Torpedoing moving ships

[Woke Up Dead]

The SM-79 and I think also one of the Ju-88s have a special torpedo sight for hitting moving ships. I recall seeing instructions on how to use these before, but can't find them now. It has something to do with estimating the ship's speed by the angle of the smoke coming out of its stacks, and then referencing a chart with the ship's speed on one axis and the angle on the torpedo sight on the other.

Does anyone have that chart and does anyone know how to approximate ship speed by smoke angle?

Thanks.

WokeUp

[Woke Up Dead]

Originally Posted by neoasel

DT video:
http://youtu.be/dKFbIFu4v6o

Nicely explained, but torpedoes were dropped too close. The whole point of Kommandogerat is to be able to drop torpedoes from larger and safe distances and to be precise - score hits:
http://youtu.be/fBTIQ9gHoxw

Thanks. The Italian one is a bit different, not as automated. With either one, you still need to know how to approximate the speed of the ship, how do you do that?

[Kittle]

I watched a video on YouTube the other day that showed a torpedo attack on a German merchant convoy by British Beuforts. This was the real deal, and when they made their runs they didn't release until very close to the targets ships. In IL2 it's far easier then in real life since the ships don't take evasive action when you attack. You need to be a few hundred feet from your target when you drop, but at that distance you should be able to eye ball it. Now......this is very, very, very dangerous for the pilots flying the attack. In the video you could see the German AA gunners scoring good hit on the bombers, claiming to have shot down 5 of 10.

[RPS69]

Torpedoes must be used as saturation weapons, as almost all air weapons of WWII. Every time some airforce tried a torpedo attack alone, the results were poor. However the combination of dive bombers and torpedo attacks were a whole other thing.

Firing a torpedo far away from a ship convoy, enable them to maneuver and avoid the attack, but on il2 ships are absolutelly cooperative on their single minded behaviour.

The date when TD could improve ships behaviour while under attack, this will be a whole different game on naval operations.

Still, maybe this code can't be accessed by them.

[Luno13]

Originally Posted by RPS69

Torpedoes must be used as saturation weapons, as almost all air weapons of WWII. Every time some airforce tried a torpedo attack alone, the results were poor. However the combination of dive bombers and torpedo attacks were a whole other thing.

Firing a torpedo far away from a ship convoy, enable them to maneuver and avoid the attack, but on il2 ships are absolutelly cooperative on their single minded behaviour.

The date when TD could improve ships behaviour while under attack, this will be a whole different game on naval operations.

Still, maybe this code can't be accessed by them.

I agree. Torpedoes were launched en masse as many might be duds, many more might miss, and even more might be lost due to enemy action against the attacking aircraft.

I would also like to see more detailed DM for some ships. For instance, in the Pacific Beaufighters would be used to launch rockets and strafe the AA guns on ships or cause general panic. Then the torpedo planes or bombers would arrive and have an easier time. You can't do this in Il-2 as you can't progressively damage ships (they are fine until they suddenly sink) and you can't damage sub-systems like gun placements.

[Asheshouse]

Originally Posted by Luno13

You can't do this in Il-2 as you can't progressively damage ships (they are fine until they suddenly sink) and you can't damage sub-systems like gun placements.

Not true. Every gun mount has a dedicated "collision box" and damage model. Every gun can be individually destroyed. The "hardness" of the turret also varies, so enclosed turrets are harder to destroy than open mounts. The models have been like this since the early days.

Ashe

[RPS69]

Originally Posted by Asheshouse

Not true. Every gun mount has a dedicated "collision box" and damage model. Every gun can be individually destroyed. The "hardness" of the turret also varies, so enclosed turrets are harder to destroy than open mounts. The models have been like this since the early days.

Ashe

The only way I know to hit a turret on a ship, was by the after implementations of Lal's Rhone mods. Original IL2 behaviour was that the ship sinks first from whatever damage, than having a broken turret.

[Asheshouse]

I can only speak from experience of having created one or two ship models and having examined a few of the older models in the game, KGV. Illustrious, Tirpitz, Lexington and others. The behaviour is not dependant on any mods, though modding can affect the degree of visible list etc when the ship is damaged.

All of the turrets and open gun mounts on these ships can be individually destroyed. If destroyed you will see the visual model of the mount change and may see fire and smoke and of course the gun will stop firing.

This may not apply to a few of the earliest ship models produced (ShipGeneric classification) but does apply to all of the larger models which come under the BigshipGeneric classification.

What you will not get is any progressive slowing of the ship speed etc. although you may see some listing when hull sections begin to take damage. The ship will not sink until the hull sections are sufficiently damaged.

The damage model for the hull is pretty basic, comprising just three large sections, so the ability to hit critical locations like boiler rooms or magasines does not exist and armour belts are not simulated in any realistic way. Hull boxes are assumed to have similar armour strength on all faces, but after all, this is an aircraft sim.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by Asheshouse

The damage model for the hull is pretty basic, comprising just three large sections, so the ability to hit critical locations like boiler rooms or magasines does not exist and armour belts are not simulated in any realistic way. Hull boxes are assumed to have similar armour strength on all faces, but after all, this is an aircraft sim.

Are all the hull boxes in one ship of the same durability? Doesen't seem like they are (Hit a destroyer with 1000 lbs aft or very far forward -gone. Hit in between-alive).
If the damage model of ships can't be improved without major reworking, then at least some randomness should be applied to it. So it will occur then and now that thousand pounds of bombs don't sink a destroyer and 500 pounds sink it sometimes - and maybe even less (100 lbs sunk Kisaragi).

Some chance of a fire breaking out by a bomb hit could also improve the damage model, that fire could spread to the next compartment - or crew effort could contain it. Would only need some number shuffling in the background, no rework of hit boxes or such. Especially aboard carriers fires were a really dangerous thing, and Princeton was lost to a single 500 kg bomb hit and Akagi to a 1000lbs hit (though it is likely that one other near misses made things substantially worse) as the resulting fires spread uncontrollably and in the end touched of the magazines.

[Woke Up Dead]

How do you estimate a ship's speed?