SHOOTING at the OLYMPICS

[nearmiss]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Some say they don't believe the atrocities of WW2 that affected millions of people.

So, what if every bit of what you read or view isn't all true. There were so many murders and mistreatments of people during WW2 that are corroborated by competent witnesses to make freedom to own a gun extremely important. It is just common sense to own a gun, for your personal protection and defense of your property.

Eisenhower insisted german citizens in the proximity of the death camps be forced to walk through those camps after they were secured by the army. It was not about conviction on the part of those persons for their lack of caring or lack of action. It was to have millions of witnesses to the atrocities. There are so many witnesses the atrocities can not be refuted legitimately.

There are many people trying to deny the holocaust today, but that boat doesn't float. There are too many corroborations of the atrocities on film and photographs as well.

There are people that are totally irrational, angry and cannot be fixed to fit normalized society.

If you spend some time on Suicide hotlines, where pre-suicidal people call in one of the first things they teach you is to never say "go ahead and do it".

THe lesson to learn is this...when people discuss hatred like killing people,etc. THey should be taken as serious as someone sharing thoughts about committing suicide. They should at the very least be referred for observation and possible detainment to determine their resolves in such matters.

Stand in a pre-plane boarding security line and joke about bombs, make some kind of veiled threat or even discuss a possible security issue. People will report you, and the authorities will remand you to some form of custody to discuss your remarks. They will definitely detain you long enough for you to miss your flight, lesson learned.

[Wolf_Rider]

Yes... and in the case of some "gunmen" going berko in the campus, the indicators were there beforehand.

but, we can't just go and pick someone up and put them under "observation" because someone may think they're wierd... they usually go berko because they've been taunted and called wierd once too often

[nearmiss]

You can be taken into custody and held for up to 72 hours in the US on suspicion of a crime.

During those 72 hours the questioning can definitely be done by professional persons, i.e., psychiatrist or psychologist.

Yes, council may be all that is possible, but family members could be brought in to assist. Family intervention may not be enforceable, but I do believe most families would realize the problem after discussions with competent persons and be willing to help.

I believe the parents or family members of the recent mass murderers would have been very willing to help to protect the life of their family member and possible victims.

Family and psycho intervention might have abated the Columbine, and other mass murders.

When people have psych problems, they don't usually get well without medication, monitoring and intervention.

[Wolf_Rider]

yes, but if they're going to go and detain people because they may be seen as "addicted to video games", we're all up for 72 hour detention and psych analyisis
With the columbine massacre, they had their foibles.. but (and this is the important bit), they were both terribly taunted by their peers beforehand.

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

yes, but if they're going to go and detain people because they may be seen as "addicted to video games", we're all up for 72 hour detention and psych analyisis
With the columbine massacre, they had their foibles.. but (and this is the important bit), they were both terribly taunted by their peers beforehand.

I wasnt' thinking about video games. The word out on the recent mass murderers was they were sharing their thoughts on social networks. THey also shared with close confidants about their thoughts and plans for murder and mayhem. Evidently, they weren't believed. I sure would hate to be a party to such beforehand knowledge and later come to realize my lack of response helped destroy so many lives.

I've not heard about this Aurora colorado murderer, but for some reason these cowards always have to project their thoughts and plans to some degree beforehand.

Solutions for prevention are a complicated subject, but in order to save lives at least conscious efforts need to be made to try to find some way of getting to the problems and dealing with them before the shootings.

I have a high powered hunting rifle in my gun safe. It has NOT moved without me, nor has it been touched by anyone but me. I only have the combination to that safe. That gun hasn't gotten out of that safe and killed anyone, and hopefully I can say that until my dying day.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

I wasnt' thinking about video games.

I can you see now you weren't but that common misconception was given as an illustration of how a situation could play out incorrectly (OT but in line... a bit like the old 70's misconception of watching gladiator movies meant the viewer was gay)

Originally Posted by nearmiss

The word out on the recent mass murderers was they were sharing their thoughts on social networks. THey also shared with close confidants about their thoughts and plans for murder and mayhem. Evidently, they weren't believed. I sure would hate to be a party to such beforehand knowledge and later come to realize my lack of response helped destroy so many lives.

I'd sure hate to be in that experience as well, but the "evidently the ramblings weren't believed" scenario says what? That is also part of my mentioning the misconception of video games... at what point should something be believed?
Should anyone who makes even a simple threat be put in? (there was an occasion of that here not long ago)
Does it get used to do someone over? (like meaning the cranky old man up the street gets carted off?? or someone moved out of the way of a person's ambition in promotion?)

Originally Posted by nearmiss

I've not heard about this Aurora colorado murderer, but for some reason these cowards always have to project their thoughts and plans to some degree beforehand.

You (as in generally, not you personally) can't judge them as cowards though, not when it comes to being bullied, shunned and tormented... cowards usually work in packs, that's how they get their strength.

I'm really not sure about the batman killer though - the guy was apparently brilliant and into studies of the mind.
I saw a news report which featured his facial expressions during his first court hearing (and I'm not sure as to exactly what bender he went on, whether that be a genuine experiment gone wrong (without or involving some kind of substance) or something of a breakdown, but he was genuinely looking to be of "what the hell just happened?" Another report involved a notebook and supposed visits with the uni psychiatrist... did he have an issue of some kind, or just furthering his personal studies?

[EDIT] A report just in indicates the psychiatrist did attempt to warn others of concerns she had regarding Holmes... they were ignored

Originally Posted by nearmiss

Solutions for prevention are a complicated subject, but in order to save lives at least conscious efforts need to be made to try to find some way of getting to the problems and dealing with them before the shootings.

I totally agree.... perhaps school teachers need training in psychology ?

Originally Posted by nearmiss

I have a high powered hunting rifle in my gun safe. It has NOT moved without me, nor has it been touched by anyone but me. I only have the combination to that safe. That gun hasn't gotten out of that safe and killed anyone, and hopefully I can say that until my dying day.

There are never any problems with a responsible approach

[F19_Klunk]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

[COLOR=darkred][B][I]...It is just common sense to own a gun, for your personal protection and defense of your property.

After reading pretty much all the posts in here, all the arguments on both sides, what you wrote there mate pretty much sums everything up;

What seems like "common sense" for an individual, is derived from a person's innermost conviction and fundamental values, and that is the reason why - even though we lot sometimes seems to be very much alike - we are so different... surprisingly different.
For me and many others, the phrases "common sense" and "owning a gun" is a contradiction in terms.

My only input is; we quite clearly live in very different circumstances. We feel sorry for you guys having to live in a society where you can get your hands on leathal guns so easily, and you guys feel sorry for us not beeing able to "defend ourselves".

I really don't see any of us beeing able to convince "the other side" to change stance in this issue. I also know that there is no point for us Europeans trying to convince Americans (whith opposite opinion), as we are mostly beeing glanced upon as beeing "patronizing" when it comes to issues like this (health care included). IF there is to be a change in the US, it has to come from within.

cheers

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by F19_Klunk

After reading pretty much all the posts in here, all the arguments on both sides, what you wrote there mate pretty much sums everything up;

What seems like "common sense" for an individual, is derived from a person's innermost conviction and fundamental values, and that is the reason why - even though we lot sometimes seems to be very much alike - we are so different... surprisingly different.
For me and many others, the phrases "common sense" and "owning a gun" is a contradiction in terms.

My only input is; we quite clearly live in very different circumstances. We feel sorry for you guys having to live in a society where you can get your hands on leathal guns so easily, and you guys feel sorry for us not beeing able to "defend ourselves".

I really don't see any of us beeing able to convince "the other side" to change stance in this issue. I also know that there is no point for us Europeans trying to convince Americans, as we are mostly beeing glanced upon as beeing "patronizing" when it comes to issues like this. IF there is to be a change in the US, it has to come from within.

cheers

you see, it's broader than that, and guns are only an example, it's about individual freedom and possibility to choose over matters.

I don't want a government to touch my fundamental rights, I want a government to fix the problems of society that bring stuff like crime. The fact that a criminal can potentially get hold of a gun is only the end result of a government that can't prevent crime by applying the right social policies, and convince their population that the solution is to remove guns out of the equation to make our society safer. But it's not the case, people keep on dying, being attacked, raped, robbed, so something doesn't quite work. Crime is on the rise, and the situation is that law abiding citizen are left defenceless and not given the option to defend their loved ones in an appropriate manner.

[F19_Klunk]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Crime is on the rise, and the situation is that law abiding citizen are left defenceless and not given the option to defend their loved ones in an appropriate manner.

I am not sure about that.. maybe again it has to do where you live. According to BRÅ (Crime Prevention Council )*, every year about 90 people on the basis of lethal force in the form of murder, manslaughter and assault with a fatal outcome occurs in Sweden. The number has not changed in the past thirty years (make note that we have almost 1 million more inhabitants) . Neither has deadly violence committed by young people increased over time.
people getting killed are mostly criminals themselves.

Actually the only type of crime that seems to increase dramatically in Sweden are environmental crimes, nothing where a handgun can make a difference..

Edit... robbery has increased marginally the past few years, but it makes more sence (to me anyway) to wear a bicycle helmet than to carry a handgun... looking at risks and potentials to die.

*Swedish Authority which is working to reduce crime and increase security in society. They do this by generating the data and disseminate knowledge about crime, crime prevention and judicial responses to violations.


Statistics for NY:
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm
quite a dramatic change in comparison to the 90ies.. and it has nothing to do with people arming themselves

Stats for US
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm


PS. Oh dear.. Now I did what I said to myself I shouldn't do... get involved in the debate LOL. Point beeing anyway; the only way one can say crime is on the rise, one has to backup with stats, not with just a "feel"..
But again, as we agreed upon,, it all stems down to one's foundation of values.. where we seem to differ

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by F19_Klunk

I am not sure about that.. maybe again it has to do where you live. According to BRÅ (Crime Prevention Council http://www.bra.se)*, every year about 90 people on the basis of lethal force in the form of murder, manslaughter and assault with a fatal outcome occurs in Sweden. The number has not changed in the past thirty years (make note that we have almost 1 million more inhabitants) . Neither has deadly violence committed by young people increased over time.


*Swedish Authority which is working to reduce crime and increase security in society. They do this by generating the data and disseminate knowledge about crime, crime prevention and judicial responses to violations.

the main factor is the country and population's wealth: wealthier countries with a small economic inequality among classes have way less violent crimes than others. One of the main drivers of crime is poverty. Sweden is a happy and wealthy country, but others like the UK, who opened the doors to a lot of immigrants, brought in a social inequality that favoured crime.