Patch 4.11 is a gift to open pit UFO fliers

[WhistlinggDeath]

After some testing, overall I like the patch, but for online combat, this is a big gift to the already gifted UFO aircraft, like the 185 M-71, the Spit 25lbs, and to a slightly lesser extent the La7.

Subjectively, (I will look at their source code later to find out the exact objective time limits) on a scale of one being never overheat to ten being overheating within ten seconds or so at radiator set to 4, and starting the first combat pass with boost fully on (110% power), you have:

Spit 25lbs - 1 - engine does not overheat much
185 M-71 - 1 or 2, ... dido
La7 - about 2.5 or 3, some overheat but only after maybe five minutes
P39 Q10 or P63 about 6 or 7, will overheat after about maybe 90 seconds
FW Dora D9 1945 - about 8, overheats within one minute, and damage comes soon after
P51 D-NT - about 9, overheat after 20 to 40 seconds, damage quickly results if not scaled back in pitch
TA-152 H1 - about 10, the worst of the group and totally f#%^#! by TD. Overheats in maybe 20 seconds, engine will burn out down low in under one min. Definitely not the plane Kurt Tank designed.

What this means subjectively for online combat is that the P51 pilot who got maybe four kills an hour, will now get one, and this is due to needing to exit the combat area to continually cool the engine. You now have to spend so much more time now out of the fight riding around at 60 percent pitch and 60 or 70 percent power. This means most of the former BnZ aircraft are essentially borked to a medium or large degree. You get one or maybe two passes and if you dont score hits, you must, ... repeat must exit the field or your engine will quickly go, while your spit 25lbs opponent can simply catch you on boost since their engine takes so much longer to overheat. The overheat issue is so bad that even a master P51 vet with years in IL2 can be defeated by a much less dangerous plane that has longer engine overheat times. You simply wait em out till their engine goes bad, and then they have either burned it up or they cannot zoom away at 560 kph and you catch em and take em out. To see this clearly, try the F4U-D 1944 vs the P51 D-NT 1944 in both 4.10.1 and 4.11. In ole 4.10.1 they were very closely matched and a master P51 pilot could eventually turn the tables on the corsair. Now, the corsair pilot does not need to even fly that well, you just wait out the P51 until the engine goes and catch em in most cases.

Dont believe me, try it yourself. Did you really need to boost the ranks of the already numerous and less than adequately skilled 185 M-71 and Spit 25lbs pilots Team D?

I dont believe in aviation history bookfights over whose book is more accurate, so later this week I am working on arranging a phone interview with a surviving Tuskegee airman and perhaps a German FW Dora pilot. I dont believe planes overheated in 30 seconds on boost, but I will ask them in detail. This patch is messed up TD in the overheat department. And yes, the TA was a monster in real life and 4.11 just crippled the $%#! out of it.

And thanks to my friend 357th_Ulti (a P51 master) for helping test this under full real conditions.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by WhistlinggDeath

TA-152 H1 - about 10, the worst of the group and totally f#%^#! by TD. Overheats in maybe 20 seconds, engine will burn out down low in under one min. Definitely not the plane Kurt Tank designed.

In a not very scientific test I ran a Ta152H-1 on the Bessarabia map at 90% for two minutes followed by 110% run with MW50 engaged in a slight climb and it was another 2 minutes and 35-40ish seconds before I got the overheat warning. I ran that for another minute and then backed off to 80% and the engine cooled rapidly and I was on my way again.

Whats your testing methodology that gets you a 20 second overheat?

[KG26_Alpha]

Originally Posted by WhistlinggDeath

After some testing, overall I like the patch, but for online combat, this is a big gift to the already gifted UFO aircraft, like the 185 M-71, the Spit 25lbs, and to a slightly lesser extent the La7.

Subjectively, (I will look at their source code later to find out the exact objective time limits) on a scale of one being never overheat to ten being overheating within ten seconds or so at radiator set to 4, and starting the first combat pass with boost fully on (110% power), you have:

Spit 25lbs - 1 - engine does not overheat much
185 M-71 - 1 or 2, ... dido
La7 - about 2.5 or 3, some overheat but only after maybe five minutes
P39 Q10 or P63 about 6 or 7, will overheat after about maybe 90 seconds
FW Dora D9 1945 - about 8, overheats within one minute, and damage comes soon after
P51 D-NT - about 9, overheat after 20 to 40 seconds, damage quickly results if not scaled back in pitch
TA-152 H1 - about 10, the worst of the group and totally f#%^#! by TD. Overheats in maybe 20 seconds, engine will burn out down low in under one min. Definitely not the plane Kurt Tank designed.

What this means subjectively for online combat is that the P51 pilot who got maybe four kills an hour, will now get one, and this is due to needing to exit the combat area to continually cool the engine. You now have to spend so much more time now out of the fight riding around at 60 percent pitch and 60 or 70 percent power. This means most of the former BnZ aircraft are essentially borked to a medium or large degree. You get one or maybe two passes and if you dont score hits, you must, ... repeat must exit the field or your engine will quickly go, while your spit 25lbs opponent can simply catch you on boost since their engine takes so much longer to overheat. The overheat issue is so bad that even a master P51 vet with years in IL2 can be defeated by a much less dangerous plane that has longer engine overheat times. You simply wait em out till their engine goes bad, and then they have either burned it up or they cannot zoom away at 560 kph and you catch em and take em out. To see this clearly, try the F4U-D 1944 vs the P51 D-NT 1944 in both 4.10.1 and 4.11. In ole 4.10.1 they were very closely matched and a master P51 pilot could eventually turn the tables on the corsair. Now, the corsair pilot does not need to even fly that well, you just wait out the P51 until the engine goes and catch em in most cases.

Dont believe me, try it yourself. Did you really need to boost the ranks of the already numerous and less than adequately skilled 185 M-71 and Spit 25lbs pilots Team D?

I dont believe in aviation history bookfights over whose book is more accurate, so later this week I am working on arranging a phone interview with a surviving Tuskegee airman and perhaps a German FW Dora pilot. I dont believe planes overheated in 30 seconds on boost, but I will ask them in detail. This patch is messed up TD in the overheat department. And yes, the TA was a monster in real life and 4.11 just crippled the $%#! out of it.

And thanks to my friend 357th_Ulti (a P51 master) for helping test this under full real conditions.

Nice first post lol.

Anyway......................before getting on the phone and bothering those elderly gentlemen with your dilemma.

Please read the v4.11 manual regarding overheat.

4.11 introduces a more detailed and more accurate radiator model. It is different from the
previous model in many ways, the main differences being:

• radiator settings now have an impact on both water/cylinder and oil temperature
• outside temperature now has an impact on oil temperatures
• engine rpm has a bigger impact
• impact of WEP is dependent on extra power generated
• mixture setting has an impact
• the density of the air has an impact
• aircraft speed has a bigger impact
• there is no longer a fixed period after which damage occurs in case of overheat
• introducing a random chance for damage depending on how strongly the engine
overheats
• type of damage is depending on if it is water/cylinder or oil overheating

You will generally find that the planes overheat a lot more, in particular if you are not on a cold
map in fast level flight. As a guideline, on hotter maps you can expect fighters to be able to
sustain about 70% power at 70% pitch without overheating radiators closed, for bombers it is
somewhat more. The values in many cases are reasonably close to real life maximum
continuous settings (please don't go by cockpit gauges, they aren't always accurate).
If you start a low speed full power dogfight with a closed radiator, you can expect the engine
to overheat rapidly and to get damaged quickly. War emergency power settings should
therefore only be used in an emergency, otherwise your plane might get destroyed without
your enemy even firing a shot.

To keep engine temperatures low, remember:
• use low rpm (reduce pitch), in particular oil temperature are sensitive towards rpm
• use low throttle settings (and avoid WEP)
• open the radiator
• fly faster (don't climb at too low speeds)
• use an as rich mixture as possible



Have fun with the new style of flying .



.

[IvanK]

Hmm !

just done some quick testing aimed and engine destruction. Ignored Overheat message.
Just went balls to the wall to maintain Vmax for as long as possible. Note Overheat message does NOT mean damage imminent ... its just a heads up to keep an eye on things.

TA152H
Sea Level Normandy Map, Midday, Rad Full open Max ATA, Max RPM, MW50
Overheat message appeared at 1min 33 secs elapsed time
No engine damage noticeable until 5min 58secs elapsed ... feint grey smoke
At 8min 38 seconds significant damage ... RPM reductions in the order of 100RPM
Progressive performance deterioration until at 10min 19secs insufficient power to maintain level flight.

P51D
Sea Level Normandy Map Midday,Rad Full Open, 67"MAP (WEP) 3000RPM,
Overheat message illuminated at 2min 4 seconds elapsed
Slight performance degradation (loss of 10Kmh IAS) after 5min 4 seconds elapsed
Oil splatter at 9 min 10 seconds elapsed

You will get slightly different results from test to test as a randomness factor is also at work.

EDIT: since some card read. Start was at Sea level or the closest QMB would give i.e. 100metres.

[WhistlinggDeath]

I will check that objectively Ivan in a bit. You did not specify what alt you started the planes with. Your also not specifying a boom and zoom (giant loop) trajectory which overheats the engine MUCH quicker (but that is the manner in which these planes are to be flown). After one or two high climbs (say from 500m back up to 2500m), we are already on overheat. I think I and the other BnZ online fliers welcome proper engine management (at least I do) but why did you ruin the TA ? Across the board, the super planes (185, spit 25lbs, La7) just arent that affected but the BnZ planes are hit hard. It means we spend all our time cooling engines at 70 pitch before we engage again. For offline combat where any IQ 120 seven year old can defeat the AI things may be fairly even, but in online combat, there is now little balance between the BnZ planes which already had a tough time at even steven alt, and the uber planes.

Will check your figures tonight. Please correct the FW, and TA models and make the overheat apply equally to all. The spit 25lbs can go a long time (it seems) with nada, nothing bad happening.

[julien673]

Originally Posted by WhistlinggDeath

I will check that objectively Ivan in a bit. You did not specify what alt you started the planes with. Your also not specifying a boom and zoom (giant loop) trajectory which overheats the engine MUCH quicker (but that is the manner in which these planes are to be flown). After one or two high climbs (say from 500m back up to 2500m), we are already on overheat. I think I and the other BnZ online fliers welcome proper engine management (at least I do) but why did you ruin the TA ? Across the board, the super planes (185, spit 25lbs, La7) just arent that affected but the BnZ planes are hit hard. It means we spend all our time cooling engines at 70 pitch before we engage again. For offline combat where any IQ 120 seven year old can defeat the AI things may be fairly even, but in online combat, there is now little balance between the BnZ planes which already had a tough time at even steven alt, and the uber planes.

Will check your figures tonight. Please correct the FW, and TA models and make the overheat apply equally to all. The spit 25lbs can go a long time (it seems) with nada, nothing bad happening.

mdr

[IceFire]

Spitfire LF.IXe CW +25lbs
Crimea, Noon
1000 meters
Throttle 110%
Rads Auto
Overheat at 1:19
Engine inoperable at 2:29

I-185M-82A
Crimea, Noon
1000 meters
Rads Closed
Throttle 100% (no 110%)
Forzah (Boost) On
Overheat at 1:31
Engine inoperable at 2:51

Ta152H-1
Crimea, Noon
1000 meters
Throttle 110%
Rads Auto
MW50 (Boost) On
Overheat at 0:52
Engine damage at 6:50
Engine inoperable at 10:11

I'm seeing a bit of a different picture here. It was the Ta152 that went on and on and on while the Spitfire +25 died after only a couple of minutes. I should mention that this would constitute an extreme example. Full throttle with boost on and using default radiator settings. Twice that was auto and once that was closed. I imagine the I-185 might last a bit longer in this test if I opened the radiators.

EDIT: I also redid the test on the Spitfire (same model)... it was 3:42 seconds before the engine died completely.

[WhistlinggDeath]

Icefire, will check it objectively in a bit. I am not seeing this in combat though. In 4.10.1, the TA was something to be feared, now it is an overheating mess that is good for one pass, maybe two and then you must exit or engine smoke pours out.

Jumowhatever - Not the place to make your inaccurate attacks. If you know anything about me, it is that I ran a full real duel server for 18 months on HL and now run it on Xfire for IL2 1946 (4.10.1), LOMAC FC2 and ROF. Sometimes though bc I live on the West Coast and can only fly at night, there is little to no one in HL (usually about 20 folks), which means the only populated US server is RCAF (which is open pit and filled with 185 M-71s and Spit 25lbs), and the only populated closed pit server is Viril Duel server (Russia) (usually filled with La7s and 185 M-71s with a few Bf 109s thrown in). Check facts before posting hate.

[jermin]

Originally Posted by WhistlinggDeath

Your also not specifying a boom and zoom (giant loop) trajectory which overheats the engine MUCH quicker (but that is the manner in which these planes are to be flown).

I can't agree more!

Level flight testing is far from a proper method. You won't fly straight level forever in an air combat, will you? Try turning, climbing, zooming before you compare your test result with real-life data.

Besides, my testing result is similar to WhistlinggDeath's.

I've created a duel quick mission to test the overheating of German fighters and then Allied fighters to do a compare. The mission setup is:

Map: Crimea
Time: 12:00
Player aircraft fuel quantity: 30%
Player aircraft spawning altitude: 1000m
Enemy aircraft: I-185-M71 X 1 with 30% fuel
Enemy aircraft spawning altitude: 1000m

Testing procedures:

Immediately after spawning, I pulled back the throttle and enabled MW50 (or other WEP, if available) and then pushed forward to maximum 110%. The radiator was left to game default. I then did a shallow dive to about 500 meters till I passed the enemy aircraft. Then I started dogfighting with him. I did it mostly in the vertical plane. When I pulled up from the dive, I got the overheating message. It was merely 53 seconds into flight. If I continued dogfighting with full throttle, the engine would be cooked up within 3 minutes. (you can tell it from the oil blotch spilled onto the windscreen and the over-revolution engine sound.)

Then I did another test with 500 km/h level flight with the same power setup. (no enemy aircrafts) The engine was still damaged within 5 minutes.

Historically, MW50 can be used continuously for 10 mins. After that, the engine needs to rest for at least 5 mins before enabling MW50 boost again. But in 4.11, the engine will overheat about 53 seconds after enabling MW50. Well within 3 minutes, the engine will be cooked up.

I also tested P-51D, late-war Fw-190s and Ta-152-H1, Spits and Russian UFOs. I have the same conclusion with WhistlinggDeath:

The new not-so-fair overheating feature in 4.11 has totally shredded the already extremely unbalanced online play into pieces. Leave alone so many unrealistically super uber Western and Russian UFOs.

[WhistlinggDeath]

Wow, this place reminds me of that HL forum.

Caspar - I didnt say I wasnt going to try it. I said I would test it later and I am. Be cool dude and no need for the hate.

Other fliers - The critical difference in 4.11 is not level flight speed , it is time to engine overheat while doing an apex climb.

This is the way Boom and Zoom fighters were designed to work. Period. This is the method of the P51, FW, TA, Tempy, etc.... fully 40% of the planes in the game were designed for. You fly it in level flight and turn horizontally, you usually die. They are designed for the vertical fight, to boom down and zoom right back up using apex climbs that get close to stall speed often when they top out.

They dive and then zoom climb back up (say 2000m in one go from base attack back up close to stalling out).

I can faithfully replicate, putting the TA 152 into a dive with 4.11 and then climb to stall speed (it stalls at about 1870m of climb from whatever altitude you started the climb from, and at about 200 kph), by which time the engine is overheating, IN ONE PASS. Which means about 10 seconds. Apologies to Ice for not being clear about this before but was roughly testing earlier. If I keep this up, the engine is fried by pass 3 or 4. This is directly contrary to all the historical evidence of the late FWs and TAs which where specifically designed for zooming up to the clouds.

THIS STALL CLIMB HEATING IS THE CRITICAL DIFFERENCE OF 4.11 versus 4.10.1. In the older patch, I could get three to five apex climbs before overheat (say roughly 2 to 5 min). Now, in 4.11, I must drop pitch, exit and circle around cooling the engine. That makes my TA or FW or P51 damn near worthless. Why ? Cause I must circle to continually cool the engine and after one steep climb I am back in overheat territory. So I am now left with level flight turning combat and everyone knows how bad the P51 or TA sucks at that against a Spit 25lbs or La7.

As to the level flight data provided by others, still checking. I can see though that the TA has had a significant reduction in abilities (and about 30 kph in level flight speed) from 4.10.1 to 4.11.

Still testing.....

I do not appreciate more gifts being handed to the already underwhelming open pit Spit 25lbs/185/La7 princesses.