Dogfighting -does 4.11-4.12 patch address this?

[Pugo3]

While I'm on the subjsect of aircraft performance...

I've read mostly positive reviews of the 4.11 - 4.12 patches regarding the improvements to AI characteristics. All good, I look forward to installing these patches, thanks to the good people and their work on our behalf. However, have the following issues been addressed?

1) Previously, if the AI aircraft's performance in Quick mission is greater that yours, it climbs away to begin a series of endless 'jousting' head on passes/bounces. No dogfighting ever, just jousting - endless jousting. Has anyone else ever been able to close in dogfight a P-51 with a Me 109, Fw 190?

It actually did happen, no, really it did. Honest to God, it really did happen occasionally.

I can only do so using another simm. Never mind this is not historical in the main, that the vast majority of encounter were close in dogfighting. The opportunity to see how one aircraft would compare in a dogfight with another is N/A - my chief complaint with Il-2 over the years. I know many love jousting and bouncing, but would it hurt to at least somehow be able just once to acutally dogfight another aircraft? Just once?

2) If one chooses to dogfifght with multiple AI aircraft, for some unknown reason the AI aircraft become rocket powered, absolutely boosted performance. I actually most time enjoy this as it ads challenge, but at the same time I'm aware that this is an inaccuracy, and I would like to see how I would fare against multiple aircraft with realistic flight characteristics maintained even with increased number of advesaries.

Love Il-2, many thanks to all who created it and are working to improve the product. Just please accept as recommendations to improve the brand.

[Fenrir]

Originally Posted by Pugo3

While I'm on the subjsect of aircraft performance...

I've read mostly positive reviews of the 4.11 - 4.12 patches regarding the improvements to AI characteristics. All good, I look forward to installing these patches, thanks to the good people and their work on our behalf. However, have the following issues been addressed?

1) Previously, if the AI aircraft's performance in Quick mission is greater that yours, it climbs away to begin a series of endless 'jousting' head on passes/bounces. No dogfighting ever, just jousting - endless jousting. Has anyone else ever been able to close in dogfight a P-51 with a Me 109, Fw 190?

It actually did happen, no, really it did. Honest to God, it really did happen occasionally.

I can only do so using another simm. Never mind this is not historical in the main, that the vast majority of encounter were close in dogfighting. The opportunity to see how one aircraft would compare in a dogfight with another is N/A - my chief complaint with Il-2 over the years. I know many love jousting and bouncing, but would it hurt to at least somehow be able just once to acutally dogfight another aircraft? Just once?

2) If one chooses to dogfifght with multiple AI aircraft, for some unknown reason the AI aircraft become rocket powered, absolutely boosted performance. I actually most time enjoy this as it ads challenge, but at the same time I'm aware that this is an inaccuracy, and I would like to see how I would fare against multiple aircraft with realistic flight characteristics maintained even with increased number of advesaries.

Love Il-2, many thanks to all who created it and are working to improve the product. Just please accept as recommendations to improve the brand.

1) So, let me understand you here; you buy a game that attempts to provide a realistic virtual experience of WW2 air combat and are complaining that it's too realistic?

Errrrr.... sorry, my cerebral logic fuse just tripped. Try again later.


2) Boosted performance? I have not detected anything of that nature. Sure the AI can calculate to the last degree centigrade when they overheat and trim perfectly, so they have a marginal advantage over a breather, but I've never seen the rocket ship behavior you describe, plus you have an innate ability to abstract. Believe me the advantage is with you.

I suspect your self-confessed love of dogfighting is causing you to blow what energy you have in a series of heavy handed yank & bank manoeuvres as you target fixate and desperately try and get a guns solution on one e/a. Suddenly you find yourself low, slow and out of talent as the AI who have kept height and speed - and therefore initiative - come in and force you lower and slower till you are inevitably blown out of the sky or in a panicky avoidance manoeuvre misjudge or over control and put your self in the dirt.

Air combat and dogfighting are not one and the same. Neither are they mutually exclusive. I suspect that you need to learn to pick your fights better, fight more energy economically and learn to read the fight better so that you cotton on when it's going against you and you need to disengage.

It's not up to the developers to undo all their hard work to make this sim as realistic as possible in order to cater for your lack of skill.

I recommend you take some time, read and absorb this: http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/.../inpursuit.pdf

[Woke Up Dead]

Hi Pugo, the AI aircraft are more aggressive and evade better in the new patches, though the ones with speed and/or climb advantages still like to use those advantages to "joust," as you describe it.

However, I believe it was the 4.11 patch that introduced something new to QMB: the ability to give yourself an altitude and/or a position advantage over your opponent. Want to make that 109 fight rather than just climb away? Give yourself a 500, 1000, or even 2000m starting altitude advantage over him and he won't have a choice.

I'm glad that you recognize that this is a game that should be fun, I think the changes to the QMB options and to the AI behaviour of the last two patches have made it more so.

[MaxGunz]

Originally Posted by Pugo3

Never mind this is not historical in the main, that the vast majority of encounter were close in dogfighting.

Whoever told you that or however you got that idea, it is wrong. 75% of downed planes pilots never saw their attacker.

But you can read stories and construct a selective reality, join Gaston and start preaching that FW-190's were actually better low speed turners than Spitfires and other I-can-read-words nonsense.

[Janosch]

The AI has several obvious performance boosts and other advantages, but the mistakes that even an ace AI opponent sometimes does are huge.

[K_Freddie]

Originally Posted by Pugo3

1) Previously, if the AI aircraft's performance in Quick mission is greater that yours, it climbs away to begin a series of endless 'jousting' head on passes/bounces. No dogfighting ever, just jousting - endless jousting. Has anyone else ever been able to close in dogfight a P-51 with a Me 109, Fw 190?

There are way's of countering this, but you have to quick on the controls.
if you're the target.. you must lead the attacker in a ever tightening turn. without letting it's nose get a lead on you. Pointing directly at you is fine as the deflection will cause it to miss.
Watching the a/c all through the attack, it will break off and zoom off. This is when you flip, in a flick-turn (after a bit of practise) and you have your nose pointing at him for a passing shot. Speed is not important.. doing damage is.

After a few of those.. the AI will bugger off, a human most likely will not try a second attack.

Originally Posted by Pugo3

2) If one chooses to dogfifght with multiple AI aircraft, for some unknown reason the AI aircraft become rocket powered, absolutely boosted performance. I actually most time enjoy this as it ads challenge, but at the same time I'm aware that this is an inaccuracy, and I would like to see how I would fare against multiple aircraft with realistic flight characteristics maintained even with increased number of advesaries.

DF's were more popular in the beginning of WW2, and less so towards the end, but they did happen.
All the conflicting combat reports are most probably factual, what of course is missing is the aircraft and pilot quality, and the exact situational details at the time of the report. This seems to have led to conflicts in interpretation with the armchair combat pilots here.

Doing it as you say, will increase you situational awareness considerably, as you learn to keep track of multiple aircraft. You also develop better tactics when handling multiple attackers.

[Laurwin]

Originally Posted by Janosch

The AI has several obvious performance boosts and other advantages, but the mistakes that even an ace AI opponent sometimes does are huge.

Interesting observation. What would these aerodynamic boosts to AI be?
I know theres probably no g-lock for AI first of all. Second of all, is the AI performed barrell-roll defense, during which not only is the defender rolling insanely fast, but he is also outrunning a faster attacker! This looks quite baffling when its done by the AI. I mean, it is done with a shallow diving barrel-roll, but equally importantly constant rolling
ought to slow their speed down quite a bit, right?

[KG26_Alpha]

Originally Posted by Pugo3

While I'm on the subjsect of aircraft performance...

I've read mostly positive reviews of the 4.11 - 4.12 patches regarding the improvements to AI characteristics. All good, I look forward to installing these patches, thanks to the good people and their work on our behalf. However, have the following issues been addressed?

1) Previously, if the AI aircraft's performance in Quick mission is greater that yours, it climbs away to begin a series of endless 'jousting' head on passes/bounces. No dogfighting ever, just jousting - endless jousting. Has anyone else ever been able to close in dogfight a P-51 with a Me 109, Fw 190?

It actually did happen, no, really it did. Honest to God, it really did happen occasionally.

I can only do so using another simm. Never mind this is not historical in the main, that the vast majority of encounter were close in dogfighting. The opportunity to see how one aircraft would compare in a dogfight with another is N/A - my chief complaint with Il-2 over the years. I know many love jousting and bouncing, but would it hurt to at least somehow be able just once to acutally dogfight another aircraft? Just once?

2) If one chooses to dogfifght with multiple AI aircraft, for some unknown reason the AI aircraft become rocket powered, absolutely boosted performance. I actually most time enjoy this as it ads challenge, but at the same time I'm aware that this is an inaccuracy, and I would like to see how I would fare against multiple aircraft with realistic flight characteristics maintained even with increased number of advesaries.

Love Il-2, many thanks to all who created it and are working to improve the product. Just please accept as recommendations to improve the brand.

Probably/possibly

The AI became predictable over the years and as far as I can ascertain from posts made by various TD members most of them fly Offline or in Dog Fight servers.

Offline the experience with AI become to easy to kill i suppose,
so the AI were given better routines to improve offline experience,
but this made it difficult in CooP missions where the AI can be predominate and make up 70% of the aircraft in the mission
making it a nightmare with crazy AI maneuvers everywhere and instant ace makers blowing your brains out.

So your experience with the AI behavior is different from a lot of us who have had them fly straight and level as drones to rolling flipping and zoom climbing freaks,
but were are grateful somethings being done with the AI but the day they do a "Split S" or "Cuban 8" in a fight will be a welcome one.

Im sure the AI are constantly on the "improvement list" and are definitely heading in the right direction.

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

Whoever told you that or however you got that idea, it is wrong. 75% of downed planes pilots never saw their attacker.

But you can read stories and construct a selective reality, join Gaston and start preaching that FW-190's were actually better low speed turners than Spitfires and other I-can-read-words nonsense.

Play nice please.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Laurwin

Interesting observation. What would these aerodynamic boosts to AI be?
I know theres probably no g-lock for AI first of all. Second of all, is the AI performed barrell-roll defense, during which not only is the defender rolling insanely fast, but he is also outrunning a faster attacker! This looks quite baffling when its done by the AI. I mean, it is done with a shallow diving barrel-roll, but equally importantly constant rolling
ought to slow their speed down quite a bit, right?

In 4.11 and 4.12 the AI have more varied defensive techniques and don't do the endless barrel roll defense which is simultaneously annoying and somewhat predictable.

Usually the roll is combined with a shallow dive allowing the defensive move to go on for quite a long time. It works online against human opponents too

[MaxGunz]

The AI didn't become predictable. Players just got good enough to begin predicting the AI. If the AI ever "think ahead" beyond the one move they are doing it will be a major step worthy of a whole new game.