Friday Update, January 27, 2012

[VO101_Tom]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

bongo, when I read that it takes a year or more to develop one plane, I just can't think of Maddox Games as an efficient team, sorry.

Again, I'm not questioning the skills of the people involved, I'm wondering if you realise that once you take out of the equation all the things that might affect such a slow progress, the only two options left are improper resource managing and still working on an unstable game coding.

At first read, the "one year work-hour" seems a lot for me too, but do not forget that the aircraft making not only for modeling. It should also be programmed to operate, which I think is much more difficult task. Each (e-a-c-h!) on-board system to understand and programming it's intact and damaged functioning. If they interact, its more complicated. This is a huge job. Especially the bomber aircrafts. I do not know the ratios, but be sure that the modeling in less time..

I agree with that SNAFU and Krupi, compared to the ROF the 3D complexity, and the CEM far better in clod (It is also true that there are flaws, no question). But IMHO the ROF CEM, FM, DM and graphic engine somewhere between the Il-2UP and Clod (yes, i had that games too)...

[bongodriver]

people can build a plastic model in an hour, but to do a nice job of it will take considerably longer, same goes for 3d modelling.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by VO101_Tom

At first read, the "one year work-hour" seems a lot for me too, but do not forget that the aircraft making not only for modeling. It should also be programmed to operate, which I think is much more difficult task. Each (e-a-c-h!) on-board system to understand and programming it's intact and damaged functioning. If they interact, its more complicated. This is a huge job. Especially the bomber aircrafts. I do not know the ratios, but be sure that the modeling in less time..

I agree with that SNAFU and Krupi, compared to the ROF the 3D complexity, and the CEM far better in clod (It is also true that there are flaws, no question). But IMHO the ROF CEM, FM, DM and graphic engine somewhere between the Il-2UP and Clod (yes, i had that games too)...

it just doesn't add up. Look, I am no expert in the creation of 3d models or FMs, but from what I've learned after all these years, I would structure the development process in this way:

phase 1: 1 team (1 or 2 3d artists and a skinner) for 3d model production (2 if flyable)
phase 2: 1 team (2 coders) for implementation into model

Phase 1:
1) you choose the plane to implement. 1 week
2) you gather material on it according to the agreed standards: manuals, pictures, blueprints, translations (we're not in the '90s, there's a HUGE community out there with LOADS of information readily available) 2 to 3 weeks.
(Research work can be done by everybody according to availability and collated in a shared folder subdivided into sections)
3) in the meantime 3d model design starts:

3d internal and external body, LODs and DM. 4 weeks for a single engine/6 weeks for a multi-engine.

While this is going on, the skin artist works on the texturing in liaison with the 3d modellers. ongoing with 3d model.

3d model is completed, checked for bugs (possibly by another team) and passed to Phase 2. 1 week

Phase 2:

creation of FMs and DMs (which can happen whilst the other team is working on the 3d model) and implementation into game engine. 2 months

Testing of 3d model and FM. Note that the FM can be initially tested on a 3d mock-up to optimise times. 1 to 2 months

Beta testing 1 week

Final fixes 2 weeks

Now again pardon my lack of competence, but 6 months seem more than enough for the creation of one plane, let's not forget these guys are not doing it in their spare time, but they're steadily working on it (often on weekends apparently!) provided work is happening according to a tidy schedule without interruptions or reassignments to other duties.

[Buster_Dee]

I have an older PC (E8500 dually with GTX480 and 8G RAM). I have and like both titles (CLOD and ROF). I'll admit that I'm an eye-candy junky, and both are beautiful to me. The thing that catches my eye is that CLOD is closer to marrying the ground world and air world. I know it's a combat flight sim, but sometimes I am just stunned to think this, even if not overtly intended by the developers, is becoming reality. I won't preach because I lack the technical experience (just a self-taught modeler), but as you gain altitude, polys go through the roof (even with mitigation of lower LODs). That's not something FPSs have to deal with quite so drastically. When they are close to "breaking" your computer, they place a mountain or other obstruction in your way, then only load the next part of the map when you get there. In fairness, and this of course might be specific to my hardware (or lack of computer maintenance skills), CLOD's cities are much larger that ROFs, so the fact that CLOD runs more smoothly than ROF on my syatem suggests to me that some breakthroughs really have occured in CLOD. I realize the current absence of dynamic weather might be the only reason CLOD runs better for me. Still, there is a difference in scope w/regards to gound objects that suggests more has been "accomplished" than might seem on the surface.

[JG52Krupi]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

it just doesn't add up. Look, I am no expert in the creation of 3d models or FMs, but from what I've learned after all these years, I would structure the development process in this way:

phase 1: 1 team (1 or 2 3d artists and a skinner) for 3d model production (2 if flyable)
phase 2: 1 team (2 coders) for implementation into model

Phase 1:
1) you choose the plane to implement. 1 week
2) you gather material on it according to the agreed standards: manuals, pictures, blueprints, translations (we're not in the '90s, there's a HUGE community out there with LOADS of information readily available) 2 to 3 weeks.
(Research work can be done by everybody according to availability and collated in a shared folder subdivided into sections)
3) in the meantime 3d model design starts:

3d internal and external body, LODs and DM. 4 weeks for a single engine/6 weeks for a multi-engine.

While this is going on, the skin artist works on the texturing in liaison with the 3d modellers. ongoing with 3d model.

3d model is completed, checked for bugs (possibly by another team) and passed to Phase 2. 1 week

Phase 2:

creation of FMs and DMs (which can happen whilst the other team is working on the 3d model) and implementation into game engine. 2 months

Testing of 3d model and FM. Note that the FM can be initially tested on a 3d mock-up to optimise times. 1 to 2 months

Beta testing 1 week

Final fixes 2 weeks

Now again pardon my lack of competence, but 6 months seem more than enough for the creation of one plane, let's not forget these guys are not doing it in their spare time, but they're steadily working on it (often on weekends apparently!) provided work is happening according to a tidy schedule without interruptions or reassignments to other duties.

When you admit that, is there any need to read the rest?

I know a bit about modelling and have my opinion, but when it comes to FM's other than an aircraft speed I stay away... I don't know about an aircrafts true performance and so avoid the subject.. too many variables. I know about modelling and your underestimating the amount of work and research that has gone and has to go into the models!

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by JG52Krupi

When you admit that is there any need to read the rest?

well, that was just my professional advice, project managing and solution packages is what I do for a living, but I'm sure that your constructive posts attacking me at any given chance do us more good than harm, carry on.

[JG52Krupi]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

well, that was just my professional advice, project managing and solution packages is what I do for a living, but I'm sure that your constructive posts attacking me at any given chance do us more good than harm, carry on.

Okay, I apologize for "attacking" you earlier now you can apologize for the generalizing "attack" that us brits think that we won the war at BOB

I am not singling you out, you just happen to be one the few that simply are unaware of the level of detail and work that has gone into the models.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by JG52Krupi

I know a bit about modelling and have my opinion, but when it comes to FM's other than an aircraft speed I stay away... I don't know about an aircrafts true performance and so avoid the subject.. too many variables. I know about modelling and your underestimating the amount of work and research that has gone and has to go into the models!

am I? You obviously never worked for a serious company.

The time estimate I'm giving there is not how much it takes them, but how much it should. If they can't keep up with such numbers, then it's either a case of hiring more people or sacking who you have to substitute them with someone more efficient. This sim thing might be a hobby to you, but to them it's a job.

You can't change your organic? Well either you change your work routines or simply change target. It's like having a pots and pans factory going from making pots and pans (IL-2 Sturmovik) to producing an aeroplane (Cliffs of Dover): either you change your standards, adapt your line of management, hire consultants and reassess personnel, or it's gonna take you forever and you might never deliver one complete product.

Sometimes I really do wonder on what planet some of you guys live...

[JG52Uther]

Bye Gravy AKA Tree_UK AKA Crane

[J.Reb]

Hi Uther,

Sorry to trouble you with this, but I am tired of the veiled insults of Bewolf and bongodriver, I see them as unnecessary and unfounded. I would like to request

1. That you investigate me, any aliases, any posts of mine, and anything else you consider relevant to full disclosure of my standing as a good member. I shall assist in any way I can.

2. That assuming I get a clean bill of health, you will warn Bewolf and bongodriver that if they continue with the harrassment they are banned without further discussion.

Thanks,
J.Reb