The 'Great Debate' - Spitfire vs BF109

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

as cunning as a fox who's just been appointed Professor of Cunning at Oxford University.

Isnt it, "as cunning as fox thats just graduated in cunning at oxford univeristy and recently been apointed professor of cunning at said university"?

But you know, thats eyewitness statements...

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

Isnt it, "as cunning as fox thats just graduated in cunning at oxford univeristy and recently been apointed professor of cunning at said university"?

But you know, thats eyewitness statements...

No thats pure plagiarism....

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

No thats pure plagiarism....

Is it? How come were not discussing the OP?

[TomcatViP]

Regarding the stall and to add material to what I was describing when Bf109 and Supermarine Spitfire are in a turn fight, here come an extract of the doc available here : http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...1993092582.pdf

As you can see, Stall manoeuvring require a lot of power and degrade the ability to turn tight (Cl reduced).

Note :
- "Average" as it was hard to precisely control the amount of G you wished (see Crumpp thread)
- The violent stall buffet was characterized by an abrupt unloading from 5G to 1G

This is inherent to elliptial wings that, ideally (means theoretically), are stalling at once (no tip stalling like with a tapered planform or at the wing roots like a rectangular one).

As I hve said it many times, a turning fight with a SPit Vs 109 hve many similarities with that of a Mirage200 vs an F16 all proportion guarded. You might be interested to document yourself on the latter example to get an idea of what I am trying to describe.

EDIT: click here to see what I was writing http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...&postcount=107

[Fenrir]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

This is inherent to elliptial wings that, ideally (means theoretically), are stalling at once (no tip stalling like with a tapered planform or at the wing roots like a rectangular one).

This is where extra research is your friend Tomcat. Lookup 'washout' in terms of Spitfire wings. You could be surprised.

The Spitfire buffet that so many Spitfire pilots talked about was dure to this washout. The wing stalled at the root first, providing the rumbling feedback that so many Spitfire pilots have quoted as riding - the outer wing and the ailerons were still flying giving until the stalled airflow moved outwards if the turn was tightned or speed decreased or both.

So, wrong on that one I'm afraid.

[TomcatViP]

did you read the doc ?
1. graph is stated with "no washout"
2. the test describe a real flight test

I am not professoring Fenhir. I give explanation. Stall description -> theorized phenomena.

The goal is to make more players aware and immune to evangelist of one side or another.

But I cloud hve completed with more: look af the Re along the wing. You'll understand why ell wing are an illusion.

Or with the wing spar.

Geo Wash out is to prevent stall eh yeah and prevent aileron loss of ctrl. But in the case of that wing planform it's a draggy configuration. And drag and lift I was talking about little Jedy.

but buffet is due to the aero washout (the turbulence hitting the elevator) not the geometrical washout on the wing.

If you had take the time to read the doc linked in my post, you'd see this point. I gave plenty of info for the reader to make his own mind and to draw the same conclusion. You'd see, it's an honest behaviour far far away from a post that pick parts of the info and mud it with sarcasms.

Hve fun

[Fenrir]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

did you read the doc ?
1. graph is stated with "no washout"
2. the test describe a real flight test

I am not professoring Fenhir. I give explanation. Stall description -> theorized phenomena.

The goal is to make more players aware and immune to evangelist of one side or another.

But I cloud hve completed with more: look af the Re along the wing. You'll understand why ell wing are an illusion.

Or with the wing spar.

Geo Wash out is to prevent stall eh yeah and prevent aileron loss of ctrl. But in the case of that wing planform it's a draggy configuration. And drag and lift I was talking about little Jedy.

but buffet is due to the aero washout (the turbulence hitting the elevator) not the geometrical washout on the wing.

If you had take the time to read the doc linked in my post, you'd see this point. I gave plenty of info for the reader to make his own mind and to draw the same conclusion. You'd see, it's an honest behaviour far far away from a post that pick parts of the info and mud it with sarcasms.

Hve fun

Okay tomcat, my bad, you have my apologies. I only scan read the links and didn't get what you actually communicating. It was late and I was tired but still, should have made sure I understood your post before replying. Interesting stuff, now that I've read it properly.

Sorry again for the flippant response.

[gimpy117]

I dunno, those graphs before, are nice...but lets face it...the Graph for the Spit, the one that shows blazing speed is on 12 pound boost. And that would Cook your engine. So really unless you are in emergency go for broke mode you won't beat an ME-109. And heck In real life emergency power was for just that, not chasing an ME-109 when he's extending all kill crazy.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

I dunno, those graphs before, are nice...but lets face it...the Graph for the Spit, the one that shows blazing speed is on 12 pound boost. And that would Cook your engine. So really unless you are in emergency go for broke mode you won't beat an ME-109. And heck In real life emergency power was for just that, not chasing an ME-109 when he's extending all kill crazy.

Five minutes was more than sufficient for most combats and you could normally go for longer than that should the need arise. You would be very unlucky if everything went very quiet after 6 mins

[taildraggernut]

Originally Posted by Glider

Five minutes was more than sufficient for most combats and you could normally go for longer than that should the need arise. You would be very unlucky if everything went very quiet after 6 mins

Quite, 5 minutes was a guaranteed time, a failure was 'possible' after 5 minutes.