Patch 4.11 is a gift to open pit UFO fliers

[Zorin]

Originally Posted by WhistlinggDeath

Still checking on the various data posted by Ice and others.

Interesting data:

Seems the Ta can be caught now in level flight by the Spit 25lbs when both have rad open and boost 110% on (TA levels at 530/540 kph, Spit 25lbs at 550 kph)

Sorry, what... did I just write that. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

But so far, that is what I get in QMB on the Okinawa map.

Not sure yet, but seems the FW and TA dives are not as fast now (will check code maybe tomorrow).

P51, the monster of WWII that soared at 12000m escorting bombers and dove on opponents at 900 kph, can be caught in level flight by spit 25lbs and several other uber planes (P51 goes about 550/560 on 110% with boost, and Spit can now catch it, as can the well known 185 M-71 (two of these were made in WWII) at 580 kph).

Still testing.....

Who designed this patch anyway ?

Good god... breath.

1. Okinawa is not the map to execute tests on.
2. You give no details on the conditions of your testing, like altitude, fuel lelvels etc. Therefor, they are not valid at all.
3. Learn to fly and accept that planes have optimum fighting altitudes. Your beloved TA-152H has never been a low alt turn fighter, for once.

[JG27_PapaFly]

Our squad did extensive internal matches in 4.11, specifically to get a feeling for the new overheat models + FMs. We did A LOT of spit9/8/9_25lbs vs FW series 2 vs 2 fights, switching planes afterwards.

None of us had the impression that the spits are uber concerning overheating.
To the contrary: being forced to turn hard to evade FW190 gun passes overheats spit engines real fast, while the 190s faired very well, as they kept their speed up. When keeping the spit engine close to overheat and pulling vertical to follow a FW zoom, we usually got the overheat message right away, which meant we could follow FWs during zooms only 1, maximum 2 times. With a hot engine, the spit driver now has to cut back on the throttle a lot, and give up altitude in order to maintain maneuvering speed.

In all game versions prior to 4.10, the spit25 was absolutely ridiculous: the engine got cooler when flying at full boost + WEP at slow speeds! I'm glad those times are gone.

Guys flying high as a team, supporting each other and managing their engines will blast any spit/la/185 out of the sky, and much faster than in previous patches.

WD, if you picture energy fighting as an endless succession of full power vertical climbs, followed by diving attacks, preferrably performed by a lone wolf who tries to dominate a server, it's time to change tactics. Any friggin engine will be cooked if run at full power and very slow speeds, and that is realistic.

All so-called tests presented in this thread so far are invalid. With random effects now being part of the overheat model, you must test each plane at least three times under the same conditions. Preferrably a steady max power climb at slow speed. After that, you calculate the average time to overheat, and then perform student's T-test on the obtained values. Only this or similar statistical tests of significance (like Mann-Whitney's U test) will tell you whether the average time to overheat of 2 planes are significantly different. Everything else is bollocks that wastes people's times.

There is one more point to consider: engine temps at spawn are well below what you can attain as a steady-state temp in-flight. Measuring time to overheat from spawn is not relevant to time to overheat as experienced during fights long after spawning. Plus we don't really know whether all planes spawn with the same oil/coolant/cylinder heat temp on a given map.

S!

[WhistlinggDeath]

Interesting info Papa, but I respectfully disagree. The TA in particular has been toasted and the FWs and Mustangs to a slightly lesser degree. And yes, any team (even relatively untrained members) can use five FWs to bring down one Spit 25lbs. I could use five Japanese float planes to do the same thing too. That is pretty much meaningless. And that is not a true test of metal. What counts is one versus one, same alt, ... no firing on first pass, then the fight is on. Try it and you will clearly see the deterioration of the engine in most BnZ centered planes with 4.11.

I think tomorrow, I am going to release a flight model for the TA 152 H1 in 4.11 that sets specs for it back to the 4.10.1 flight model. I will call this new model TA 4.10.1, but it will be made only for fully patched 4.11 versions of IL2. Then Ulti and I will demonstrate quite clearly for all who enjoy ntrks, just how badly it has been borked in 4.11. Whichever one of us flies the 4.10.1 model will beat the living s%%! out of the other one, and do so easily.

Once we test it and make some laughable NTRKs, we will release it to some select testers.

Another point many of you are not catching is that I (or we, my few buds) are not against overheating models or more realistic engine handling.

WE $%^&$%! LOVE THAT STUFF !

Heck, I wrote a guide about prop pitch at M4T to help out guys who got confused. We welcome more realistic engine flight models. We just dont think it is applied fairly as it stands in 4.11. The BnZ planes took it in the butt, and the TA got double teamed into the toilet, while the Spit 25lbs and 185 are very lightly affected. Also, from what I can read so far (and I have more to learn), the 4.11 TA or FW models arent holding up to the general consensus on real world planes. In real life, I keep seeing a figure of ten minutes for boost with the TA. It was designed to be a diving killer, .. not an overheating Ki-61 turd that exits out of the fight after pass one.

So Papa, do what I did. Take the TA 152 H1, get her up to 1000m in level flight at 530 kph and dont pressure the engine (take a bit to get up to full speed). Then take a small dive to translate a little KE and put on boost and power up to 110% and climb steeply (as if escaping a chasing spit 25lbs). By the time you reach your apex (after about 1870m of climb) and are close to complete stall, your engine will be in serious overheat.

In one pass.

Now try this in ole 4.10.1 and notice the extreme difference. The delta is large in 4.11 for the TA. Very large.

Now try this for say the Spit 25lbs. The difference between 4.11 and 4.10.1 is fairly small. A bit of overheat but nothing really kicks in for quite a bit.

Ponder on it a bit.

[jermin]

Originally Posted by JG27_PapaFly

Our squad did extensive internal matches in 4.11, specifically to get a feeling for the new overheat models + FMs. We did A LOT of spit9/8/9_25lbs vs FW series 2 vs 2 fights, switching planes afterwards.

None of us had the impression that the spits are uber concerning overheating.
To the contrary: being forced to turn hard to evade FW190 gun passes overheats spit engines real fast, while the 190s faired very well, as they kept their speed up. When keeping the spit engine close to overheat and pulling vertical to follow a FW zoom, we usually got the overheat message right away, which meant we could follow FWs during zooms only 1, maximum 2 times. With a hot engine, the spit driver now has to cut back on the throttle a lot, and give up altitude in order to maintain maneuvering speed.

In all game versions prior to 4.10, the spit25 was absolutely ridiculous: the engine got cooler when flying at full boost + WEP at slow speeds! I'm glad those times are gone.

Guys flying high as a team, supporting each other and managing their engines will blast any spit/la/185 out of the sky, and much faster than in previous patches.

WD, if you picture energy fighting as an endless succession of full power vertical climbs, followed by diving attacks, preferrably performed by a lone wolf who tries to dominate a server, it's time to change tactics. Any friggin engine will be cooked if run at full power and very slow speeds, and that is realistic.

All so-called tests presented in this thread so far are invalid. With random effects now being part of the overheat model, you must test each plane at least three times under the same conditions. Preferrably a steady max power climb at slow speed. After that, you calculate the average time to overheat, and then perform student's T-test on the obtained values. Only this or similar statistical tests of significance (like Mann-Whitney's U test) will tell you whether the average time to overheat of 2 planes are significantly different. Everything else is bollocks that wastes people's times.

There is one more point to consider: engine temps at spawn are well below what you can attain as a steady-state temp in-flight. Measuring time to overheat from spawn is not relevant to time to overheat as experienced during fights long after spawning. Plus we don't really know whether all planes spawn with the same oil/coolant/cylinder heat temp on a given map.

S!

Thanks for your input.

Flying as a team seems like a pro's suggestion. But please find me a decent populated stock 4.11m non-arcade server where teamwork can come into play.

What's more, we are talking about purely aircraft performance here. Please keep tactics and teamwork aside.

Although I haven't pointed out how many times I had run the same test, but since you have taken part in so many internal matches, did you find the randomness feature play a big part in overheating time? Or in other words, should it make such a big difference?

I did agree with you on your last argument though. But don't you think that MW-50 can only be used for 3 minutes before the engine is damaged is a bit too ridiculous?

[WhistlinggDeath]

BTW, for the folks who want to see the differences quite quickly, here is a link to a switcher so you can move between 4.10.1 and 4.11 very fast to test flight models. (hope this is okay here, if not, no bad intentions meant):

http://www.thefoxbats.ch/forums/view...php?f=10&t=278

Was going to build one myself, but Neuro did it for us.

S! Neuro

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by WhistlinggDeath

What counts is one versus one, same alt, ... no firing on first pass, then the fight is on. Try it and you will clearly see the deterioration of the engine in most BnZ centered planes with 4.11.

How exactly do you perform this BnZ with BnZ centered plane in a co-alt co-E situation as described (e.g. classic duel)?

Doing usual BnZ a lot, I didn't find anything unusual in 4.11.

[Luno13]

German planes may have had 10 minutes if WM50, but that doesn't mean it HAD to be able to be used continuously throughout that time.

Your average Mustang has ~25 seconds worth of ammo, but if you held the trigger for that long, the guns would be ruined. If gun overheating were modeled, would you complain about that too?

Flying as a team seems like a pro's suggestion. But please find me a decent populated stock 4.11m non-arcade server where teamwork can come into play.

What's more, we are talking about purely aircraft performance here. Please keep tactics and teamwork aside.

I think a certain someone here claimed that actual pilot references would prove his point about certain aircraft.... Actual pilots used tactics and teamwork, which go beyond pure performance. Furthermore, the proportion of trained to untrained pilots in the Luftwaffe lessened with the progression of the war, while allied pilots could train in safety. Many rookies didn't know how to get the best out of their planes, and that shows in reports.

And how many pilots got the chance to sit in a P-51 and then a factory fresh (not sabotaged by groundcrew to prevent capture, with all pilot manuals to prevent breaking the engine in a silly way) Fw-190 to compare? There is more subjectivity to those old accounts than many realize.

Come on, TD. Do you really think an aircraft produced in 1939 (I-153P-M62) is able to give a late-war German piston fighter (Bf-109K-4 C3) a hard time in dogfight?

Hey cheer up! We've all been there, you just need some practice.

So Papa, do what I did. Take the TA 152 H1, get her up to 1000m in level flight at 530 kph and dont pressure the engine (take a bit to get up to full speed). Then take a small dive to translate a little KE and put on boost and power up to 110% and climb steeply (as if escaping a chasing spit 25lbs). By the time you reach your apex (after about 1870m of climb) and are close to complete stall, your engine will be in serious overheat.

You must remember that the Ta-152 was designed and tuned for high altitude work. Down low, that big wing is just slowing it down.

P51, the monster of WWII that soared at 12000m escorting bombers and dove on opponents at 900 kph, can be caught in level flight by spit 25lbs and several other uber planes (P51 goes about 550/560 on 110% with boost, and Spit can now catch it, as can the well known 185 M-71 (two of these were made in WWII) at 580 kph).

Are you just trolling on purpose? 900kph is 560 mph. No piston powered war-plane could reach that in level flight. In totally level flight, the P-51 can reach a higher max speed than the spitfire in just about any regime of flight except at and below 1000m. According to Il-2 compare, the Mustang's TAS can reach 710 kph at 7000m. The spit's theoretical max TAS is 640 kph, at 5000m. At 7000m with the mustang, it starts decreasing, to 630 kph, and drops considerably above that.

Remember that the Mustang has practically the same engine as the Spitfire, but is 1.5 times as heavy. The difference in performance comes about through aerodynamics. That said, it takes a longer time for the Mustang to reach its top speed than the Spit.

Your "tests" prove nothing.

[jermin]

LOL. Seriously, you really thought I need practice? Trust me, I can easily shoot your ass off in a duel. I really don't know why some of you like to treat complainers as noobs, every time.

As for the MW50 usage, I suggest you do some reading before putting up something like that.

[Zorin]

Originally Posted by jermin

LOL. Seriously, you really thought I need practice? Trust me, I can easily shoot your ass off in a duel. I really don't know why some of you like to treat complainers as noobs, every time.

As for the MW50 usage, I suggest you do some reading before putting up something like that.

Maybe that is because you are one?

MW50 was not meant to allow you to stay longer in a fight, it was meant to allow you to get your ass back home in one piece. It should allow the pilots to get out of a nasty spot in the fastest way, helping to cool/prevent further heating of the engine in level flight or shallow dives/climbes at max rated power.

You really are not able to present yourself in any way as a respectable contributor to the present argument.

[swiss]

Maybe this problem is connected to the new proppitch in 4.11?
If I understand it correctly, high power means low pitch, low power high pitch.
Now, if u dive with auto pp, you will run the engine with too high rpm, which leads to "premature" overheating.

Just a guess, havent tried, I also always flew with manual proppitch before - and only used low pitch in a dive with low power to slow down.