Help dogfighting (and moderating speed)

[Haklangr]

Thanks a bunch again, guys! I've been trying some more, rather obsessively, but unfortunately it's been rather discouraging. When I'm not relying on turning and rolling around, vs these P-39s, they fill me full of bullet holes if I don't get them on the first pass (and I usually don't). I pass, they turn damned quick, and I have a P-39 on my tail and I just can't get rid of it once it's there. I'm thinking maybe I'll get away if I have the right exit angle planned and have dived so attained a good speed, but keeping them in my sights on approach usually won't let me keep a good clip up. I might, therefore, keep trying to stick around and dance, since it worked once... unless it's just a terrible idea for Bf-109 vs P-39.

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

If you have to make one when you are the attacker then you probably didn't plan far enough ahead and aren't thinking because as the attacker you never -have- to turn hard and are probably being suckered.

Hmm. I usually have to add a fairly sharp turn near the end of my approaches, as they see me and try to get away. I've tried just breaking off in that case, but with these P-39s I can't seem to get a kill any way except sticking around and trying to be more maneuverable, as they often shoot me down as I leave if I don't get 'em on my first run.

Erich Hartmann the 109 Ace with 352 credited kills would plan his attacks to provide an off-angle behind the target exit every time. He did not stay around to mix it up. Go in, approach a point off one side of the target, make "the rude turn" into the enemy and fire then exit behind the target crossing his path and keep running whether he hit or not. It's insanely hard in limited-view sims, he'd be 50m off the target's left wingtip when he turned but I find that turning in from 150m-200m works well. Just don't take the time to aim, when to fire is a matter of timing, less than a second. You'll be so close that aiming is a waste. Make a short burst while pulling to get behind the target. In practice you'll ram many times before you get it right once. With some kind of head tracking (like TIR) it should be a little easier.
Hartmann always did that with much greater speed than the target and exited too fast to chase or turn 135+ deg in time to get a shot. Generally he achieved surprise and if he lost that on the way in he aborted the attack. His record speaks about his tactics and he survived the war.

Hartmann is definitely the one to imitate in the Bf-109... incredible. I'm trying to do this, as it seems to have been more than a little effective, but as I mention above I don't seem to be able to approach and exit at a high enough speed to get away from P-39s -- maybe I just have to work on not losing all my dive speed on approach, though. I also don't get nearly that close before making "the rude turn" (bit of Hartmann terminology there?) -- I gather Hartmann ended up flying almost alongside them before turning, whereas I often feel I must aim to intersect their path from a much greater distance, else risk losing them. This might be because I find it difficult to achieve the element of surprise, though, especially after my initial approach and I'm in the thick of it.

Originally Posted by majorfailure

Try adding an upward element to the turn - not exactly following the enemys path. Called a high yo-yo. Or try to turn not at all. Pull up somewhat, and then roll your plane to where you want to go, level out again - facing the direction you wanted to turn to but with less energy loss - because you used the roll axis to change your direction.

This has been very effective.

At an altitude below 5000m I's say that is the best match you can get - the P-39 is a superb plane in the hands of a good pilot.

Shit.

:p I'll try to lure 'em up, though. I tried once already, but I got oil (right?) all over my windscreen as some jerk riddled me with cannon rounds. Either that or he shot my eyes out. Seems my slow climbing spiral was lacking in either climb or spiral, heh.