The Crystal Ball

[Ataros]

Originally Posted by furbs

Well i see it differently...in fact there is such a huge difference between CLOD and its developers and ROF and jason.

Maybe you are right and CloD team is not as good as RoF team. This does not change Jason's point that constant negativity of some part of community is harmful to a project.

Originally Posted by furbs

Because they have always been up front and honest about the games problems and have ALWAYS posted info, updates and blogs telling us what they are working on, a rough idea when the next patch will be out and if they are slipping they tell you why..they have always had a road map and a long term plan.

If they say they going to do something...THEY DO IT.

But most of all they FIX things and they stay fixed.

Each patch that is released has made progress and improved the sim.

ROF works.

Even this perfect team which you describe could hardly handle the damage caused by the malcontents over recent 2+ years according to Jason. All this did not help them.

If you think the CloD team is not this good why would you want to make even more damage to it?

The team needs us to remind them about key issues which they can forget (like COOP one) because they may be overwhelmed with the challenges they are facing from time to time. But I am sure that this should be done in a rational business-like manner to be heard and to be of any use. Negative emotions cause only negative reaction as we can see even in Jason's posts.

Let's agree with you that CloD devs are not as good as RoF devs that you try to prove in your post. OK. Does it make you happy? Would it inspire anyone here to make fixes quicker, to work extra hours, to skip vacations to get results quicker?

PS. 777 are open for discussion because they are the publisher and Jason is the Biggest Boss of the publisher. For MG publishers are 1C in Russia and UBI in other countries. Luthier is not the Big Boss of the publisher and has non-disclosure agreements with both of them. No one would benefit if he breaks one and gets fired.

He may also think that it is UBI responsibility to answer your questions because UBI's PR people are paid for this. It case of 777 Jason is paid for this and community liaison is a part of his job-description unlike Luthier's one. You may not like it and seek revenge on these forums but this is how business is done. Marketing and communication budgets are spent by publishers not by developers. If you are angry talk to UBI because they are your publisher, you paid them and they got your money. If you want to support the developer you can do it on this forum (as it belongs to developer, not to UBI).

[furbs]

Il take all that on board Ataros and have a think.

Just my opinion...

If before release Luthier had said "look CLOD isnt ready and its going to take at least a year to get it to a standard we all want...at the moment it has many problems please help us beta test it and improve it...
here is rough year road map of what we are going to do..."

Then had they stuck to it and made progress you would have 99% less moaning as you see it.

Where is the progress Ataros? i dont care it it takes a long time but i want to see clear progress and the core features fixed.

Does anyone really believe a flight sim development team with 12 years experience in ww2 air combat needs the community to help fix the AI?
Its just padding, smoke and mirrors

Come on, if the guy whos paid to make the AI doesnt know...then they have the wrong guy.


Progress and fixes is what will fix the sim and this community...nothing else.

[Ataros]

Originally Posted by furbs

If before release Luthier had said "look CLOD isnt ready and its going to take at least a year to get it to a standard we all want...at the moment it has many problems please help us beta test it and improve it...
here is rough year road map of what we are going to do..."

Then had they stuck to it and made progress you would have 99% less moaning as you see it.

I agree. I think he could not do it because of NDA with UBI and/or 1C. Oleg even had to participate in the launch event in Moscow because of his contract obligations. I do not think they were allowed to talk about what happened. Luthier mentioned on sukhoi in March something like please do not ask me questions (about release issues) answering which would get me fired next morning. Luthier is an aviation enthusiast but he has to make money for the publishers. It is even more complicated because MG is now part of Softclub which is a part of 1C which has contract obligations to UBI. Too many bosses above luthier. May be not 100% correct, just my impression. Softclub merger happened in 2009 IIRC due to economic crisis. Then anti-crisis management took command and many employees of the team left. After the launch Oleg wrote on his Youtube channel that he is not sure if the team would be allowed to finish the product. Remember how happy luthier was bringing here the news that the project will be continued?

Regarding roadmap I think luthier mentioned some in spring and summer but then they did not got through it. Maybe because new people have to decipher someone else's code which can be a nightmare. Maybe there are other reasons. They can not tell us because of NDA with UBI and 1C/Softclub bosses, especially on the official forums.

Why all the above happened? Oleg as a man took responsibility for 2 major reasons: 1) did not insist on making CloD using old IL-2 engine and believed some team members that the new engine can be done in shorter time, 2) attempted to meet all user requests, wishes and dreams as it was in Il-2 which was not possible in the new engine because of its complexity (much more people had to be hired which did not happen due to many reasons - crisis and other) http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthrea...=1#post1683314

Originally Posted by furbs

Where is the progress Ataros? i dont care it it takes a long time but i want to see clear progress and the core features fixed.

Does anyone really believe a flight sim development team with 12 years experience in ww2 air combat needs the community to help fix the AI?
Its just padding, smoke and mirrors

Come on, if the guy whos paid to make the AI doesnt know...then they have the wrong guy.

The AI guy was changed within the recent year IIRC.
I can see that the team is in trouble and they can not deliver results as quickly as I want (and as luthier wants). I understand also that they can not be as sincere and open as Jason is before all of 3 their Big Bosses approve in writing what they can sincerely say.

The question is if we want to give them our hand of help or we seek revenge and want them to burn together with this project? I posted one very negative reply regarding COOPs in the last "Q&A" thread because I knew luthier would probably see it and provided links to facts and bugreports. But if I start repeating it every day this will not be constructive any more because 1) they will stop listening to this negative noise, 2) this would discourage the devs, 3) this will give wrong impression to newcomers that there is nothing good in the game (because of the same negative noise).

I am sure that what Jason said about 777 can be applied to MG issues. Development may stop any minute if we do not support the devs or Luthier may get too disappointed with forum reaction and move to the USA to his family where he can make more money probably too. Then someone of 1C Big Bosses would have to finish the series making it an arcade free-to-play fest.

Let's get as constructive as we can. This is the only way out.
At least we have a new engine, not a 10-year old Il-2 one (as we could) and the team was allowed to continue development yet. Gods were on our side so far.

Originally Posted by furbs

Progress and fixes is what will fix the sim and this community...nothing else.

I think luthier would agree with you because his bosses remind him about this every day.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by furbs

Il take all that on board Ataros and have a think.

Just my opinion...

If before release Luthier had said "look CLOD isnt ready and its going to take at least a year to get it to a standard we all want...at the moment it has many problems please help us beta test it and improve it...
here is rough year road map of what we are going to do..."

Then had they stuck to it and made progress you would have 99% less moaning as you see it.

Where is the progress Ataros? i dont care it it takes a long time but i want to see clear progress and the core features fixed.

Does anyone really believe a flight sim development team with 12 years experience in ww2 air combat needs the community to help fix the AI?
Its just padding, smoke and mirrors

Come on, if the guy whos paid to make the AI doesnt know...then they have the wrong guy.


Progress and fixes is what will fix the sim and this community...nothing else.

And yet Luthier gives a clear road map about what they're trying to fix/not fix at the current moment and you're the first to chime in about something not immediately relevent to the upadate like Anistropic Filtering. You expect us to believe that you wouldn't complain about being beta testers for an incomplete project had they been forth coming?

[furbs]

Originally Posted by Robert

And yet Luthier gives a clear road map about what they're trying to fix/not fix at the current moment and you're the first to chime in about something not immediately relevent to the upadate like Anistropic Filtering. You expect us to believe that you wouldn't complain about being beta testers for an incomplete project had they been forth coming?

does this road map say when the FM, DM, CEM, AI, crashes and sound will be fixed?

How much so far on that road map has been fixed?

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by furbs

does this road map say when the FM, DM, CEM, AI, crashes and sound will be fixed?

How much so far on that road map has been fixed?

Fixed?.....no, nothings ever fixed with games, improved?......yes by comparisson to release, when the next patch is released we will see more improvement, I don't think you will ever find anyone that will give you a fixed date on when a patch will be done for any game.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Fixed?.....no, nothings ever fixed with games, improved?......yes by comparisson to release, when the next patch is released we will see more improvement, I don't think you will ever find anyone that will give you a fixed date on when a patch will be done for any game.

Sad part of all this even if 1C could 'fix' <insert your whine here> most wouldn't even realize it..

For example.. take DM's..

If you want to see something REAL FUNNY ask the next person that makes the claim that the DM is 'broken' to explain just what it is about the DM that 'consider' to be broken..

Brace yourself first!

Because if they even bother to 'try' and explain it, as opposed to attacking you personally for asking them to explain it, you will be presented with a 'reply' heavy/full of 'opinion' and light/empty of 'facts'..

Why?

Well because the DM is one of those things for which there is no 'right' answer!

Thus each flight sim makers does what they consider (read opinion) to be correct.

Which means it comes down to one opinion vs. another, thus no mater what 1C does to the DM it will be viewed by some as 'fixed' and viewed by others as 'broken'.

Think that is bad? Well on an even sadder note, Take things like FMs where there actually is a right answer, even in those cases you will find some that will insert their 'opinion' as to why the 'real world data' that 1C used to 'simulate' the plane is wrong.

Knowing that, is the real reason 'why' this (nay any) sim will never be completely 'fixed' because.. Because most people base 'fixed' on thier opinions.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by furbs

Ok lets say when will the features work as intended?

When it's done.....at some point in the future........when the process of fixing the code has been accomplished..........when the devs are satisfied with the results

[Robert]

Originally Posted by furbs

does this road map say when the FM, DM, CEM, AI, crashes and sound will be fixed?

How much so far on that road map has been fixed?

I rest my case. You're looking at the wrong map. You also avoided my comment about whining regarding what's not included in an update. You or I my not like the road map or progress of the sim, but if the map points to one place (nevermind how small the distance is) it is a plan. Asking why we're not farther along matters not one bit.



Don't get me totally wrong, furbs. There are those on the other side of the fence who are just as vehement as you are and don't add significantly to the overall forum atmosphere. We all know the game's not perfect....

I chalk it up to being disappointed after a long protracted build of CoD. I understand that. But there has to be a point where folks realize that kvetching or over abundant praise helps no one.

I think the moderators are trying to reach that medium. Unfortunately it has come to moderation of posts and topics... including banning of members.

[furbs]

Originally Posted by Robert

I rest my case. You're looking at the wrong map. You also avoided my comment about whining regarding what's not included in an update. You or I my not like the road map or progress of the sim, but if the map points to one place (nevermind how small the distance is) it is a plan. Asking why we're not farther along matters not one bit.



Don't get me totally wrong, furbs. There are those on the other side of the fence who are just as vehement as you are and don't add significantly to the overall forum atmosphere. We all know the game's not perfect....

I chalk it up to being disappointed after a long protracted build of CoD. I understand that. But there has to be a point where folks realize that kvetching or over abundant praise helps no one.

I think the moderators are trying to reach that medium. Unfortunately it has come to moderation of posts and topics... including banning of members.

Yep agreed robtek, just as the "nothing wrong with the sim and your not allowed to say anything bad about it" crowd wind me and others up. i dont ask people not to post how much they enjoy it and are happy with it.

about the FSAA, how many times have i and other people asked? all i want is a straight answer.

i dont mind if you or anyone else dont believe me robtek but my earlier post IS how i feel.

ive spent 1500 quid on a PC on the stories we was told about CLOD and how it would be.



All i see is smoke and mirrors, patch padding, no fixes and a sim that has failed so far.
I hope it gets fixed, i hope CLOD one day represents the battle of its name and not "air quake lone wolf engagement over the coast"

Im going to stop the tit for tat posting but im not going to stop posting my opinion because i hope Luthier reads these forums, though i doubt that too.