SoWC:BoB Multisquad Campaign Starting

[klem]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

There has been talk of replacing the SpitIa with the SpitII however Ive asked for the max speed and climb graphs of the - SpitIa & Spit IIa in game and the SpitIa in real life, however no one yet has cme up with the goods!? So I cannot simply act on a whim.

Can anyone provide this?

Farber, with respect I don't think you can be tied to historical marks of Spitfire because we do not have historical Spitfire MkI or MkII performance (on several levels). 1C have not published charts for RAF a/c performance since the Patch+mini patch but I can show you how the pre-patch CoD Spitfire Ia compared with RL in the attached. The Orange/yellow line (taken from 1Cs own chart, also attached) is the pre-patch Spitfire MkI versus the RL data for the Spitfire I and 109s. It was pathetically undermodelled.

All the latest patch has done is:-
"Spitfire Mk.I
Fixed the top speed dip above 18,000 ft."
see http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...49&postcount=1
So it's still pathetically undermodelled.

and they neutered the overmodelled (?) Spitfire MkII:
"Spitfire Mk.II
The aircraft's speed performance was too good at all altitudes, sometimes 60 mph better than the real thing."
(same link)

I have not done any tests on the MkII since the patch but we have been flying it exclusively since the patch and it is now unquestionably below the 109 performance so you have nothing to fear. My gut feeling is that it may now be something more like a Spitfire MkI or MkII running on 87 Octane fuel. The Spitfire MkII actually ran on 100 octane with the Merlin XII not 87 octane and would give a normal max boost of +9lbs and therefore more power than +6lbs but our MkII doesn't, it only gives ~6lbs. It seems to be modelled with 87 Octane fuel and so without the +9lbs boost. I believe its performance if it had used 87 Octane would have been little different to the MkI, the 100 octane simply allowed higher boost pressures to be used which is what gave the higher performance, not the simple fact that it was 100 octane. Similarly the maximum MkI performance with 100 Octane would have been similar to the MkII with 100 octane as they both allowed the same 12lbs short term boost. A lot is made of the difference between the Merlin III and the Merlin XII but in performance terms I don't think they were much different. The XII was structurally stronger and so was able to routinely use a higher normal max boost (9lbs with 100 octane) than the Merlin III (6.25lbs) which is why it could routinely outperformed the MkI.

If you want a meaningful combat scenario I think you should use the Spitfire MkIIa which we currently have in COD to represent Spitfire MkIa's running on 87 Octane. We know that in the BoB both front line Marks actually used 100 Octane and short term overboost (12lbs) giving short term low-medium altitude advantage but we can't get round that just now.

The COD Spitfire MkI is heavily porked. IMHO the CoD MkII seems to get closer to the real MkI than the CoD MkI but is still no match for a properly flown 109.

I hope no-one will drag up all the endless arguments about MkI/MkII, 87/100 octane, CoD/RL. The above is my belief and I won't argue any of those points in here.

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

There has been talk of replacing the SpitIa with the SpitII however Ive asked for the max speed and climb graphs of the - SpitIa & Spit IIa in game and the SpitIa in real life, however no one yet has cme up with the goods!? So I cannot simply act on a whim.

Can anyone provide this?

I gave you these Farber, but klem has supplied some more I see, nice, I've not seen these.

The Spit II is slower than the 109 too, until 19kft apparently, I had a few fights up there yesterday, 501/64 vs JG26 and it was good. The IIa wasn't faster than the Ia IRL anyway, it was just built for 100 octane without conversion (in a nutshell). Klem is correct, in game the IIa is more like an 87 octane Ia (IIa never ran on 87), only with a totally botched ROC and FTH (2lbs @ 16kft!!!)

Nobody flies the Rotol anymore online, it is almost useless. Unfortunately we have a situation where the RAF are castrated so badly with the patch that online numbers have fallen off the Cliffs of Dover. Even Hurricane squadrons like 56 and 501 no longer want to fly them. If you want a decent fight and more fun for all then just have only IIa's, if you want historical numbers then put in 'the truth', but doing that will not give you any historical accuracy at all. I'm sorry you are forced into the corner on it, we are all suffering though.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Hey guys, its about historical accuracy which is not just in a name Klem you are quite correct. The thing is that we in 5./JG27 dont fly spits, you can talk about different boosts and fuel and all that but all we know is Daimler Benz and kmh etc... So its hard for us to understand however a graph on speed and climb anyone can understand... Which is why I asked. Ive been looking for them myself this morning and found the same lack of material from 1c.

From what I have heard from red players on this forum, seen some graphs and experienced online, I'd agree with what you saying. We will replace the SpitIa with the II. - However if some patch comes out during the campaign we may have to readdress it for historical purposes just like we have here.

[Osprey]

The climb tests are an edit made by IvanK I think. The speed is from B6.

What are you trying to confirm exactly Farber? I'm assuming here that you don't want a turkey shoot because it's not fun for anybody and you are trying to establish that the Spitfire II isn't over-modeled? It isn't, it under-performs compared to the 109.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Everyone posted whilst I was looking for info Osprey... Read my above post again. What I was trying to establish was is the Spit II in clod more like the Spit Ia of RL...

[klem]

Some of you guys without a Squad have said you'd like to take part. Please go here:

http://sowc.forumotion.co.uk/t6-publ...ers-read-me#60

and put your names down. We can sort you out. We can't do it from here.

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

Everyone posted whilst I was looking for info Osprey... Read my above post again. What I was trying to establish was is the Spit II in clod more like the Spit Ia of RL...

Unfortunately not, but neither is the 109

They are however the best match we have. I'd even argue that the Spitfire Ia is a better match for the Hurricane IRL than the Hurricane Rotol is. ('#' line vs cyan line vs '*' line)

[IvanK]

Here is a real world comparison Spit I v Spit II both ROTOL Constant speed equipped. Hashed line the MKI Merlin III , continuous line the MKII Merlin XII. The MKXII Merlin supercharger ratio was a little different to the MKI. The MKII was also a little heavier than the MKI. The MKI values are running +6.25Lbs Boost and the MKII running +9Lbs Boost. As can be seen in both Speed and climb there is not an awful lot in it.

Sadly these values are not currently reflected in reflected in game.

Time to Height:


Speeds:

[5./JG27.Farber]

Thanks IvanK.

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

Hey guys, its about historical accuracy which is not just in a name Klem you are quite correct. The thing is that we in 5./JG27 dont fly spits, you can talk about different boosts and fuel and all that but all we know is Daimler Benz and kmh etc... So its hard for us to understand however a graph on speed and climb anyone can understand... Which is why I asked. Ive been looking for them myself this morning and found the same lack of material from 1c.

From what I have heard from red players on this forum, seen some graphs and experienced online, I'd agree with what you saying. We will replace the SpitIa with the II. - However if some patch comes out during the campaign we may have to readdress it for historical purposes just like we have here.

^^

[Sven]

As I suggested earlier, it will be best to forget about the SpitIa, and replace it with the SpitII completely.
SpitII has got the high altitude advantages and turns very quickly, the 109 climbs better and is faster up until 6k,
but has become more prone to spins and stalling, leading edge slats still not popping out at correct speed.

Reds will have their hands full on destroying bombers, presumably with their slower Hurricanes.
So they will need all the help they can get. I am for keeping the Hurricane/Spit ratio, to at least play a Battle of Britain scenario.