SM.79 porked (or forgotten) damage model

[Lucas_From_Hell]

As you wish, mate.

Here they are:

http://www.4shared.com/file/13819986...M79_sdown.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/13819985...-_sdown_2.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/13819987...wn_3_-_PK.html

Now, if you don't believe, then I don't know what else to do...

Oh, and about cutting the wing with a short burst, I didn't. The engine exploded, ripping the wing off .

[proton45]

Originally Posted by Tipo_Man

Well, looks like you had a hard time guys, don't you?

Lucas, would you post your TRACKS please? There is something... strange.

So here it is, the impervious pilot of the SM.79.
As you see, shooting from the dorsal machine gun of a He-111 from a point black range has no effect on the pilot...

I knew the italians are tough guys.... but still....

Also could somebody explain me what exactly stops the bullets here from killing the gunner and the pilots?



Hmmm.. some thin wood stops a MG bullet?!
Hey Lucas, will you stay behind such a shield, if I shoot at you with a machine gun...


And Lucas, do your test with I-16, or something with 2-4 MGs, as I wrote... You have a whole day to make attempts. I'm sure till midnight you'll come with another smashing video. But this time, with tracks, please

Hello, Tipo_Man...
Do you have "TRACKS" for the pictures you posted? I'd love to check them out...

[Tipo_Man]

Originally Posted by proton45

Hello, Tipo_Man...
Do you have "TRACKS" for the pictures you posted? I'd love to check them out...

Unfortunately, till Friday, won't be able to post them.
But it won't be a problem to recreate that picture.
In conf.ini set:
Arcade=1
and start shooting...

[KG26_Alpha]

Hmm

I've never been one for posting screen shots and tracks of how to shoot things down, but this threads typical of one seen many times over and over, the years.
Stukas suffered the worst years ago due to whining from DF servers trying to recreate BoB maps on Crimea using the Stuka B-2 Eastern front as a BoB Stuka, consequentially its DM was weakened so Hurris could set them on fire and kill them in their droves, I hope the SM 79 DM doesn't go the same way.

I have no problem downing this aircraft with any Mg's

Poor tactics will always lead to pilots moaning about plane being too tough.

Here's a screen shot of a head on pass using a I53 M-62 Arming 4 x 7.62mm mg

Settings are the usual realistic gunnery on etce etc

After a single headon pass slightly to the left of the SM79 with rudder applied, SM 79 drops payload and is out of the mission it eventually spirals down and crashes, by which time you would have moved on to the next target.



Track below

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=YM2NBP82

[Lucas_From_Hell]

110% agreed, Alpha.

I just can't understand why some IL-2 fans love to whine that much... Unless you hacked some government computers, there's little chance of you having access to more (and more reliable) information than the developers. Doing a game or an official add-on is way different of making those ugly franken-planes with bizarre flight and damage models some still claim to be better than the originals...

Why to whine? "Man, the damage model is horrible! I can't kill it!" Be a man and go train some gunnery or find a way around the "porked" damage model of the planes that only fails with you because they hate you so much that they made you download a different version than the rest of the world, so that you would die trying to shoot down the S.M.79. Need examples? I sent you the tracks you asked for, and you didn't answered me so far. I also put the video on YouTube, for easy viewing, but of course, when something is different than you expected, it's always cheating or video editing...

Please, if you can't shoot a 1936 bomber down, hang yourself, or improve your gunnery, or go fly those boilers of Flight Simulator. We have prooved you it can be done, so stop the whining and, please, admit you were wrong. It's better for everyone.

By the way, it's funny how people sometimes get irritated about jokes Please don't take me badly, mate. The vid was just a way of having fun

Nice Track Alpha, I know we all want realism but surely that is down to how the pilot fly's, maybe an inexperienced pilot would attack a bomber from behind and then just stay there hoping to get a kill, but in doing so taking hits himself. From most books I have read most pilots would make a pass on an aircraft hoping to get critical damage and then break off and find another target very much like Alpha has done here, obviously attacking in a position that would be least likely for you to sustain damage would be prefered.

[Fearfactor]

Originally Posted by 28_Condor

S!



SM.79 has fame of "invulnerability" during Civil War in Spain, this is hitorically correct.

"The first recorded interception of a SM.79 formation took place on 11 October 1937 when three aircraft were attacked by 12 Polikarpov I-16s (known as the ''Rata'' (Rat) to the Spanish Nationalists). One of SM.79s was damaged by repeated attacks made by the slightly faster ''Ratas'', but its defences prevented the attackers from pressing close-in attacks. All the bombers returned to base, although one had been hit by 27 bullets, many hitting the fuel tanks. A few other examples of similar interceptions occurred in this conflict, without any SM.79s being lost.
Combat experiences revealed some deficiencies in the SM.79: the lack of oxygen at high altitudes, instability, vibrations experienced at speeds over 400 km/h and other problems were encountered and sometimes solved. Gen. Valle, in an attempt to answer some of the criticisms about the ability of the aircraft to operate at night (because its wingload and other characteristics were controversial) took off from Guidonia and bombed Barcelona, a journey of six hours and 15 minutes. On this occasion the aircraft proved it had a useful range (around 1,000 km with eight 100 kg bombs, for a total gross weight of around 1,000 kg). Normally SM.79s operated from the Balearic Islands and later from mainland Spain. Hundreds of missions were performed in a wide range of different roles against Republican targets. No Fiat CR.32s were needed to escort the SM.79s, partly because the biplane fighters were too slow."

Persue SM.79 with I-16 5-6 or 10 (not in game) is non-sense

http://tripatlas.com/Savoia-Marchetti_SM.79

I'm not on the side of the "too tough" whiners but this historical excerpt your are quoting proves nothing except possibly that the I-16 pilots were cowardly or did not know how to properly press an attack against a bomber. They certainly seem a bit skittish and lacking in determination and aggressiveness. The fact that only 27 bullets were landed drives home this point. That's typically only three seconds of fire time for a machine gune with an average rate of fire. And possilby only two seconds for a Russian mg, which had faster rates of fire than average mg's. Also, lack of experience on the part of the I-16 pilots might have factored in. Also one must remember that there was little if any participation by either the Spanish or Russians in W.W.I, especially in the realm of aviation.

At this time in history, little was known yet or developed yet as far as properly attacking heavy gunner defended bombers. Some knowledge was gained in W.W.I but this was apparently lost information or the tactics were simply not studied by the I-16 pilots in question.

And considering that virtual pilots playing this game are likely to be far braver since their lives are not actually in jeopardy in a game, it should be likely that they'd have a much better chance of success than the real life pilots in the Spanish civil war. So did the SM.79 have such "invulnerability" or was there a lack of something on the part of the enemy fighter pilots? Maybe they just wanted to go home to their wives and kids and were not heavily into what they were fighting for? That account indicates the fighter pilots stood off very badly. Unwarranted fear of attacking the Marchetti might have persisted throughout that war so the supposed invulnerability of this bomber might have been wildly exaggerated. If a bomber is never attacked like it should be attacked, how could one properly gauge the real strength of the bomber in question?

[satan]

I owe an apology.

I believed that when i collided several times (rammed) wing to wing with my fighter ( hurricane destroyed) it was that the sm79 was too strong.

I now believe that to be incorrect.

I have been doing testing with tracks i assume that what had happened was the top gunner had critically wounded my plane at point blank range and i mistook this for my aircraft hitting the sm79's wings.

That rear top gun is a real killer (see attached track)

It's a 12.7mm correct???

regards
Satan

[Letum]

Anyone noticed how easy it is to down with 20mm rounds? (Very!)

[150GCT_Diego]

Typo man, i'm sorry, but it's all your fault.

Either you don't know how to shoot or you have a bugged version of the game, in whitch Your weapon didn't work OR the SM79 it's invulnerable.

Really, i have tried to kill the pilot with ONLY the ventral gunner of another SM79, and i did it twice, with another kill with a side gunner, and here is the record ( the firs plane is already diving for the ground, but you can clearly see the pilot still inside and the parachute of the other crewmembers in the background.
The second plane just exploded ( but again, you can clearly see that the pilot's hatch is not ejected), and the third one is a clear pilot ( and second pilot too if i remember correct ) kill.
You can still see him in his seat.
I don't know how to post it on youtube, but i authorize anyone who know how to do, it to post it, to show everyone that even a novice pilot ( me ), entered in a fighting group from less than 3 months ( and with only a dozen of lessons ) and with very few flying skills and gunnery skills can shoot down an SM79 with ONLY ONE 12.7 machinegun.
Obviously i set the plane for be my wingman, so i can easly shoot to them from the front, carefully aiming for the pilot.
I did that to check the damage model ( and because, as i said before, i am not a great pilot ).


But you are right in one of your older post, 27 shots taken it's not that much, and nearly not as much as the 200 holes with whitch th he111 came back from London's raid.
Probably 300 or 400 may build a little legend of a sturdy airplane, and 500 or 600 could build a normal legend.
But sadly, SM79 can't show such kind of record.











It can only show a plane returning in Addis Abeba With 800 holes after been attacked by 2 .303 armed hurricanes and 2 gladiator.
In defence of the english plane, i have to say that there were 2 SM 79, and hat the two gladiators were quikly left behind.
And that's just one of the stories about SM79.

As i have said a couple of pages before.





So, we started with an invulnerabile plane that can't be shoot down non damaged or it's crew killed, proceeded up to a plane that is possible to damage ( black smoke from the engine, fuel leak and wounded or dead crewmembers ) with relative ease, but the pilot it's still invulnerable, and then ended to a "normal" plane, just a little fast and well armed, and with a pilot thath can't be killed shooting from dead six ( in these last case i can't say anything, beacause i don't know how to check it by myself or try to do it by myself [remember: i'm not that great pilot] ).

By the way, from the initial
"No specific spots to hit ot damage.
No fuel leaks, cut cables.
No pilot or gunners kills, neither fires."
i think that'sa good progress.



P.S. :
The ZIP file contain the track for il2, i hope it work correctly.
And again, i'm sorry for my english