypoxia by its nature, a grim deceiver makes you feel confident that you are doing a better job of flying than you have ever done before. You are in about the same condition as the fellow who insists on driving his car home from a New Year's Eve party when he can hardly walk.

What this means is that you will be deprived of oxygen, but you won't be able to tell that you are deprived of oxygen because you are being deprived of oxygen. Carbon monoxide poisoning has similar effects of oxygen deprivation since CO attaches to hemoglobin in the same way as O2. You feel euphoric, maybe a little drowsy. But you are not in the state of mind to say to your self "I am drowsy, this is bad, I must be lacking oxygen". Instead you decide shut your eyes for a few moments...which ends up being the last thing you do.

As for training, you can not know the effects that hypoxia will have on your ability to PERCEIVE it until you've gone through it. I don't think the RAF had pressure chambers for the recruits.

[Oleg Maddox]

3d Modeling:

- Will it be possible to model African wildlife (eg. for a civilian 1930s addon)? What animation supports are there for elephants?

OM: Probably yes. But not right from the beginning. For animation itself it is possible to use many professional and expensive tools, however the main thing is how to port it in engine. We’re planning to issue tools for importing external animations in time.

- Will there be support for wing warping (eg. in the Fokker Eindecker and other early aircraft)?

OM: In aircraft currently modeled it is impossible. If the longeron(main wing spar) is damaged to the moment when possible “warping” then the wing will be out. Simple physics. In realty it may happen, but not in air, say for such aircraft as Spitfire or Messerschmitt. More or less realistic “warping” of some panels due to damage – yes we have it.

- Will it someday be possible to support distortions (bending) of damaged/destroyed aircraft like in Rise of Flight? Or will the game engine always be limited to the still wonderful approach to damage modelling seen in Il-2.

OM: Like in RoF – never. I don’t think that to make incorrect things, replacing real physics is right way. This is my opinion as aviation engineer, but not as a programmer.
Of course for the very old biplanes with bracing construction in some really very rare cases may happens in air some shit damage, _looking_ like distortions, but it can’t be standard and usual situation or often (each time) happened damage.
Really what we are doing is many times more complex and realistic in terms of DM. RoF isn’t even close in comparison to our system modeling and its interaction. I said what I said. Hope you will understand it.


Artificial intelligence:

- Can the amount of variation between AI be set by the mission builder (ie. to simulate more highly drilled english pilots vs. the more unpredictable American pilots in 1943)?

OM: I think yes. There is an option to selects different character. I said character. It’s not a mistake. However it isn’t done yet 100%. But I can say now that we have AI restrictions by level of experience (or by other word – education) and also in additional - by character.
Don’t ask me the types of character. It will be known for all only when I will use it for real advertising later, but not for the speech with you all here.

- Is there support for higher level AI? More specifically is there support for formation level tactics (ie. Something in-between vectoring by ground control and a flights rotte/pairs)?

OM: I can’t tell you all details. I think in interview for the current moment all things were said enough And the short answer of Dima covering well the main part of you request.

- Is there support for airplane specific AI (eg. Yak-7 and YAK-9 would have different AI modules)? Doing so would allow AI to change tactics depending on the airplane and mirror changes in tactics throughout the war (as later variants could use later tactics).

OM: Such things were in Il-2. But in BoB it is way more complex restrictions and specializations.

- How open will the AI be to tweaking and expansion by modders?[/quote]

OM: Probably will be not open. Same reason as above about weather and online gameplay.

Scripting:

- What support is there for music tied to in-game triggers? What about audio files? Will it be possible to have pre-recorded conversations that play out during gameplay?

OM: Wish list. Not less then in Il-2. I can say that there are triggers with the regulating zone – making own mission you may put in some place of the map the point with own sound and define the zone (diameter) on which distance it will begin to work for you aircraft. This is minimum. However you should try to understand how much features such “simple” function may offer you.


- Also, is it possible to have the player activate a trigger via the radio menus?

OM: Interesting … Will put in a wish list. We have not such thing.


Weather model:

- Will the weather model be open to 3rd party modification? (not only changing the weather to reflect a historic date, but changing the model: wind patterns near cliffs, wind from bodies of water etc.)

OM: Can’t say right now. Maybe we will open. However first time – probably no. There is so many innovations, that I don’t like to show for all developers in the world. At least for the first time after the release.


- How does the flight model function at >1 atmospheres (ie. a plane flying in a valley below sea level)?

OM: It is depending of atmosphere density. It is one of the functions.

Minor questions:
- Will it be possible to make minor features of an aircraft (eg. presence or absence of an armoured headrest) selectable via a separate tab (independent of the weapons tab)? This would be good for aircraft that went through many minor upgrades.

OM: Only these things modeled in 3D model and given selectable in menus. Same for third party. So probably in life time of sim series such things will be also possible.

- Will it be possible for the 3rd party to make drivable trains (or will be be limited to trucks)?

OM. If BoB will go on the market with enough success then I can say yes. In principle any vehicles later will be possible to make dive-able. Including from third party without us.

[MikkOwl]

O mighty Oleg,

IL-2 has tail gunners in Bf 110 that we cannot interact with in any way, and in multiplayer, they cannot even communicate.

I wrote suggestions on things I would like to see if you saw that. My question is: what might Storm of War might be offering regarding these important rear crew members (especially in multiplayer with AI tailgunner)?

[Oleg Maddox]

Originally Posted by MikkOwl

O mighty Oleg,

IL-2 has tail gunners in Bf 110 that we cannot interact with in any way, and in multiplayer, they cannot even communicate.

I wrote suggestions on things I would like to see if you saw that. My question is: what might Storm of War might be offering regarding these important rear crew members (especially in multiplayer with AI tailgunner)?

I already answered that we have something changed in that area. In interview. How much will be done - can't say right now. You should understand my position and principles.

I already answered even more than usual was answering in time of the Il-2 peak.