Hardware, software and the future of flight combat sims.

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by addman

When you have stellar, super-gorgeous cockpits like CloD but basic wingman commands that doesn't function properly -and still doesn't- then you know they over-reached. Ambition should drive every development team but when it starts to conflict with budget and deadlines then you need to snap back to reality and sort out your priorities. As I mentioned before, some part of CloD are absolutely spectacular but the basic things that are missing and stuff they just threw together last minute just undermines the overall experience.

Game developers aren't charity workers, they're in it to make money and especially publishers. They look at R&D expenditure and then they look at potential revenue to make their decisions which games to develop. The games market is soooo much more diverse right now and people are playing games on their consoles, on their phones, on their tablets and on their PC's. Developers are far more spread out across the board and many are a one-man team creating 99 cent apps for iOS or Android and are making good money because of low cash-burn rates. The fight for resources to develop games are getting tighter, just the other day THQ (pretty large game developer/publisher) filed for bankruptcy and they have some pretty valuable IP's in their possession. All I'm trying to say is that we are going to have to face fact that times have changed and we have to make due with what we get. The SoW project was admirably ambitious but it became it's demise, whiners or no whiners.

What is 1 million copies x 50.- .....making money

Originally Posted by startrekmike

It is clear that you are so blinded by your loyalty to CloD that you refuse to even give anything else a chance, the new IL-2 is not going to be ROF reskinned for WWII, to even think that is pretty silly considering that they have made it clear that the engine is capable of doing more and that they are doing a lot of work to make sure it feels like a WWII sim.

You seem to think that the idea of this new IL-2 is somehow a personal insult against you and the CloD community and you refuse to accept that any sim might actually be better (in the case of barely touching DCS World and deciding it was inferior just because it is not exactly like CloD, even though it is clearly superior when it comes to systems modeling, flight physics and damage model).

Some random company could make the best sim in the world, a technical marvel and you would still say it sucks compared to CloD just because it is not CloD.

CloD is a great sim but it has some clear flaws that are never going to get fixed now, it's development ended with the last steam patch and perhaps it is time we accept that fact, continue enjoying the sim but also feel free to look forward to something new, something that might actually be good.

This pissing match between "the ROF crowd" and the "IL-2 crowd" is getting tiresome, perhaps it is time to just accept that things have changed that are outside our control (and possibly for the better, we will have to give them the benefit of the doubt) instead of just saying "if it ain't CloD, it ain't a sim!".

I don't even know why I bother reading these forums, I feel like I have to take a side (because I play both ROF and CLoD) and I don't want to.

Remember that BOS battle was largely a lot of ground pounding.

Originally Posted by kendo65

I really don't think the new venture is going to be the holy grail and I'm not ecstatic to be contemplating scaling back the ambition and dream of COD's vision. (though I'd given up on seeing a working, practical realisation of that vision some time ago. Maybe that's why COD's death hasn't affected me as much as it obviously has some others here. For me the COD dream died slowly and painfully 6-12 months ago)

But I think it's just too hard to say at the moment how far 1C/777 can push things in the next year to 18 months. Your characterisation that it will be ROF with WW2 aircraft is I think the most pessimistic reading possible of what the final result could be. Already in the last week there have been signs and hints that there could be fairly significant advances from the current ROF state of play with improvements to terrain, cockpits and even (possibly) DX11.

But, they seem to have made a decision right at the outset to dampen and underplay expectations - maybe a wise move given that it was partly the fall from 1C/Maddox Game's sky-high expectation to the reality of what COD was like at launch that created so much disappointment.

So, is it a very calculated case of under-promise and over-deliver from 777, or is it just the abandonment of vision and ambition for mediocrity and the art of the possible? I think it's really too early to tell, and I'm not writing any blank cheques for 777 concerning BOS. As more information becomes available and as they get a better idea of the rate of progress and how much they can do, then we will be able to judge.

Also, please remember that COD didn't cover itself in glory in its first year and a half. To hear some people you would think we were giving up a flawless and perfectly realised piece of software for a half-promise of mediocrity. COD had at least as many deep flaws and omissions to set alongside its successes, and ultimately it failed because it couldn't advance enough in the time since release to inspire the continued confidence of its investors.

I'm flying the release and having a blast...I work around a lot of the problems. I could be flying it for years to come

[startrekmike]

Originally Posted by SlipBall

What is 1 million copies x 50.- .....making money



Remember that BOS battle was largely a lot of ground pounding.




I'm flying the release and having a blast...I work around a lot of the problems. I could be flying it for years to come

I am aware that the battle of Stalingrad was a lot of ground pounding, I think it is still kinda silly to just assume that just because one has played ROF that one has all the knowledge available about the engines capabilities, it is like saying that you have read one book in a series so now you know how the whole series is going to go, it makes no sense.

I also enjoy CloD and I also work around it's problems, nobody is saying that BoS is going to come to your house and steal your copy of CloD, I just think that perhaps keeping a more open mind will help everyone.

Frankly, there is no need for us to argue about this, the sim is just being started and already some here seem to know exactly what will be produced and they have also already cast judgement on it.

We all know that even the hard core anti 777 guys are still going to buy BoS when it comes out, hell, they will probably even like it.

Who knows, it is too early to tell.

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by startrekmike

I am aware that the battle of Stalingrad was a lot of ground pounding, I think it is still kinda silly to just assume that just because one has played ROF that one has all the knowledge available about the engines capabilities, it is like saying that you have read one book in a series so now you know how the whole series is going to go, it makes no sense.

I also enjoy CloD and I also work around it's problems, nobody is saying that BoS is going to come to your house and steal your copy of CloD, I just think that perhaps keeping a more open mind will help everyone.

Frankly, there is no need for us to argue about this, the sim is just being started and already some here seem to know exactly what will be produced and they have also already cast judgement on it.

We all know that even the hard core anti 777 guys are still going to buy BoS when it comes out, hell, they will probably even like it.

Who knows, it is too early to tell.

You must have read me wrong, I am not at all against ROF. I'm just saying that ground pounding will require something to pound.

[startrekmike]

Originally Posted by SlipBall

You must have read me wrong, I am not at all against ROF. I'm just saying that ground pounding will require something to pound.

I bet that they are more than aware of that, again, we shall have to wait and see what their solution is.

Looking back, yeah, I read you wrong, I am just so used to blind ROF hatred on this board, I understand why it exists, I just don't think it needs to be so blind.

Anyway, sorry bout that, I stand corrected

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by startrekmike

We all know that even the hard core anti 777 guys are still going to buy BoS when it comes out, hell, they will probably even like it.

Who are these "hard core anti 777 guys of whom you speak"? Personally I think you are being too dramatic.

None of the comments expressed in this thread match the pure hatred or venom and the malicious vitriol that was directed at the developers of IL2-COD. It was as if there was a campaign trying to make them fail.

Eveyone on this form wants Jason to produce the BEST flight sim available. It's just that some people are expressing concern over parts of the project. What is wrong with that? The Best way for the BOS developers to alay those concern is to answer questions and show us some of their preliminary work that they have done.

[startrekmike]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

Who are these "hard core anti 777 guys of whom you speak"? Personally I think you are being too dramatic.

None of the comments expressed in this thread match the pure hatred or venom and the malicious vitriol that was directed at the developers of IL2-COD. It was as if there was a campaign trying to make them fail.

Eveyone on this form wants Jason to produce the BEST flight sim available. It's just that some people are expressing concern that they do not think he will succeed.

Look, I understand why some IL-2 fans might be concerned, I totally get that but I don't think you need to look very hard to see that some on this forum are flat out against anything that 777 does, I am not sure why and perhaps it is just a extension of the anger that they feel after being ditched by the higher ups at 1C and Ubisoft but that is not the ROF fanbase's fault.

Also, I have seen some of your posts, while they don't carry the venom that some of the others do, they do insinuate that ROF is not a sim and that is just silly, if you say that ROF is not a sim then you might as well say that CloD is not a sim either, clickable cockpits or not, both do a very good job at simulating the aircraft (I do agree that ROF does not simulate the war very well but it does a fantastic job with the aircraft, even you have to admit that).

I think this whole thing became clear to me when folks on this forum try to say that CloD even beats DCS titles in the level of simulation, that is absurd as the DCS sims are easily more detailed in terms of flight dynamics, systems modeling, damage model and weapon performance than any other sim on the market, I don't say this as a DCS fanboy, I say this as a flight sim fanboy, one only needs to spend a short time with DCS A-10C to see that it is really something special, sure, the land does not look amazing but that still does not stop it from being the best air/ground combat sim on the market.

Ugh, starting to ramble, gotta cut this short.

CloD is a good sim, if anyone tries to tell me it is not, I tell them that they are wrong but I also think it is wrong to assume that it is the best, it is not and it really should not be used as a example for future projects as it really has it's annoying issues that should never have been there in the first place.

When I want to fly a quick mission in CloD, I have to set up one of the pre-builts so that it can be opened in the editor, open it in the editor, alter the plane types, AI (for all the good it does), change the ammo belts to my customs and then I can click play.

With IL-2 1946 and ROF, I can pick my map, my plane, the enemy, if I want a airstart or a ground start (I loathe air starts) and even alter my loadout, no fuss, no muss. I think this is a good example of why CloD should not be held up so high that we fail to see it's flaws, it is a good sim but the new IL-2 would be wise to steer clear of it's mistakes.

I play both, I enjoy both, I hate this feeling that I get in this forum that I have to choose a side because I have already chosen both.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by startrekmike

Also, I have seen some of your posts, while they don't carry the venom that some of the others do, they do insinuate that ROF is not a sim and that is just silly, if you say that ROF is not a sim then you might as well say that CloD is not a sim either, clickable cockpits or not, both do a very good job at simulating the aircraft (I do agree that ROF does not simulate the war very well but it does a fantastic job with the aircraft, even you have to admit that).

Please post a link to "some of [my] posts" that insinuate that ROF is not a sim. I think a re-read may be in order.

If you are talking about the IL2-BOS site very few of my posts mention Rise of flight except as a point of reference. The Sim being discussed on that forum is Il2 Battle of Stalingrad is memory serves me right.

I have created a thread in the Free Topic area that allows people to discuss what they would like to see in a sim in the year 2014

I have created a thread on game play and kill distributions.

I have expressed concern over graphical issues and multiplayer performance issues.

I have asked direct questions about game play and server administration.

Over all I have tried to be positive, but also that we should not lower our expectations of what a future should be like and in all my posts I have attempted to maintain a positive and respectful demeanor.

Originally Posted by startrekmike

CloD is a good sim, if anyone tries to tell me it is not, I tell them that they are wrong but I also think it is wrong to assume that it is the best, it is not and it really should not be used as a example for future projects as it really has it's annoying issues that should never have been there in the first place.

When I want to fly a quick mission in CloD, I have to set up one of the pre-builts so that it can be opened in the editor, open it in the editor, alter the plane types, AI (for all the good it does), change the ammo belts to my customs and then I can click play.

With IL-2 1946 and ROF, I can pick my map, my plane, the enemy, if I want a airstart or a ground start (I loathe air starts) and even alter my loadout, no fuss, no muss. I think this is a good example of why CloD should not be held up so high that we fail to see it's flaws, it is a good sim but the new IL-2 would be wise to steer clear of it's mistakes.

I play both, I enjoy both, I hate this feeling that I get in this forum that I have to choose a side because I have already chosen both.

In response I will quote the words of Loft on the BoS site

Originally Posted by Loft

Endless arguing over difficult decisions we need to make only scares off new users. We don’t expect every user to like every design decision we make, but once you we have stated your opinion it is enough and will remain on the forum forever for us to see. No need to endlessly vocalize your displeasure, over time it has a detrimental effect on the community.”

If certain people had shown this amount of respect for the CoD developers things may have turned out much differently.

But all this is pritty much off topic in this thread.

[flyingblind]

To be honest this wasn't really meant to be a discussion on CloD or RoF alone. But hey, this is a forum thread so it goes where it goes. I was surmising whether or not the cost of writing code for games that take full advantage of the possibilities of a modern PC is now becoming more than the return on sales so games developement is reaching a ceiling.

The next generation of games consoles will likely be out end of next year and are thought to be as powerful as a top spec PC today and 8 times as powerful as current consoles so maybe this problem will apply to them too. If indeed you think such a problem exists.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Too true, most of the problem comes from using the resorces from modern Hardware efficiently. Problem is that that Moores law states that computing power doubles every 18 months but our expectations expand much more rapidly than that!

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by startrekmike

Look, I understand why some IL-2 fans might be concerned, I totally get that but I don't think you need to look very hard to see that some on this forum are flat out against anything that 777 does, I am not sure why and perhaps it is just a extension of the anger that they feel after being ditched by the higher ups at 1C and Ubisoft but that is not the ROF fanbase's fault.

Also, I have seen some of your posts, while they don't carry the venom that some of the others do, they do insinuate that ROF is not a sim and that is just silly, if you say that ROF is not a sim then you might as well say that CloD is not a sim either, clickable cockpits or not, both do a very good job at simulating the aircraft (I do agree that ROF does not simulate the war very well but it does a fantastic job with the aircraft, even you have to admit that).

no mikey, its not, RoF flight models are total crap in comparison to a sim like the old il2 or the current CoD. my 6 yo nephew could take off and land on his 1e try in RoF, and these were some of the trickiest and most temperamental aircraft to fly in real life. RoF uses canned and scripted flight models, not real time flight physics (flying around with a plane with no wings in RoF anyone ? or maybe just fly your little aircraft at full speed into the ground from 2000 m to see how "realistic" the end result looks). the funniest thing is that this can get only worse for BoS, because with their reskinning of RoF and adding in a new map they will encounter more of the RoF flight modeling limitations (as oleg predicted when he looked at RoF, and most of what he said about it turned out to be correct).



folks, i am away a few days and you all been fooled by a RoF plant

list "startrekmike"'s recent posts on this forum to get some idea of who and what he is, its like looking at a RoF advertising stream or infomercial, while he undermines and cuts down on CoD at every step he can

its common practice now with some game developers, they send their reps to various forums and websites to pretend they are normal users, and all the while they undermine the competitor and glorify their own product to increase sales and reputation

he's either jason, loft, or one of their stooges, but whatever he is he is not a normal CoD player who has come to exchange information and try and get the most out of the game

and typical for the RoF dood's to employ these underhanded and misleading tactics

mikey, go home, you just been rumbled