Using the fockewulf 190

[David603]

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

True, but if your flying a 190D-9 in Yak-3 territory, don't expect to get anywhere quick. If your flying a Yak-3 at 25,000 feet, then its vise versa.

I found this nice little tool called Il2 Compare v4.07m this morning, it has the top speeds, climb rates and turn times of every plane in Il2 1946, barring the mod planes of course Since the planes in BoP use the same flight models, all the data should be the same.

The 190D9 is about 40km/h faster at sea level and 80km/h faster at 15,000ft, enjoys a climb rate advantage over the Yak-3 at any altitude, and can outmanoeuvre the Yak-3 if the combat speeds are kept over 300mph, though if the combat speeds drop to 200mph or so the Yak-3 will have a major advantage. So long as a D9 pilot doesn't slow down and play the low speed turning game the Yak-3 is so good at they shouldn't have to worry too much.

[Soviet Ace]

Originally Posted by David603

I found this nice little tool called Il2 Compare v4.07m this morning, it has the top speeds, climb rates and turn times of every plane in Il2 1946, barring the mod planes of course Since the planes in BoP use the same flight models, all the data should be the same.

The 190D9 is about 40km/h faster at sea level and 80km/h faster at 15,000ft, enjoys a climb rate advantage over the Yak-3 at any altitude, and can outmanoeuvre the Yak-3 if the combat speeds are kept over 300mph, though if the combat speeds drop to 200mph or so the Yak-3 will have a major advantage. So long as a D9 pilot doesn't slow down and play the low speed turning game the Yak-3 is so good at they shouldn't have to worry too much.

Well of course, the D9 is meant for speed, and really for high altitudes. But the Yak-3 would never have challenged a D9 because it was meant for T&B fighting, and T&B fighting with prop planes, does not involve high speeds since the main point, is to turn inside your enemy, and just let them have it. So the D9 and Yak-3 would not have been a good match since between the two, there is no middle ground for a good even dogfight.

[husker]

There are two responses I'd like to offer:

1. BoP is not really the same as true air combat. In the second WW2 (Grandpa Simpson...), German tactics were largely based on 'hit and run'.

Air combat is the most ruthless game there is - ideally, you want to arrange it so that you kill your enemy before they know you are there. The Germans NEVER went for a level playing field eg the co-energy, co-altitude head-to-head merge (as in BoP on-line or some of the relatively artificial set-ups in the single player game). The 1v1 dogfight was considered to be a failure, not a success. Eric Hartmann, the guy who had 352 kills to his credit, would never DF; the vast majority of his kills never saw him (until it was too late).

German tactics were to stalk and bounce their unsuspecting prey, slashing down from the sun or cloud, from altitude, and at speed (they all flew around on full throttle), disengaged, and took a coffee break. Only if all the advantages were in their favour would they try again. It is very hard to replicate this in BoP online (or anywhere in the game, given the limitations of the console format).

In this respect, the Fw-190 was vastly superior to the Spit MkVb, which could not dive, climb or roll anything like as well as the Fw-190. The Spit's only advantage was turn radius, which was only of any use in a sustained turning fight, which the German's didn't join in with - you dictate the fight on YOUR terms, not the enemies. Harsh, but fair. It was only the Spit's MkIX-XIV that could counter the Fw-190 in this respect.

In many ways, excellent roll rate is the best tool you can have both for attack and defence, as it expends little energy and allows rapid changes of direction. Turn radius is only an advantage if you can bring your guns to bear rapidly on an enemy (within a turn and a half), otherwise you'll be out of energy and out of a job (permanently).

2. The only way you can outmanoeuvre a better turning opponent in the Fw-190 is by using the lag (or vector) roll. So, as the enemy breaks left, instead of yanking back on the stick and following him/her round (most likely stalling and spinning to death as in a real Fw-190), you use your superior roll rate to roll RIGHT (away from the bandit) and then roll all the way back to the left, - hey presto! You've cut the corner! Thunderbolt pilots used the same tactic against the Bf-109. Of course, adding a vertical element (like the yo-yo) can help with closure problems but mastering the vector roll will set you up for repeated victories.

As has been pointed, the scissors only works for the Fw-190 if they are high speed. You never want to play along with a low-speed scissors. Just extend, re-position and shoot or disengage.

Check out Mike Spick's book on the Luftwaffe aces or Robert Shaw's book on air combat for confirmation of the above.

[David603]

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

Well of course, the D9 is meant for speed, and really for high altitudes. But the Yak-3 would never have challenged a D9 because it was meant for T&B fighting, and T&B fighting with prop planes, does not involve high speeds since the main point, is to turn inside your enemy, and just let them have it. So the D9 and Yak-3 would not have been a good match since between the two, there is no middle ground for a good even dogfight.

Yeah, I agree a Yak-3 pilot probably won't want to challenge a D9 to a duel, but given the D9s speed advantage he might not have the choice. Really these are two planes that have a very strong orientation towards different styles of fighting, if either tries to play the others game they will be outclassed.

The Yak-3's problem here is that the faster, quicker climbing plane in any confrontation gets to choose which game both will play. That's why I love flying planes like the 109K and Spitfire XIV myself.

[Soviet Ace]

Originally Posted by David603

Yeah, I agree a Yak-3 pilot probably won't want to challenge a D9 to a duel, but given the D9s speed advantage he might not have the choice. Really these are two planes that have a very strong orientation towards different styles of fighting, if either tries to play the others game they will be outclassed.

The Yak-3's problem here is that the faster, quicker climbing plane in any confrontation gets to choose which game both will play. That's why I love flying planes like the 109K and Spitfire XIV myself.

That's true to a sense, but just look at the Zero and the way they fought. They were light, fast, and maneuverable, but they chewed the American Wildcats, and P-40s up because of their low and quick tactics. I think it just depends on the situation really?

[David603]

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

That's true to a sense, but just look at the Zero and the way they fought. They were light, fast, and maneuverable, but they chewed the American Wildcats, and P-40s up because of their low and quick tactics. I think it just depends on the situation really?

Zero Vs Wildcat is biased pretty heavily in the Zero's favour, not only are they more manoeuvrable but they are faster and climb better. Zero Vs P40 is another matter, because while the Zero is still more agile and climbs better, the P40 does have a speed advantage, and combined with the P40s better high speed handling it gives the P40 an edge the P40 pilot can exploit over the Zero.

I suppose it does depend on the situation, but with a Yak-3 vs a Fw190D9 the 190 pilot is the one who decides the situation, and he would be stupid to pick the situation that favours the Yak-3.

[Soviet Ace]

Originally Posted by David603

Zero Vs Wildcat is biased pretty heavily in the Zero's favour, not only are they more manoeuvrable but they are faster and climb better. Zero Vs P40 is another matter, because while the Zero is still more agile and climbs better, the P40 does have a speed advantage, and combined with the P40s better high speed handling it gives the P40 an edge the P40 pilot can exploit over the Zero.

I suppose it does depend on the situation, but with a Yak-3 vs a Fw190D9 the 190 pilot is the one who decides the situation, and he would be stupid to pick the situation that favoured the Yak-3.

I dunno, I think a GM built FM2 Wilcat would be better, since they were A LOT better than the F4F series. But anyway, it just depends on the situation, and who gets the jump on who first?

[David603]

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

I dunno, I think a GM built FM2 Wilcat would be better, since they were A LOT better than the F4F series. But anyway, it just depends on the situation, and who gets the jump on who first?

Yeah, the FM series of Wildcat is an improvement over the older models, but the A6M5 is at least as big an improvement over the A6M2, so given the choice I would rather be flying a Hellcat or Corsair against Zeros.

Anyway, while it is quite possible the Yak-3 pilot could get the jump on the D9, all other factors being equal the plane that flies higher and faster is more likely to be the one that jumps the other or at least enters combat with an energy advantage.

[Tentacle19]

Regarding the D-9 in real life:

"Kurt Tank had designed this model to operate as a high altitude fighter but the cabin design was unable to provide adequate pressurization. The aircraft was used to replace The FW 190A at lower altitudes and coincidentally was sometimes humorously referred to as “Downstairs Dora” or “Maid”."

A great plane that while achieving parity with allied fighters suffered heavy losses ( no experienced pilots left ). None the less it is still my favorite german fighter looks wise.