To close the Topic on P51s and FWs once for all

[Benrizz]

EDIT: ok ok I admit that my title is a bit provocative... but the graphs hereafter could be useful

Please read that. It is an extract from an article on Simhq.com on understanding and managing energy during a dogfight. Hereafter the author assume that we are in a P51 against a Spit IX

For more info read : http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_011a.html

With that graph you can clearly see that the P51 is undoubtly an energy fighter compared to the Spit wich is an angle (turning fighter).

The upper thick red and blue curve represents the maximum instantaneous turn rate of each plane while the bottom curve shows the sustained turn rate (when you don't loose speed while turning)

You understand that the P-51 has an advantage above 255mph but a Spit can out turn a P51, even from above 255mph if it trades his airspeed for angles and be in a position for a shot fairly quickly[/QUOTE]

(turn rate on one axis in degrees per second (dps) and true airspeed on the other in mph)



Why do I present you those infos ? Because even if the Spit mkIX can out turn the P51D, the P51D is undoubtly considered has a better end war fighter than the spit MkIX

And Why because :

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The reason is simply that in reality the desire to live is paramount, but in fact for the sim jock, nothing is farther from the truth. [...] The important thing to remember here is that in contrast with the real world, you have very different priorities as a simulator pilot. For us, life is cheap, and so some of the performance attributes of the various aircraft become weighted very differently. In W.W.II, for example, speed was far more valuable to real pilots than it is to simulator pilots. A real pilot would no doubt have found a turning engagement both physically and mentally draining, due to the mix of extreme concentration, physical exertion, heart pounding amounts of adrenaline, all tinged with varying degrees of fear! No doubt that was a large factor in explaining why turning engagements were the exception rather than the rule. Around 80% of shoot downs involved the element of surprise, high speed, 1g attacks. In contrast, simulator pilots can enjoy the challenge of a high g dogfight with their flight stick in one hand and a beer in the other. The price of defeat? Nothing more than a mildly bruised ego and a few more practice sessions before the next match. If you really wanted to live, the P-51, Fw-190 and other fast aircraft are exactly the aircraft to choose!

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That is why while history considers P51 and FWs as the best fighters, we gamers find the Yak3 (or even IL2) best suitable for our game.

In the same article the autor shows that the Spit MKV is an angle fighter compared to the spit MKIX. Therefore the Spit MkV would be more suitable for our turning dogfight than the spit MKIX, but military history considers the MKIX more performant

Hope its clear

[HauptmannMolders]

Impressive and enlightening. Thank you.

[King Jareth]

Similar to why Suppressive Fire never works on FPS games* even though its the cornerstone of modern millitary doctrine, who cares if you die?

(*-and why Full Spectrum Warrior was ace)

[guiltyspark]

summed up...

IRL pilots didnt circle jerk because it was alot more deadly to the pilots in the turning circle.

Instead they would usually make one pass at an aircraft and get away/ go home

with or without a kill but still with their lives

[Benrizz]

Another graph which could be useful where you see the advantages of using both WEP and FLAPS during a dogfight. This graph is slighltly different from the previous one because this graph assume that blackout occurs at 7-8g while the previous one blackouts occurs at 6 g

[play2often]

this does make a lot of sense... although ambushing and then running home after a few seconds doesn't make for an extremely fun game....

[Pup]

Interesting graph, but I don't see what topic this is meant to close. If it's the ones where people have complained that the P51 is a dog to fly in game, and started to stall at even very slight turning rates, then the fact that the developers have mentioned this will be fixed because it is modelled with full fuel tanks, has already put that topic to rest (for now). I don't remember anyone saying that the P51 should turn faster than a Spitfire though.

[MorgothNL]

Originally Posted by Pup

I don't remember anyone saying that the P51 should turn faster than a Spitfire though.

Is THIS the point he is trying to prove? I read the post a few times, and looked at the graph. I understood it all, but I did not get what topic he was trying to close . I thought he was trying to prove that the P-51 was accurate or no in this game. now i get it .

Dont think anyone who knows a bit about ww2 planes, thinks the p-51 can outturn the spit, right?

Thnx for the info anyways , for whatever reason it was posted

[FOZ_1983]

hmmm

[Lincoln's Revenge]

In dubya dubya too, as in the first world war, everyone played on simulator mode.. so without "radar" it was extremely common to be shot out of the sky from the six o'clock low without detection of your adversary until you were in a flaming world of sh*t.

I enjoy the hell out of this game on realistic mode or simulator, unlimited ammo and all.. but I'm really looking forward to the corrected flight models for the P-51 and FW-190's.

It might also be fun if the developers limited the use of WEP in realistic mode in accordance with the various engine profiles and capabilities. In realistic mode I'm running it 90% of the time for 20 minutes on end without consequence. Added strategic elements are fun for everyone.