P-51 Combat Tips and Tricks ( Dogfight Guide )

[pandacat]

Originally Posted by T}{OR

^^ Good post.

The biggest problem with .50s is to learn how to use them most effectively. What would undoubtedly make them more effective is if we had an option to set individual convergence (like in CloD). That would spread them out and more easily hurt anyone on the receiving end.

This is where I think, P-47 with its 8x.50 cals has an advantage. By pressing just your guns trigger you will fire only 2 pairs, to fire the other two you need to press your cannons trigger. Logic implies that different convergence for guns and cannons gives you different settings for each 2 pairs of .50. I need to test this in the game, but I am pretty sure this is the case.

Back to P-51. In order to maximize their efficiency you really need to fire in the ideal convergence range (as I demonstrated in the video). Best way of teaching yourself that is by just loading up QMB and trying to strafe soft targets on the ground. Soon you will learn not to fire too soon or too late.


Done a few sorties online lately and IIRC there was an P-51 FM change in one of the patches by TD? I had to change the way I fly to get the most out of the plane. Here is what I would recommend for 4.11.1, for COMBAT operations:

• Keep the radiator on AUTO, no need to touch it at all.
• Trim for +500 km/h IAS: RESET then apply 8 clicks of right rudder and 14 clicks of nose down elevators.
• Keep an eye on your manifold pressure, about 55" is just what is needed for COMBAT operations below 4000m. Above that you will need 100% power or more to maintain 55", especially in the range where the blower switches to high.
• Propeller pitch below 4000m is best set on 90-95. For steep climbing when speed drops below 400 km/h IAS use 100 PP.
• The same procedure goes if you're diving on someone or running away. Use 95-100 PP for the initial part of the dive while you reach 500 km/h IAS - then drop to 60-70 PP and observe Mustangs insane acceleration that no piston powered plane can match (apart from Dora if you started with same E levels).
• If running away / chasing a fast contact (e.g. Ar-234), after you level out at about +800 km/h IAS remove 4 clicks of rudder (for total 4 clicks of right rudder) to keep the ball centered. Use 70-80 PP to maintain E and speed.
• At +650 km/h IAS be very careful not to lose wings. Especially if using 100 across the whole range of your controller.

With the above combat settings you can easily keep the plane above 500 km/h IAS at all times. Cruise settings of 50" and 2700 RPM (~ 80 Power / 80 PP) will get you far whilst saving fuel. When you're done perfecting in the D model, grab Mustang III.



EDIT: And always remember that 50% fuel is sufficient for 2h flight on full power. Never ever take more than 20-30%. Save fuel by using cruise settings. Drop tanks are just for show. With 30% you only need to check your fuel tank behind your left shoulder (in reality IIRC this one was drained first as it changed P-51s CoG drastically, perhaps another thing for TD to fix...).

Thor, thanks for all the tips. Most of what you said is absolutely rite. I have tested these settings. Especially the radiator part. Just leave it on Auto, no need to play with it. My PP settings are a little different from yours. You can test mine to see if it's better.
1. level flight, >300 90%PP, >400 80%
2. Dive, initially 90% until I get to >400, reduce it 80% and above 600 down to 50%.
3. Climb, shallow at 90%, steep <300 100%
I set PP as bands on my throttle slider. Actually, anything lower than 50% PP is useless in this sim, so my lowest setting is 50%.

I have learned the lesson not to bang my throttle against the wall. It was cuz my throttle malfunctioned and I couldn't get to 110% that night, LOL. I mainly fly offline campagin. The problem is when you start off as a low rank flight officer, you don't get the right to change fuel load. At 100%, Stang is just a pig to fly. Later, I cheated by starting off as a major and set my starting fuel load at 25% and bring 2 drop tanks if it's a long patrol/flight. From my experience, convergence at 200 is better than 140 as described by Kling. For in-game 50cal, you need longer duration for your bursts. If the convergence 2 short, then you get 2 little time for your post shot manuver and often times end up colliding with the enemy's wreckage.

With regards to the aft fuesalage tank and COG issue, what Thor said is absolutely right for real Stang. If you take 2 identical p-51D's, one loaded with 25gal in each wing and the other 50gal in the fuesalage tank. The one with wing tank loaded will have very different and better performance curve than the fuesalage tank loaded one even though their weights r exactly the same. IL-2 as a game just took a simplified approch; it doesn't distinguish between wing tanks and fuesalage tank. I wonder, for those who have A2A P-51 or DCS P-51, if they can feel any difference.

[T}{OR]

You are welcome. Glad to see it works for you as well. Apart from 50 PP what you posted is almost the same as what I use. Now that you mention it, lowering to 50 PP in a dive when you cross the 550-600 km/h IAS mark might just give you that extra needed acceleration. I didn't test the new 4.11.1 Pony as much as I want to yet.

[K_Freddie]

I might add another tip on the P51 when BnZ'ing a FW.

What I do when attacked by a P51 is start a slow turn, tightening as he gets closer and at the moment he tries to line up a deflection shot, roll 90 pull down then roll another 180 a second later.
This move effectively puts him off target, forcing a flypast where he then often pulls up - he has no choice really.. or he'll be swiss cheese.
I'm then am applying flaps to lineup a quick passing shot.... most times there are no hits, but it's off putting to find your targets tracers whizzing by.
It's a great FW defensive tactic which I sort of worked out and applied a few times online with great success.. The P51 attackers then must have been experienced pilots, as they buggered off after 3 attempts

So when in a P51 be aware that you can be nailed on the flypass by a FW.

[pandacat]

Originally Posted by JtD

If you take a look at the performance of the 44'D-9 and P-51D and give the planes the same amount of fuel, you'll find that the P-51 has a very similar power loading and a lower wingloading than the Fw 190. It bleeds about the same energy as a Fw in a turn. It really depends on the altitude you're fighting at, the Fw's best altitudes being down low and between 4000 and 6000m, but between 1000m and 4000m, the P-51 is much better performing.
Weight with 500kg fuel: D-9: 4270, P-51D: 4420
maximum power output: D-9: 1750, P-51D: 1720
wing area: D-9: 18.6, P-51D: 21.4

But the main advantage, and the most important advantage to me, is the speed advantage the P-51D maintains at nearly all altitudes. It allows the pilot to engage and disengage at will. It helps to maintain high speeds after a dive, and thereafter, a better zoom climb. Not that a zoom climb with someone on your tail is a good idea, ever.

I've attached Il-2 compare data for a 44'D-9 and P-51D, both with 500kg fuel. Illustrates my points nicely (blue Fw 190, red P-51).

Hey Jtd. Are these charts from 4.11 or 4.10? I remember seeing a similar set posted by someone back in 2007 in 4.07. Those charts were vastly different from yours with P-51 significantly inferior to D9. Did you use Il-2 compare to graph the charts? Just curious.

[pandacat]

Originally Posted by T}{OR

You are welcome. Glad to see it works for you as well. Apart from 50 PP what you posted is almost the same as what I use. Now that you mention it, lowering to 50 PP in a dive when you cross the 550-600 km/h IAS mark might just give you that extra needed acceleration. I didn't test the new 4.11.1 Pony as much as I want to yet.

Keep us posted on your new findings. I am eager to learn. One more quick thing. Once you set rudder trim(say 8 clicks) and after a few hard manuvers you are still at roughly the same speed, do you adjust it again? I often times find after a few turns the ball will go off center even though my speed doesn't change much. I just have this feeling the ball's movement is a bit wacky.

[JtD]

Originally Posted by pandacat

Hey Jtd. Are these charts from 4.11 or 4.10? I remember seeing a similar set posted by someone back in 2007 in 4.07. Those charts were vastly different from yours with P-51 significantly inferior to D9. Did you use Il-2 compare to graph the charts? Just curious.

These charts are for the 4.11.1 flight models. The D-9'44 has gotten a realistic performance, and the P-51 chart shows performance with 500kg of fuel, which probably wasn't the case in the charts you've seen before. But yes, the picture is quite different from what it was in 4.07.

p.s.: Small corrections on the figures posted by me: max. power for the D-9 is 1900 hp, wing area 18.3.

[T}{OR]

Originally Posted by pandacat

Keep us posted on your new findings. I am eager to learn. One more quick thing. Once you set rudder trim(say 8 clicks) and after a few hard manuvers you are still at roughly the same speed, do you adjust it again? I often times find after a few turns the ball will go off center even though my speed doesn't change much. I just have this feeling the ball's movement is a bit wacky.

Will do. I usually do not touch trim unless I am diving. 8 clicks is ideal for ~450-500 km/h IAS and you should maintain this speed/setting throughout your combat maneuvers. But then again, if you are feeling extra diligent, adding 4 more clicks right to keep the ball centered should do it. I only touch rudder trim when diving.

[Freelansir]

Originally Posted by T}{OR

Will do. I usually do not touch trim unless I am diving. 8 clicks is ideal for ~450-500 km/h IAS and you should maintain this speed/setting throughout your combat maneuvers. But then again, if you are feeling extra diligent, adding 4 more clicks right to keep the ball centered should do it. I only touch rudder trim when diving.

From Bud Anderson's "He Was Someone Who Was Trying to Kill Me, Is All"

"He is falling away now, and I flop the nose over and go after him hard. We are very high by this time, six miles and then some, and falling very, very fast. The Messerschmitt had a head start, plummeting out of my range, but I'm closing up quickly. Then he flattens out and comes around hard to the left and starts climbing again, as if he wants to come at me head on. Suddenly we're right back where we started.

A lot of this is just instinct now. Things are happening too fast to think everything out. You steer with your right hand and feet. The right hand also triggers the guns. With your left, you work the throttle, and keep the airplane in trim, which is easier to do than describe.

Any airplane with a single propeller produces torque. The more horsepower you have, the more the prop will pull you off to one side. The Mustangs I flew used a 12-cylinder Packard Merlin engine that displaced 1,649 cubic inches. That is 10 times the size of the engine that powers an Indy car. It developed power enough that you never applied full power sitting still on the ground because it would pull the plane's tail up off the runway and the propeller would chew up the concrete. With so much power, you were continually making minor adjustments on the controls to keep the Mustang and its wing-mounted guns pointed straight.

There were three little palm-sized wheels you had to keep fiddling with. They trimmed you up for hands-off level flight. One was for the little trim tab on the tail's rudder, the vertical slab which moves the plane left or right. Another adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning. The third was for aileron trim, to keep your wings level, although you didn't have to fuss much with that one. Your left hand was down there a lot if you were changing speeds, as in combat . . . while at the same time you were making minor adjustments with your feet on the rudder pedals and your hand on the stick. At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial.

It's a little unnerving to think about how many things you have to deal with all at once to fly combat."

[pandacat]

Originally Posted by JtD

These charts are for the 4.11.1 flight models. The D-9'44 has gotten a realistic performance, and the P-51 chart shows performance with 500kg of fuel, which probably wasn't the case in the charts you've seen before. But yes, the picture is quite different from what it was in 4.07.

p.s.: Small corrections on the figures posted by me: max. power for the D-9 is 1900 hp, wing area 18.3.

How much is 500kg of fuel in terms of %? 25%? Just curious. 1900hp is with the boost right?

[K_Freddie]

Are you saying that the FM does not model fuel usage properly - Come to think of it, it doesn't.. otherwise we'll have people stalling out of the sky second to none