HE162 Salamanda a how did it even work?

[Doktorwzzerd]

Originally Posted by Swagger7

Yeah, Hitler was a 'tard, but I think Sea Lion could have succeeded. It just wouldn't have had a big impact on the final outcome of the war. The problem with using the Royal Navy to stop the invasion is that the invasion wouldn't have started until the RAF was thrashed. Then, the Luftwaffe could have seriously mangled the navy if it tried to interfere. Look what a couple of squadrons of Japanese bombers did to HMS Wales & HMS Repulse. Also, the Kriegsmarine could have filled the channel with dozens of U-boats, waiting silently at periscope depth to launch down the throat torpedo attacks on the RN. The Germans could also have mined the channel at night to deny the navy access.

OK good points, no doubt the RN would take very heavy losses, but I still think they would have had the power to impede the landings and keep the Germans from adequately supplying their beachheads. All of your points about the RNs vulnerability to aerial attack are true, however also don't forget how immensely difficult amphibious landings are, both tactically and logistically.

Let's compare D-Day to a hypothetical Sea-Lion. The Germans had no air superiority, no surface navy and a much longer coastline to defend in 1944. Also in 1944 the allies possessed naval, manpower and logistical resources that the Germans contemplating Sea-Lion could never hope to match, and Overlord was still, in the words of Ike "the damned closest run thing you ever saw".

The Wehrmacht attempting Sea-Lion would have a much more limited range of potential landing sites, making it easier for the British to concentrate their defense. Sea-Lion would both lack a surface fleet of its own and it would be harassed by the largest navy in Europe. Also the Wehrmacht had absolutely no experience with amphibious landings, whereas the Allies by 1944 had considerable experience gained from Dieppe, Sicily, Italy, Norway, North Africa and the Pacific theater.

Could Sea-Lion have worked in the event that the RAF was neutralized? Maybe, but I think the odds are heavily against it. My guess is that it would have looked less like D-Day and more like Dieppe or Gallipoli.

[Swagger7]

Originally Posted by Doktorwzzerd

OK good points, no doubt the RN would take very heavy losses, but I still think they would have had the power to impede the landings and keep the Germans from adequately supplying their beachheads. All of your points about the RNs vulnerability to aerial attack are true, however also don't forget how immensely difficult amphibious landings are, both tactically and logistically.

Let's compare D-Day to a hypothetical Sea-Lion. The Germans had no air superiority, no surface navy and a much longer coastline to defend in 1944. Also in 1944 the allies possessed naval, manpower and logistical resources that the Germans contemplating Sea-Lion could never hope to match, and Overlord was still, in the words of Ike "the damned closest run thing you ever saw".

The Wehrmacht attempting Sea-Lion would have a much more limited range of potential landing sites, making it easier for the British to concentrate their defense. Sea-Lion would both lack a surface fleet of its own and it would be harassed by the largest navy in Europe. Also the Wehrmacht had absolutely no experience with amphibious landings, whereas the Allies by 1944 had considerable experience gained from Dieppe, Sicily, Italy, Norway, North Africa and the Pacific theater.

Could Sea-Lion have worked in the event that the RAF was neutralized? Maybe, but I think the odds are heavily against it. My guess is that it would have looked less like D-Day and more like Dieppe or Gallipoli.

That's true. Hitler did have really crappy landing craft (as Tentacle19 mentioned) Although you don't need much in the way of transport if you can make the landing unopposed. Keep in mind that during the beginning of the Battle of Britain the British Army was short on manpower and had little armor. If the panzers could have gotten ashore early in the battle they'd probably have rolled right over England. If they couldn't get off the beach then it'd be more like Gallipoli like you said. In the end it's all just speculation. Although if Hitler had done the following:
1. Attack the British Army at Dunkirk, rather than forcing his generals to hold back.
2. Built proper landing craft
3. Concentrated solely on destroying the RAF on the ground & in the air.
...then it's probable that Britain would have fallen. But he didn't do any of that ('cause he was a frikkin moron), so this is all just speculation.

[Doktorwzzerd]

Originally Posted by Swagger7

That's true. Hitler did have really crappy landing craft (as Tentacle19 mentioned) Although you don't need much in the way of transport if you can make the landing unopposed. Keep in mind that during the beginning of the Battle of Britain the British Army was short on manpower and had little armor. If the panzers could have gotten ashore early in the battle they'd probably have rolled right over England. If they couldn't get off the beach then it'd be more like Gallipoli like you said. In the end it's all just speculation. Although if Hitler had done the following:
1. Attack the British Army at Dunkirk, rather than forcing his generals to hold back.
2. Built proper landing craft
3. Concentrated solely on destroying the RAF on the ground & in the air.
...then it's probable that Britain would have fallen. But he didn't do any of that ('cause he was a frikkin moron), so this is all just speculation.

Ahhh but you really have to think about the logistical side of Sea Lion, panzers need fuel, infantry needs ammo, food and LOTS of it. The problems of supply are what I think would really dog Sea-Lion, much more so than any battles on the beaches. I would guess if the British could stop the Germans before they could get to London (and I think they could) the supply problems would become a MAJOR headache for the Germans. Logistics is something the Germans were never very good at, look at the North Africa campaign, Russia etc. Their inability to keep their supply lines open over water was a major reason why Rommel lost and they would face the exact same situation in any cross channel adventure, RAF or no RAF.

[Swagger7]

Originally Posted by Doktorwzzerd

Ahhh but you really have to think about the logistical side of Sea Lion, panzers need fuel, infantry needs ammo, food and LOTS of it. The problems of supply are what I think would really dog Sea-Lion, much more so than any battles on the beaches. I would guess if the British could stop the Germans before they could get to London (and I think they could) the supply problems would become a MAJOR headache for the Germans. Logistics is something the Germans were never very good at, look at the North Africa campaign, Russia etc. Their inability to keep their supply lines open over water was a major reason why Rommel lost and they would face the exact same situation in any cross channel adventure, RAF or no RAF.

The reason Rommel's supply lines were cut is because the British broke the Enigma codes & always knew where the convoys were. The Channel is too narrow for that to work (not enough time to decode & send someone to intercept). Also, if the Germans had air superiority they could defend their convoys from above, unlike in the Med. As far as stopping the German army at London goes, remember my scenario had the forces at Dunkirk getting wiped out. Early on in the BoB the British literally had no ground forces apart from the forces that returned from France. This is why the Home Guard was training with pitchforks and shovels. If the French & British armies couldn't stop them on the mainland, I don't think a bunch of ill trained guys with hunting rifles and shotguns would have even slowed them down. Again though, we're talking about a scenario where Hitler acted more intelligently and the Luftwaffe gained early air superiority. (There are some who argue that they were very close when they redirected their attacks to London)

[Doktorwzzerd]

Originally Posted by Swagger7

The reason Rommel's supply lines were cut is because the British broke the Enigma codes & always knew where the convoys were. The Channel is too narrow for that to work (not enough time to decode & send someone to intercept). Also, if the Germans had air superiority they could defend their convoys from above, unlike in the Med. As far as stopping the German army at London goes, remember my scenario had the forces at Dunkirk getting wiped out. Early on in the BoB the British literally had no ground forces apart from the forces that returned from France. This is why the Home Guard was training with pitchforks and shovels. If the French & British armies couldn't stop them on the mainland, I don't think a bunch of ill trained guys with hunting rifles and shotguns would have even slowed them down. Again though, we're talking about a scenario where Hitler acted more intelligently and the Luftwaffe gained early air superiority. (There are some who argue that they were very close when they redirected their attacks to London)

As you said this is all hypothetical, so it largely a matter of opinion, that being said, forgive me while I dork out

I disagree about the English use of Enigma decrypts in the Mediterranean being critical to cutting Rommel's supply lines as English Intelligence had to use those decrypts very sparingly lest the Germans catch on. Mainly they were using them for strategic applications and not tactical ones. Also when you have overwhelming and unchallenged naval superiority, omnipotent intelligence of the kind Ultra provided isn't necessary to interdict the enemy's shipping. This really is a matter of opinion, but I am unconvinced that the Luftwaffe could have stopped the Royal Navy completely from carrying out its mission, and I am certain they couldn't have stopped the RN at night. I take your points about the Japanese victories against undefended capital ships early in WW2, but recall that the Japanese spent a lot of time training for that very mission. I doubt the Luftwaffe would have been as effective against the Royal Navy, but I admittedly I can't prove that.

As for the home guard, they were not the only military formation in England, there were several divisions of the regular British Army that never went to France available for defense. The Home Guard were more analogous to the Volksstorm than any regular army unit, hence the pitchforks. Also England had built an extensive line of fortifications that would have greatly frustrated German armor; I don't think that one should assume a rapid German breakout based on these factors. Don't forget, we are assuming that operation Eagle would have worked, meaning that this hypothetical Sea-Lion would have taken place in August or September of 1940, not June immediately after Dunkirk, so the British Army would have been much more prepared than you are suggesting.

I guess it really all comes down to a few critical issues, if the Luftwaffe could have safe guarded the German supply lines against the RN, and if the Germans could have gotten off the beaches rapidly, and if the Germans could have gotten enough shipping to supply their troops and if they could have seized a port early that could harbor their shipping, then yes Sea Lion could have succeeded, but thats a lot of ifs and that why I would give it a low probability.

At any rate theres a lot of good points on both side of the argument, check out the Wikipedia article, its pretty interesting.