Spit/109 sea level speed comparisons in 1.08 beta patch

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

IMHO the real question is how much time to Spit has to shoot at you? Because if the Spit turns at around its peak sustained turn rate - at about 250 kph? 300 max? - its going to be a good deal slower than the 109; maybe slow enough to fall so behind that it will be out of realistic guns range? You cant shoot what is not in range, even if your nose points towards it..

Moreover if say both aircraft start at 400 + kph, the 109 maintains it while the Spit bleeds it off to get a snapshop, all the 109 has to do is to level out with a very significant E advantage, and if the pilot is good at Energy fight, its all cat-and-mouse from there on.

Generally it seems to me a good idea to keep the speed over 400 km/h in a 109. If the Spit tries to follow you in sustained 400 kph turn, or if he slows down to try to get you, he seems to be ... to have gotten into a bad position. Especially in a multi plane enviroment.. you can shoot what is slow, you cant shoot what is fast.

But aren't you missing the point completely......you are not describing a turning engagement, the whole issue here is that if the 109 tried to engage in a 'turning' fight with a Spit it 'will' loose, there has never been any disagreement that the 109 had better speed to maintain an overall tactical advantage, the 109 could choose when to engage but the Spitfire was more than capable of evading, if you felt frustrated by that as a 109 driver and decided to try for a propper knife-fight with a Spit you were likely to lose, the 109's best tactic was to run in quick when an opportunity presents itself and run away quicker once the job is done.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

IMHO the real question is how much time to Spit has to shoot at you?

Hi Kurfurst,

of course depending on the situation, I say just long enough to score a kill. That is my experience at least, I fly both 109s and Spitfires and pretty much anything in 1946. We're talking strictly horizontal fight as for pure sustained turn performance comparsion.

The question is also, for how long would you keep 400kph IAS in horizontal turn. I see where you're coming from though, you certainly have a point. Let's say the 109 wants to stay out of Spitfires gun range, in that case even 400kph turn would not be sufficient.

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Because if the Spit turns at around its peak sustained turn rate - at about 250 kph? 300 max? - its going to be a good deal slower than the 109; maybe slow enough to fall so behind that it will be out of realistic guns range? You cant shoot what is not in range, even if your nose points towards it..

Theoretically, that is absolutely possible. But it is also possible to cut the corner of the 109 and shoot at it alright at lead curve, then ease up the turn and repeat. All depends on the trajectory, the planes will obviously turn on different circles etc. If you make a deal that the 109 won't climb or scissor, just turn, you will win. Because the Spitfire is much better TnB fighter than Emil. Emil is decent turner, too, very maneuvrable and agile, but as for the sustained turn competition in actual dogfight, Spitfire has got better qualities.

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Moreover if say both aircraft start at 400 + kph, the 109 maintains it while the Spit bleeds it off to get a snapshop, all the 109 has to do is to level out with a very significant E advantage, and if the pilot is good at Energy fight, its all cat-and-mouse from there on.

Of course, but energy fight is not sustained turn fight.

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Generally it seems to me a good idea to keep the speed over 400 km/h in a 109.

Yes of course, that's a great idea in any aircraft But even having 400kph+, I would not enter turnfight with a Spitfire because that bloody thing turns better and would shoot at me. And I don't like that.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

But aren't you missing the point completely......you are not describing a turning engagement, the whole issue here is that if the 109 tried to engage in a 'turning' fight with a Spit it 'will' loose, there has never been any disagreement that the 109 had better speed to maintain an overall tactical advantage, the 109 could choose when to engage but the Spitfire was more than capable of evading, if you felt frustrated by that as a 109 driver and decided to try for a propper knife-fight with a Spit you were likely to lose, the 109's best tactic was to run in quick when an opportunity presents itself and run away quicker once the job is done.

I don't think I have missed anything, but it depends how you define a turn fight. And I am not meaning a 'propper knife-fight' at usually some low speed like 2-300 kph.

What I mean that if
- both the (+6) Spit and the 109E try a sustained turn contest
- near ground level (where the 109 has more power and is faster),
- and both are at or above about 400 kph and try to sustain that,

the Spit WILL loose that turn contest. The Hurricane even more so. As Jtd noted, its simply too hard to overcome some 30(+) km/h speed advantage, and the fact that parasitic drag will be dominant. The general advise is though (apart from don't turn with the Spit at low speeds) is that the faster the 109 turns, the better it is for its pilot.

The other comparisons (one plane flies sustained, the other unsustained, level outs and climbs etc.) I do not adress here. These tactics are essentially combinations of the best peformance envelope against the opponent's worst.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Yes, that is correct.

When they unban you, please stop cutting my quotes like that, I do not appreciate that. It seems you have very selective approach and you only choose to take the bits and bobs that suit you. Please stop arguing at least.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

I don't think I have missed anything, but it depends how you define a turn fight. And I am not meaning a 'propper knife-fight' at usually some low speed like 2-300 kph.

What I mean that if
- both the (+6) Spit and the 109E try a sustained turn contest
- near ground level (where the 109 has more power and is faster),
- and both are at or above about 400 kph and try to sustain that,

the Spit WILL loose that turn contest. The Hurricane even more so. As Jtd noted, its simply too hard to overcome some 30(+) km/h speed advantage, and the fact that parasitic drag will be dominant. The general advise is though (apart from don't turn with the Spit at low speeds) is that the faster the 109 turns, the better it is for its pilot.

The other comparisons (one plane flies sustained, the other unsustained, level outs and climbs etc.) I do not adress here. These tactics are essentially combinations of the best peformance envelope against the opponent's worst.

I agree in general except for the fact (major flow I would say) that the Emil will slow down rather fast in this sustained horizontal turn. Spitfire will win in RL situation described by you, because the pilot would obviously not try to sustain these 400kph, he will try to bear his guns on the 109 and will do so rather soon. No matter what you do in a 109, if you chose to remain horizontal, the only way of evading the Spitfire would be flying straight. And flying straight is not sustained turn. See?

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

there has never been any disagreement that the 109 had better speed to maintain an overall tactical advantage, the 109 could choose when to engage but the Spitfire was more than capable of evading, if you felt frustrated by that as a 109 driver and decided to try for a propper knife-fight with a Spit you were likely to lose, the 109's best tactic was to run in quick when an opportunity presents itself and run away quicker once the job is done.

I assume you are talking about current in game because the Spitfire is not a slower aeroplane, the 109 and Spitfire are very close throughout altitudes.

Whilst I understand Kurfursts point about the Spitfire @+6 the fact of the matter is that it could manage +12 for a significant time. If you are simply setting a scenario where the Spitfire can actually only manage +6 for whatever reason then we could chuck in all sorts, such as the 109 being out of cannon or leaking Glycol, same for the Spitfire. It's either ceteris paribus or a bit pointless to compare imo.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

the Spit WILL loose that turn contest.
.

How exactly? the Spit wil still be able to turn at a higher rate of turn but it won't maintain that speed, if it's behind the 109 it will keep it in it's sights and if its ahead the 109 won't get a bead and will just whizz past, you must realize the Spit will have a better 'rate' of turn than the 109 at all speeds.

[JtD]

With a fixed trim at a constant engine power setting, the trim speed of an aircraft is not going to remain constant over altitude. 400 IAS seems to be a pretty high cruising speed at 5 km for a 109E.

[MiG-3U]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Its a gut feeling of course - I wasn't there when it was drawn (thank God for that!). To me it just seems that, given that the original was drawn with pen AND was labeled, compared to the rough approximation visibile on the pencil drawn +12 and +16(?!) lines, the latter lines were probably made by some aircraft enthusiast well after the war. The lines/figures look more or less a reasonable guesswork, but I very much doubt it has anything to do with any test establishment.

Hm... using the same standars there is no real test data supporting 109E doing 500kmh at sea level. Only a calculation based on a prototype aircraft with a non-standard two speed supercharger and a power value which is higher than normal 601 power.

However, there is several test data sets supporting speeds around 470kmh for 1.3ata and supposedly faster 109F is doing just 495kmh at same power according to kenblat.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

How exactly?

Well let's start with the fact that it turns better already at 400 kph. Everything Spit does, the 109 can do better at these speeds.

the Spit wil still be able to turn at a higher rate of turn but it won't maintain that speed,

That's an unsustained turn. What you forget that in an unsustained turn, the 109 will still loose less speed than the Spit at high speeds, because the basics (=more excess thrust) did not change.

if it's behind the 109 it will keep it in it's sights and if its ahead the 109 won't get a bead and will just whizz past,

If it's behind the 109 and slows down to match the turn the 109 will get out of range quickly and the 109 will be at superior E state.. if the 109 is behind yes the 109 will just wizz past, and at a superior E state. Then cat-and-mouse begins...

you must realize the Spit will have a better 'rate' of turn than the 109 at all speeds.

Simply no. At high speeds it cannot mach the 109 sustained turn, and it will loose more speed in an unsustained turn if the 109 also goes to unsustained turn.

You see the turn rate advantage is only there if the 109 maintains a sustained turn and the Spit goes for an unsustained turn -> superior E for the 109 and you do not want to fight a 109 with

And unfortunately the Spit cannot beat the 109 at high speed in unsustained turns either. The 109 can match an unsustained turn at any time AND loose less speed in the process. If the pilot has his wits about him he will take advantage of this and use the superior E before speed gets really slow where it's Spitfire territory.

The slower Spitfire (at +6) cannot match the faster 109 (any plane) at high speed turns. At least, not for long.