Help dogfighting (and moderating speed)

[Haklangr]

Hello all. I've recently picked up the game, and I've read a few basic guides for it. I think I know most of the basics: I can fly/recover/take off/land alright, and all that. I have the settings all the way over on the "Realistic" side -- except I do have map icons, player map icon, and minimap path on, because I'm rubbish at navigating and want to concentrate on mastering the flight portion first. I am trying to make sure I know what all the gauges in the cockpits of my chosen planes are, though, as I do intend to turn every "cheating" aid off eventually.

Anyway, I've been flying a few missions, but I'm having trouble getting to grips with the enemy. Current example: a flight of enemy planes (Russian LaGGs? Il-2s? I can't remember -- it's a Bf109G-6 mission) appears heading directly toward me and my wingmen, at about the same altitude. Considering our respective planes... what do I do?

It seems to me like the name of the game is getting behind the enemy... on their six, so to speak. My idea is to head off to the side, then turn to try to end up behind them. (Sometimes I think about trying to do this vertically -- a loop -- but I've not tried it yet.) I read somewhere I should not attempt shots with greater than 30 degrees Angle Off, but I've not yet managed to end up within 30 degrees of directly behind my target... or even within shooting distance (300m); I think the closest I've come to having a viable shot was 60 degrees off, 400m away, and that didn't last long. It's quite difficult to keep the enemy in my sights, or to stay on/get on their tail at all!

I think I may be ending up getting out-turned, but perhaps I should be able to out-turn them. I'm not sure what to do if they can out-turn me -- how do I end up behind 'em? Is it viable to attack from another direction, like above (but in front)? I know "boom 'n' zoom" tactics are viable, but I'm not really sure how.

Another problem I know I have is that I don't know how to control my speed at all; I always end up zooming by in a split second when I do get somewhat close (if they haven't somehow turned around and zoomed back by me). I can only think to slow down by switching from combat flaps to landing flaps (or by pointing the plane up...?); I've tried to get enemy planes to overshoot me, but no luck. What should I be doing with the throttle, anyway? I nearly always put it at about 95% and leave it at that (I don't mess with prop pitch yet, so I assume the RPMs are being kept at a healthy level and my engine is not overheating, heh). Perhaps I should be using the throttle...

Thanks in advance, from the bottom of my wanna-be-pilot's heart; I'm continuing to look around for guides, of course, and I will keep reading, but any and all advice is appreciated.

[Jumoschwanz]

I have some videos here of some tracks I have saved from the last ten years flying IL2, you can watch them and maybe pick up some ideas, and also see how the throttle and flaps are used at different times. Most all of them are from the pilots perspective and all are made while flying with nothing but a Microsoft Precision2 stick, all views are panned using only a hat-switch and buttons, to show that no fancy hardware or software is needed to have fun with the sim.

http://www.youtube.com/user/jumoschw...e=results_main

Besides getting ideas from books and others the only thing you can do is spend hours practicing and trying different things to see what works for you and getting to know what your favorite aircraft can and can not do.

Good luck.

[Haklangr]

Originally Posted by Jumoschwanz

I have some videos here of some tracks I have saved from the last ten years flying IL2, you can watch them and maybe pick up some ideas, and also see how the throttle and flaps are used at different times. Most all of them are from the pilots perspective and all are made while flying with nothing but a Microsoft Precision2 stick, all views are panned using only a hat-switch and buttons, to show that no fancy hardware or software is needed to have fun with the sim.

http://www.youtube.com/user/jumoschw...e=results_main

I just watched your newest video (I think); that was beautiful. That's what I imagined when I finally bought a joystick and this sim. Great channel; thanks. If you ever have the time I would very much enjoy a quick walk-through of one of your videos (e.g., "at this point I wanted to make a slow turn for reason x, so I did such-and-such with the radiator and flaps..."); no pressure, though, as I understand it'sa bit of trouble.

Besides getting ideas from books and others

Recommendations in this area (from anyone) are appreciated, definitely. I hear tell of maneuvers like "flying scissors" and others, but I have no idea what they are! I've got a PDF called In Pursuit that I've heard is good, though.

[panzer1b]

tactics are extremely hard to explian in a quick post

since you mentioned the bf109G i can give you a few tips on using it, as its my second most used plane after the fw190

for starters the G6 and later are not turn fighters, so unles you are dogfighting a very bad turning plane do not try to outturn

its a energy/vertical fighter, try to maintain altitude and speed and take shots at him when you can, never get slow in the G6


now the lagg3 as you said before was ur enemy, that will outturn you but is a bad climber as well as slow, so outrun it and outclimb it

as for speed control you really shouldnt be trying to slow down much especially against a more agile turn fighter like the lagg3, only do that if its a badly maneuvering plane

otherwise keep practicing and probably most importantly get good at aiming at high speed

[Haklangr]

Originally Posted by panzer1b

tactics are extremely hard to explian in a quick post

since you mentioned the bf109G i can give you a few tips on using it, as its my second most used plane after the fw190

for starters the G6 and later are not turn fighters, so unles you are dogfighting a very bad turning plane do not try to outturn

its a energy/vertical fighter, try to maintain altitude and speed and take shots at him when you can, never get slow in the G6


now the lagg3 as you said before was ur enemy, that will outturn you but is a bad climber as well as slow, so outrun it and outclimb it

as for speed control you really shouldnt be trying to slow down much especially against a more agile turn fighter like the lagg3, only do that if its a badly maneuvering plane

otherwise keep practicing and probably most importantly get good at aiming at high speed

Thanks! Glad to see a 109 pilot here to give me some tips. Okay, so as I understand it, the 109G-6 is a good "Boom and Zoom" fighter, and as you say I say I ought to be faster than the Lagg-3 and a better climber. However, I'm not quite sure how to use these advantages... how does one line up a shot, even if one is faster, if the enemy can always turn away?! Zoom at the sucker before it can get too far and hope you hit it with a quick burst as you pass by? 'Cause that's what I'm thinking of trying next, heh.

***

Update
managed to score my first kills. Still absolutely rubbish at shooting down anything except bombers, and at getting enemy fighters off my tail too, though.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by Haklangr

It seems to me like the name of the game is getting behind the enemy... on their six, so to speak. My idea is to head off to the side, then turn to try to end up behind them. (Sometimes I think about trying to do this vertically -- a loop -- but I've not tried it yet.) I read somewhere I should not attempt shots with greater than 30 degrees Angle Off, but I've not yet managed to end up within 30 degrees of directly behind my target... or even within shooting distance (300m); I think the closest I've come to having a viable shot was 60 degrees off, 400m away, and that didn't last long. It's quite difficult to keep the enemy in my sights, or to stay on/get on their tail at all!

Try to get closer. Most of the time shooting beyond 200m is a waste of ammo. And set your convergence accordingly. Angle off shots are more diffcult to make - but are more likley to hit something not well protected. One of the best in WW2 -Hartmann-always tried to set up high angle deflection shots against his foes because they are unpredictable.

Originally Posted by Haklangr

I think I may be ending up getting out-turned, but perhaps I should be able to out-turn them. I'm not sure what to do if they can out-turn me -- how do I end up behind 'em? Is it viable to attack from another direction, like above (but in front)? I know "boom 'n' zoom" tactics are viable, but I'm not really sure how.

Get into the fight with altitude advantage. Then attack from above. The enemy will evade - if not he should be an easy kill. If he evades -try to follow him for a short time only -then get back up to altitude. That way you use your altitude advantage throughout the fight -and usually avoid getting shot down. Getting kills is not easy that way - but you will learn to predict the enemy evasion patterns in time and then where to shoot at.

Get to know the enymy planes -fly them in QMB. Or look up their performance data in IL2Compare.

Originally Posted by Haklangr

Another problem I know I have is that I don't know how to control my speed at all; I always end up zooming by in a split second when I do get somewhat close (if they haven't somehow turned around and zoomed back by me). I can only think to slow down by switching from combat flaps to landing flaps (or by pointing the plane up...?); I've tried to get enemy planes to overshoot me, but no luck. What should I be doing with the throttle, anyway? I nearly always put it at about 95% and leave it at that (I don't mess with prop pitch yet, so I assume the RPMs are being kept at a healthy level and my engine is not overheating, heh). Perhaps I should be using the throttle...

Yes the throttle is essential for fighting - if you don't have one yet, consider buying a HOTAS. And with the Bf109 - its fine when you are always faster than the enemy - that way you will live. Prop pitch in a BF109 is automatic -so you needn't bother with that.

Originally Posted by Haklangr

Thanks in advance, from the bottom of my wanna-be-pilot's heart; I'm continuing to look around for guides, of course, and I will keep reading, but any and all advice is appreciated.

If you like the Bf109 - then consider using another variant -the G-6 is IMHO the weakest of the bunch. The F-4 is a pilots dream and the enemys nightmare. Faster than anything the enemy can throw at you - and outclimbs anything.

Don't get discouraged when you can't outfly the enemy like seen in vids - many people here play IL2 for years - and have thousands of virtual flying hours. IL2 takes time to learn, but it still is fun to play after years.

And last: Clouds are your friends. Use them. If you watch the artificial horizon to not get disoriented.

[panzer1b]

a few more tips i can give for gunnery at high speeds

when behind and moving in close keep sights below till at around 300m. then aim above where their top is

this is hard to explain but aim where you think they will pull up ( as most evasive maneuvers are a pull up)

then just as you notice them pulling up fire, u should be around 100-200m away so its enough room to compensate for the shot a bit

this requires alot of practice and u need to learn to anticipate what he will do but it bworks wonders in high speed interception

if he does not break before you cross 150m then just aim directly at him till he breaks off or preferably ignites and is roasted extra crispy


this tactic is temporarily countered by pushing down on the stick but if he does that easy eblly shott, all you loose is a few sec@onds



as for high angle shots llike from the side its just a matter of anticipation and shooting ahead of where he is

no real tricks to it, just lots of practice, harder if hes not flyin straight ahead


and as for the bf109 id reccomend the g2, it has most preformance of the early ones but turn radius and also has enough firepower to kill most

f4 and f2 with the 20mm field mod is next up, g6 and up are terrible at turn fighting and g6 or g6 late is bad at high altitude where the g2 will outrun outclimb ect

the k4 is noot bad but ive never really liked it too much as it forces me to use the 108 and has beyond crap turn radius

anyways this tactic is bigger needed for the fw190 as it cant keep a sustained turn with anything buut at high speed




but most of all practice, this works for me, but u might find a better tactic or a different one that works

and if you like the 30mm death ray then give at least twice the lead, very slow rounds that take a long time to reach the bandit

and try to fly the enemy plane against ai, itll help you determine its advantages or disadvantages, then exploit em like nothing else



also about how to exploit cliimbing and speed, just keep your nose up a bit and throttle at a reasonable 85-90% in climb to not overheat very fast

and lower throttle to 50-60ish in a steep dive or 70 if shallow

just dont exceed 700 ina dive as anything more rips u apart....and dont climb to rapidly or to shallow, rapid climb is mainly if you want to do a hammerhead, not too useful otherwise as u become slow and potentially get hit

also pick 2 or so planes to get good with, only fly the rest occasionally as its very hard to get good in every plane

although 109s are all similar so whether its a f2 or a k4 all that changes are top speed, climb rate, and turn rate, late ones more imp to stay fast, earlys u can outturn a few planes and most late war ones

[MaxGunz]

The air combat bible:
http://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat...fighter+combat

Used: $13.74

Got mine in 1998 for $35 new.

More than half is on missiles. You don't need to read those parts for IL2 but do read the preface as it tells how to take and use what is written.

Warning: that book reads like chewing through bricks. It is a technical book, has no nonsense or fluff.

[K_Freddie]

Try the Me109-G6/AS. It's a nimble little plane, and fast.
Using the 20mm instead of the 30mm cannon keeps it light, but don't shoot until your prop is chewing off their tails.

The ME109 has excellent handling characteristics from stall speed (especially here) to about 400kmh. above this the aerolons get heavy (slow).

[MaxGunz]

Slowing down: 1st to say is don't waste your speed. Best way to slow down is to rise up!

If you are attacking at greater speed than your target but not hugely greater then use yoyo and barrel to stay behind and take occasional sniping shots.

You will fly a longer path, your speed will not take you out in front if you do this properly and yes it takes practice. Best way is to set up a mission with just you and 1 friendly plane flying waypoints around the map at less than high speed. You don't have to shoot, just practice yoyo's and wide spirals behind your leader. Do not try to stay on his tail.

in practice you take the sniping shots as much to force the target to turn -hard- as to hit him. When he does, rise and follow from above (rising slows you down, rise to your better turning speed) then when he straightens out to regain speed you drop to snipe and go back to yoyos as necessary.
When the target slows enough he will not be able to turn well without losing alt. When he runs out of alt to lose, he will turn like a sick cow and be very easy to shoot.

During all this you have the higher speed and retain the ability to rise above. Don't blow it in hard turning, that is what you want him to do.

That is the energy fighter's game. The slower plane may try the angles fight where your main game is to sucker the energy fighter into hard turns to lose his speed advantage. If his plane is poor turning -relative to yours at lower speed- then when he slows down you have a chance to get him.

I would rather have a speed advantage than flat turn advantage especially on a server with multiple enemies.

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Probably the best thing you can do now is to find a good squad and join.