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| Units, artifacts and armor-bearers Discussion, questions and solutions about units, artifacts and armor-bearers. |
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#1
02-19-2010, 08:22 PM
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On average, the royal snake only needs to hit the goblin twice. First hit would be the strike ability which, with 18 attack and 25% crit vs 10 defense, does 14.25 damage. Second hit would be a regular attack which does 12.35 damage. The goblin is more difficult due to the zeroing in ability. Does it increase attack or damage? It says attack, but there are plenty of mistranslations so it could be damage. Without any zeroing in bonus, a goblin's attack, with 16 attack and 10% crit vs 18 defense and 10% physical resistance, does 2.78 damage (24! hits to kill). If zeroing in increases attack, attack would increase by 4.8 (is this rounded up or down? what a mess) per round eventually reaching 78 attack vs 18 defense for a maximum damage of 8.91 (8 hits, still quite a few). If zeroing in increases damage, damage would increase by ... (this is a mess as well) lets say 0.83 (2.78 * 0.3) per turn. 10 hits to kill. I don't see a goblin living long enough to get in that many hits unless the court is VERY large. 
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#2
02-19-2010, 09:32 PM
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Many thanks for the first comments!
Criticism by now is on two matches: 1) marauder vs bear; 2) goblin vs royal snake. I'll handle the more complex case first. 1) here I am not persuaded. Considering relative AT/DE ratio (14/8 for the bear, 12/16 for the marauder), the equal speed, the average damage the bear does (8.5 becoming 14.875 with AT/DE ratio) compared to that done by the marauder (4.5 becoming 3.5), the critical damage the bear does (a weighted 24.75), the health of the bear being 60 to the marauder's 35, it seems a dead sentence for the marauder. If he uses swift stroke then don't forget the bear has the "brutal" skill, meaning his AT doubles for that round, meaning he doesn't counterstrike but his following hit will do an average damage of 25.5 and a critical of 45. Maybe the marauder could use his higher initiative better just defending, but it still looks like curtains for him. 2) here instead I am persuaded. Actually the goblin's speed is 3 and not 2, but in turn I misread the RS's speed, thinking it was 2 like the other snakes when in fact it's 3. This means the goblin cannot keep distance and keep hitting at the same time, so indeed I will use my privilege as organizer, sponsor and supreme judge of the Teana Open to retcon the result of the first round and give a 3-o score to the royal snakes  It still remains an open question if the RS would have won if indeed the goblin had been one unit of speed faster like I erroneously thought he was.
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#3
02-19-2010, 10:31 PM
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Marauder vs Bear:
Start of Turn: IF: Maurader is more than 2 squares away from bear He waits. Bear moves. If he can use no retal ability, he moves to position to do so. IF: Marauder is not more than 2 squares away from bear, or is unable to use no retaliation ability: He runs away, out of range. He shouldn't lose, he may not ever even get hit. Speaking of.. how Does a Polar bear lose to a Thorn Hunter? ( mean, at all, you have it as 3-2 only, like it is a close combat or something). PB has higher init, so it is similar to Marauder. Wait at beginning of turn, and then after thorn moves, move towards it. Activate running only once you are 4 squares away. Should be a snap. It isn't like the thorn has inifinite retreat distance to keep backpedaling through. Last edited by Zechnophobe; 02-19-2010 at 10:33 PM.
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#4
02-20-2010, 06:29 AM
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The higher init would allow the marauder to run when his ability isn't ready and avoid the bear on those turns. This means the marauder gets 2 hits to every bear hit. The no retaliation ability and the retaliation to the bear's hit. Whether or not that's enough to kill the bear, I can't be bothered to check. I already did my math for the day. Edit: I've attached an excel spreadsheet I made. It has all the various stats of different units and does some calculations as well. Damage per Leadership (adjusted for attack and crit), Health per unit (adjusted for defense), Total damage resistance (adjusted for defense and physical resistance). You can plug in your hero's attack/defense/crit/resistance/extra damage (assassin's dagger or whip of pain) and enemy attack/defense at the top. It is lacking the special abilities and talents however. I figure most people would have something similar, but if not they can use mine. I find it helpful so others might as well. Last edited by dashcunning; 02-20-2010 at 07:27 AM.
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#5
02-20-2010, 06:02 AM
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#6
02-20-2010, 07:54 AM
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The Bear definitely beats the Maurader. Both have speed of 2, and the bear clearly wins the tiebreak, so the bear has no need to close to range with the Maurader. If the grid is infinite, the Bear can just turn and run and it's a stalemate; then bear wins tiebreak. If the grid is finite, the bear can gradually herd the Maurader into a corner. The maurader cannot slip by the bear unless there is very unusual terrain (i.e., a loop around which the Maurader can run but the bear cannot) or the maurader is willing to take a hit for it's trouble. AND if the bear is commanded well he can arrange so that the Maurader will always have to suffer a bear attack for each time he wastes a turn not moving so he can use his no-retal attack.
I'm pretty sure the Veteran Orc can win vs. Lake Dragonfly without tiebreak - he only needs to get one hit. If he saves his run ability until he's in the right position, on most grids he can get that one hit in. On an exceptionally large or obstacle-ridden one he can't, but those are... exceptional. The Thorn Hunter shouldn't even come close to beating the Polar Bear - the Thorn Hunter does 1-2 damage, with attack 4. The polar bear has defense 26, so the effective damage is basically 1. It would need to hit the polar bear 130 times to kill it. Meanwhile, the polar bear need only get in one hit. And since the polar bear has the run ability plus higher initiative, the polar bear can hit the thorn if the thorn ever ends a turn within a radius of 6 of the polar bear (polar bear waits. Thorn moves. If the thorn is within 6, polar bear uses run to close 4 spaces, then moves the remaining 2 at the start of the next turn). On an infinitely large grid the thorn wins, but even on a large 12x12 grid the polar bear can simply stand in the middle, then slowly inch towards the thorn hunter cutting off space until it gets the kill. Bowmen vs. imps is definitely strongly in the imps favor. The imps always strike first due to higher initiative; thanks to throwing two fireballs while they close the gap they'll get a hit in every turn, their attacks do more damage (on average) than the bowmen, they have almost equal health (32 to 34), and once the imps close the gap if they're smart they'll move right up next to the bowmen before launching strike-and-return attacks... meaning they can corner the bowmen, and on the 5th, 7th, 9th, etc. turns (possibly 6th, 8th, 10th, etc. or 4th, 6th, 8th, etc. depending on the size of the grid) the bowmen will be stuck in melee range - meaning they get no attack that turn. I'd predict the bowman die around turn 7, by which time I'd expect them to have done maybe 18 damage to the imps. And that's assuming the bowmen don't take any burning damage over time from the imp's fireball, which they might. Otherwise I think I agree with all your judgements.
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#7
02-20-2010, 08:59 AM
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Once again thanks to everybody for reading and commenting upon this crooked topic!
Dashcunning already replied to zechnophobe along the lines I would have used to argue in favor of the bear beating the marauder. The speed of the goblin: I checked on a save file and indeed it's 2. However the table in pdf format I dl'd somewhere from this forum gives the speed as 3. Since I couldn't look up all 96 units in game, I used this table as a reference. If it has more errors then of course some results may be a little askew as well. As for the thorn hunter - polar bear issue... a clarification I already presented in the first post: When I use "3-1" and "3-2" I do NOT mean "team a wins 3 times out of four" or "team a wins 3 times out of 5". I just mean "3-1: I am pretty sure team A wins, however there is some doubt, for example if team B is exceptionally lucky or the grid is very peculiar", "3-2: I think team A wins, however there are so many variables that much deeper calculation would be required and, due to the random aspect of many variables, would still probably not settle the matter once and for all". Probably the TH-PB match should have been 1-3 rather than 2-3, but I gave the PB as winners anyway so I don't think a correction is really needed. The tennis jargon is just an analogy, after all this is the KB universe... I do not envision the loser to go showering and think about better tactics after fighting 5 times, I envision one fight to the death with the winner surviving, and only one unit alive after 7 rounds 
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#8
02-20-2010, 09:13 AM
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And here is round 2, top half.
Black Dragon (1) 3 Priest 0 Black Unicorn 2 Assassin (32) 3 Ent (17) 3 Elf 0 Griffin 1 Alchemist (16) 3T Ancient Ent (9) 3 Gorgul 0 Beholder 2 Archmage (24) 3 Shaman (25) 3 Guard Droid 0 Bear 0 Bone Dragon (8 ) 3 A few interesting matches here. The BD toasts the priest immediately, the ent has no problems taking out the elf from distance through swarm (takes some rounds but is quite settled through higher AT, DE and health), bone dragon, AE and shaman should have no trouble respectively with bear, gorgul and guard droid. Griffin-alchemist, I think, goes to tie-break. Initiative is equal. The ranged attacks of the A either are charge-based or have short range, so the griffin could keep distance but would go down in restricted space. I say 3-1 and not 3-0 after TB because maybe I am overlooking something. Black unicorn - assassin. This has many variables. My guess is venomous+no retaliation more than makes up for the BU's higher health and average damage. Also keep in mind the A has high critical (25%) so there's a good chance he will strike some hefty hits. Beholder-Archmage. An interesting battle at long range. I think - but may be mistaken - that protecting himself with magic shield the AM will be the winner.
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#9
02-20-2010, 09:27 AM
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Ooops, sorry, of course that was only top half of the top half... here are the other eight fights to complete the first half of the draw.
Giant (5) 3 Guardsman 0 Veteran Orc 0 Ancient Vampire (28 ) 3 Cannoneer (21) 3 Catapult 0 Vampire 3 retconned to 0-3  Royal Thorn (12) 2 Executioner (13) 3 Dwarf 0 Inquisitor 0 Chosha (20) 3 Knight (29) 3T Hayterant 2 Sea Dog 0 Green Dragon (4) 3 A quick word only on the two matches I consider uncertain. The Hayterant can keep away from the knight but would lose on TB. However it's possible that combining higher initiative with sharp beak the H could pull off hit&run tactics to snatch victory. Deeper calculations are welcome. We also have the first eliminated high-ranking unit. I think regeneration+no retaliation allows the vampire to beat the royal thorn, counting also his higher initiative. Maybe sowing however could switch the balance. Again, the word to the experts. Last edited by Lord Ludwig; 02-21-2010 at 03:38 PM.
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