soviet planes and 4.1x...
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about lagg-3, so-called, "66 serie"...
here in table lagg-3 № 6011 and № 7166 ie it's 60 and 71 series... confirmation - Quote:
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next, control tests from Rodionov's Chronology... state testing of lagg-3 60 serie with identification of many defects (it's for what need these test, mainly, i repeat) - Quote:
further, if briefly, lagg-3 № 6311 (released in may 1943 with 2960 kg), 6542 (august/2992 kg, 5.4 min/5000 km, and this not so bad performance with many defects in description), 6631 (september/2986 kg), 7166 (februar/2983 kg), all with similar performances... well, i think, 2963 kg - start of production and performance similar with etalon, 2993-30xx kg - further, first problems and defects, 2970-2980 kg - main problems solved, so, average normal performance between etalon and plane with defects ie normal situation for all soviet aircrafts during production... another 6x serie (no defects, june'43, from HR again) - Quote:
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info from russian historian Stankov - Quote:
another good book about la/lagg with lot of tables with performances, we can see planes of 31 plant with weight around 2962.3-2993 kg and, mainly, normal weight around 2970-2975 kg... thx for SergeyZhuravlev, on english:), laggs 7033, 7043 and 7041... attached table from "TsAGI - samoletostroenye v SSSR 1917- 1945, part 2", with performances of some soviet planes including lagg-3 of 31 plant, which, i think, mainly based on tests what we can read in some sources... attached 2 pages of some books on english, with laggs 6019 and apparently 6066... well... relatively simple research in some open sources (ON ORIGINAL language, with docs, tables etc and for several findings thx to scalemodels.ru again) and we can see what now lagg-3 "66 serie" in fact have not correctly name, weight and performance... in compare for 4.11 - 542 kph at sl (545 max. for REAL lagg from early quality test, no any things like "gespachtelt und poliert", "special treated" etc etc etc), weight 3087.96 kg (extra 100-1xx kg), best turn time 20.19 (extra 1.5 sec), climb... don't know, but i think too low... and, apparently, in game wrong fuel load... about armament, i think, all correctly and i not found any serious confirmations about second UBS... and, in total, just my opinion what we need - apparently, 2 laggs of late series - first, for example "lagg-3 6x serie" with around 545 kph at sl/5.4 min at 5000 m/18 sec at 1000/296x kg, and second "7x serie" with 53x/5.6/19/299x or even 30xx, ie 2 different planes with max. level of differences of performances which based on real quality tests of real planes... it's in ideal and just sample... other way - only one average lagg-3 maybe of 66 serie with performance from attached table, just, i think need to correct weight (2970-2975 kg)... but personally i prefer first variant because it's historically and better for varied gameplay, but without any serious changes ie easy to do... and, just attached 2 not bad pics... |
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some interesting and actual findings about la-5/7...
about canopy of la-5fn and la-7 - "canopy can be fixed in front, rear and average position"... we know what when canopy open it's -15-18 kph, but, apparently, pilot could fix canopy in average position ie WITHOUT serious loss of speed and tropical heat in cabine... real view of rear bulletproof glass of, at least, la-5fn and la-7 from "technical description of la-7" (confirmed in "t.d. of la-5fn")... about new front bulletproof glass and new tail wheel of la-7 from "technical description of la-7" - "solid front bulletproof glass... folding on earth and loss in flight of tail wheel now impossible" - ie not how here and maybe sometimes like in attached photo of czech? la-7... about new stvorki (on english, it's, apparently... "leafs"... or "casements"...) of la-7, on sides of engine, and loss of speed i wrote before... about conditions of "tropical heat" in cabine... Quote:
from special tests of defected la-7 - Quote:
and i just remind real speeds of best serial la-7 which found - speed on nominal power, 582 kph at sl (or even 587 ie la-7 s.n. 38101364), on forsazh - best + from forsazh, 39 kph - ie can be 621 kph at sl (speed of prototype, on nominal, 597 kph at sl, of etalon for production - apparently, 590)... ie my theory only confirmed... and attached table with one of confirmations, in some sense, of 10 min of forsazh for, at least, la-7 (more, with great docs and about m-82s, later) and table with just normal performances of soviet fighters 43-45... for la-7 was taken performance of plane with serial number 38102663 ie 663 or 63 plane of 2 or 26 serie of 381 plant, which was produced in may'45 and was armed with 3 b-20... |
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about "gargrot", if someone not understood yet, few pics - here carcass of yak and little part of upper gargrot, here, here and here just yaks in different condition, and last example - bf 109 on background of yak-3 ie here you can see another design of fuselage...
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for a start about la-5/la-7 and just important because planes of BoS...
personally i for a long time think over next interesting puzzle, or mystery, or just thing about number of ammunition for la-5/la-7... it is considered what some first lag-5 (or lagg-5, don't know, but in docs personally i saw all names) and maybe la-5 (from previous link from very interesting book - lagg-5 became called la-5 or "lavochkin-5" after приказ НКАП 683 in 8 sept'42) had 400-440 shells in total, further 340 and starting from la-5f with low fuselage all planes had 340 shells, but in book of Yakubovich i saw interesting drawing with ammo boxes of lag-5 with 500 shells in total (attached)... in very interesting "техническое описание самолета ла-5 с мотором м-82, часть первая, общие данные и вооружение самолета", 1942 have number of shells for la-5, 340 in total, and very similar picture of ammo boxes, but without "250" (attached)... attached some pics with ammo boxes of serial aircrafts, well, i think boxes were not changed... ie, apparently - if boxes really were not changed - 170 shells for each shvak can be something like theoretical capacity of boxes, or weight limit (well, constant struggle for weight reduction, in end'42-early'43 especially), or just standard limit of ammunition for all planes (unnecessary shells ie pilot can be shot down faster than ammo end), or some technical details, for example, in this "td of la-5, 1942" (pages 12-13 and 18-19) written what "links of belts discharged in ammo boxes" ("звенья отводятся в эти же патронные коробки") ie it's teoretically can be reason of 340 shells, too, and similar thing have in "technical description of i-185-71" (page 47), where "звенья верхней пушки (250 снарядов в патронной коробке) отводятся звеньеотводом в левую заднюю коробку (где ТОЛЬКО 140 снарядов, в то время как в правой - 170 снарядов)" ie links of upper gun discharged in ammo box of LEFT gun with only 140 shells in ammo box (for example, for right gun - 170), but i-185 it's not la-5, and another type of technical details it's for many types of planes of all countys all time we can see not full ammunition for guns (personally i can't say here any serious reason, why, only weight limit and real need in ammunition)... well, it's all what personally i found, about ammo boxes, in all manuals/descriptions/books and personally i think - only at this moment - 340 shells it's weight limits and standard limit of ammunition for all planes ie real need in ammunition, so, apparently and teoretically, pilots could take more shells if need (for example, free hunt or attack of ground targets) or if wanted (for example, this pilot says what flew with only 80 shells in total), or something like this and in this case, maybe, need to give in game new ammo loads (like "100", "340" and something like "470-480") or new mechanism of choice of loads... or, if i'm wrong, all this just another curious post...:) |
personally i think allowing for different ammo loadouts would be great...
if it is actually true that many russian planes allowed for more ammo, id very much love this option to equip 340 rounds in a yak or la5, given that those planes are basically very tough to get multiple kills in, while a fw190 i can easily get 6+ kills in a single sortie if done right still if it was a historical option and can be added to the game without too much effort id love to have belt configuration of the number of rounds in each belt, preferably for each gun itd be nice to allow for overloading ammo capacity for long missions or ground attack, and then using less(standard loadout) for short range or base defense combat. i say the easiest way to do this is to add a single option of maxed ammo under the loadout such as the "extra ammunition" for the p39 or the p47. it would not be unbalanced and would give the russian planes some more lasting power and not requiring returning to base every 3 kills assuming you can even achieve that many in a online fight which often requires firing at slightly longer ranges and the lag makes life much harder gunnery wise yaks are the biggest issue for me as those have only only one 20mm with barely any ammo, and a useless 12.7mm with just as few rounds. Personally i dont even touch em on limited ammo servers as its just not much fun to return home all the time with no ammo left. LAs are better but still a few more rounds would not hurt. most other planes are imo fine as i16s and laggs have either more ammo or just enough guns to make up for the ammo shortage per gun also just a sidenote, now i do not have any actual source but was the SHVAK so accurate as it is in game? i mean i can actually snipe a plane easily that is within 800m and flying straight, while no other weapon can actually achieve this (hispano, japanese weapons, mgff, mg151, nothing). Also i believe the mg81 is a tad to accurate as its literally a minigun with no spread (which i believe is a tad weak and for some reason has very short range) now i do not have actual data for this so it very well may have been this way irl, but it just feels that these two weps specifically are just unrealistically accurate |
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ok, i survived after this meteorite or rocket or what it was, so, party continues...:)
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well, it's main reasons of my reaserches, i want not empty PR of OM/MG or raving fans, i want reality and normal soviet and other planes... but you not fully understood, 340 shells in total ie 170 for each shvak it's normal, typical ammo load for la-5 and 7, in game 340-400, although i talking about 440-480 in total for las and earlier i written about real confirmed ammoloads for yaks like 32/220 for yak-9t, 135-140/220-240 for yak-1/9, 36/170 for lagg-3 IT etc... and, in fact, i can't understand why DT not did for fw 190a-4 and 5 trommel with 100 shells, and just not corrected number of ammunition, although, if i'm not mistaken, it's not only experimental trommels or unrealistic ammoloads... what can be easier?:confused: especially now... but we again wait these important and absolutely simple things... or i don't know something very secret and important...:) Quote:
and in game really need new mechanism of choice of loads and small changes of construction for planes (for example, rear bulletproof glass for p-39, new canopy for p-47d/51b, mirrors, armor of bf 109f-4 for g-2 etc etc etc), but don't forget about orders, typical ammoloads, supply and other real things ie total free it's absolutely not historically... Quote:
just need to search real examples and thinking... Quote:
although, in fact, yaks have strange "realistic" FM + mainly not historical ammoloads and it's main reason why on these very simple in RL planes we need to fly very correctly... i heard what in 3.04 patch or something like this yaks were very correctly in total, but i not remember these times... and, unfortunately, here we can hopes only on BOS... Quote:
well, i wrote, a long time ago, post about real performance, FM and armament of lagg-3 s4 and other laggs-3 of early series, but found very interesting info about vya-23 for these early laggs, so, post delayed... although, maybe, just useless to write about it here, especially, with my english... and by the way, la-7 with 2 b-20 had 130 shells for each b-20, although full capacity of boxes apparently was 150 for each box... Quote:
and i can also say about reasons what, for example, mg-151-20 it's 20×82 shell and 705 mps (805 only for minengeschoss), shvak it's 20×99R and 750-790, but it's VERY simple comparison without amount of powder in cartridge, type and quality of powder, length of barrel etc... well, it's very complex thing, but even now you can see some of reasons... other guns like hispano, vya-23, mg-ff, personally i think what hispano and vya-23 should be a bit better then now and personaly for me not problem to shooting at 600-800 meters from tempest... Quote:
about range of fire - it's very very important theme too - i remember how read how famous pilot Vorozheikin tried to shoot diving ju-88s with around 1500 meters, in game it's just unreal even on yak-9t... ie your example with mg-81 and others like ns-37/45, vya-23, UB ie powerful guns in compare with range of fire of .50, 37 mm gun of p-39 (63 too?) looks just strange... like and visualisation of hits of HE on ground... in fact, it's my wish for next patch, but at this moment i just don't know all true about fuses for ns-37, so, that's why i don't write about it... well, and since we're talking about shells/belts, attached several pics, where - 1 hurri IIc in UK? personally i see in belts "2 ap - 2 he"... 2 soviet "харитон" IIc, i see only one type of shells, although, maybe, it's "staging" or because of lack of AP at this moment... 3 again, hurri IIc in UK? and again one type of shells like on previous pic... and about shells/belts for yak-9t (later about il-2 with 2 ns-37)... continuation of this post, apparently, need new belts for yak-9t like "только бронебойные снаряды", for AT missions (and this can help with problem of blank hits of HE shells for 37/45 mm) - example - Quote:
in any case, it's just logical... and if this true, need belts like "only HE" at least for first combat tests of yak-9t (f. e. new loadout for something like "yak-9t early" with 520-530 kph at sl) - Quote:
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No idea why people think the UBS is a useless weapon. It's by far the most powerful of the heavy machine guns with superior rate of fire, ballistics, muzzle velocity, and ultimately hitting power. I fire the UBS and ShVAK on the Yak separately. The UBS for precision hitting and the 20mm when I'm in more of a tense dogfight and I'm counting on just one or two shots connecting.
You can score 3-4 kills in a Yak. Just like you can in most other types. But you can't waste bullets and this is a great plane to train you to only make the shots you know you can hit with. Fly the same way in a FW190 and you can walk away with 6, 7...8 kills. |
finally i read this book - Пушки для боевых самолетов, А.Э. Нудельман, 1993 - well, it's just about guns in total, have some interesting details, but no more than "n-37 was tested on yak-9 and serial production started later" ie no any news for us, but, have technical information about ns-37 in total and report about lagg-3...
well, report confirms number of shells, 36, what very logically - 120-140 shells for shvak and 30-32 shells for ns-37, for yak-9, in compare 150-160/36 for lagg-3 - and have information about rate of fire, max. 290 after some shots, min. 232 after some shot, average 258 what confirms technical description of ns-37... personally i think what info enough and it's can be fix already now, especially, because 20 vs 36 it's really difference... |
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now i enevr said the ubs is useless but still for my playstyle it doesnt really work, nor do most mgs. now offline they are fine as its quite easy to get on an ai six, but online i tend to fly hit and run high speed interception then the more common turn fights. i prefer to get in, get a kill or at least cripple a plane, and get out before the 5 or 6 guys in the almost guaranteed furball decide that i make good cannon fodder.
now for hit and run i consider ammo capacity very important as i like to have the option to use attricion and only engage when the situation favors me, the enemy is just climbing to engage me (hes at low speed easy target), or the enemy is preoccupied trying to kill a fellow comrade which i need to save the yaks and most russian planes with their current ammo capacity just dont give me enough staying power to maintain my altitude and take pot shots at those below at high speeds. they just dont let me stay at altitude over the enemy, and force me to either land much more, or not take the slightest risk of missing (again limiting my options as to how i engage the enemy) and as for the italian mgs, i think they are the middle ground. they used to be terrible in 4.09 days (had white tracers and did less damage then a single 30cal would) but now at least have attained my respect as they have shot up plenty of enemies when i ran out of the generous suppply of 20mm in the mc205. Now the weakest i consider to be either the japanese 50cal equivalent and the mg131s. the jap variety has neither much firepower nor great accuracy, and the german ones have just as bad firepower with only teh accuracy being the strongpoint. 50cals are respectable as they are almost always in groups of 4+ giving quantity over quality. UBs are imo the best firepower wise but greatly limited by ammunition capacity. they are great but out of all the HMGs run out the fastest. i know the russian guns realistically had low ammo but if there is a source that says they had more, heck even 50 rounds more id gladly appreciate the additional staying potential for the russian planes now i know people may disagree but this is just my experience playing the game, not really anything based on game files or such but just what i have experienced while in combat for the like 10 or so years ive played this game.... now one interesting thing id like to know is why most russian planes had so few shells? was it a decision based on practice that few pilots would statistically expend so much ammo before either being shot down or returning to base? |
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And the Japanese .50 cal equivalent is a .50 cal IIRC. Quote:
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and what book by nudelman confirms with quote from document, in addition to another document which i posted here before, what lagg-3 with ns-37 had 36 shells for ns-37, instead 20 shells (check again, in 4.09, 22 in fact) in game which correctly only for early laggs with sh-37, which no in game... 2 quotes from two documents from two time periods - just tests'42 and combat tests'43 - it's really research and help and, personally i think, enough for correction what very easy to do and really important, because 16 shells it's almost half of ammoload... plus, in fact, my opinion need to give different belts like "only AP", "only HE", "2 ap - he" and "2 he - 1 ap" or something like this, but at first time, at least, correct ammoload for guns like 36/170 (for UBS, maybe, more, but no info about this)... and sorry, maybe it's my english and type of thinking, but and i all times can't understand where real problem because it's not chinese or russian even now, plus i try to give pics, only some original quotes, and sources... well, let's see what will be next... |
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by the way, about ammunition for il-2s - 300 in total for il-2 with vya-23 it's correct, but in tests, reports and even original manuals for il-2 with shvaks all times 400-420 shells in total... ie apparently 500 it's full capacity of ammoboxes, weight limit or something like this, and typical ammoload around 400, although for il-2 two-seaters with shvaks in tests 500 shells in total... well, i mean, apparently need fix ammoloads for il-2s again... and little about i-185 - in game i-185-71 have performance of etalon ie 600 kph at sl (forsazh), so, apparently for these plane need to do 560 shells in total, MAYBE, because it's need to understand and it's not important at this moment... |
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continuation of this post...
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and interesting, in all tests of planes with m-105p/pa speed at sl with 1100 or 1020 ie for example, speed of serial yak-1 around 470-480 kph at sl can be more? apparently, just need to reread great "yak-1" by Kuznecov... Quote:
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in fact, quality, operation of planes and aerodynamics was even better, for example, for yak-9m new antenna, prop (maybe), maybe even because new ends of wings and have only one reason - фильтр-пылеулавливатель на входе в двигатель - ie filter at air intake against dust etc... my opinion, filter was like for la-7 (attached one of variants) and works similar - Quote:
well, maybe it's answer, but personally i think what it's not can be reason for -15-26 kph at sl and it's just too much for approval of VVS and simple filter... and interesting mention of filter for yak-1 (from "yak-1" by Kuznecov again) - Quote:
so, my opinion at this moment, as before, "518 kph" it's mainly because art-41... or it's speed of one plane of first? serie which was tested in dec'44 (plane could be old/repaired/with some first defects etc)... or error... or just i'm wrong or forgot something, but it's strange, personally for me no any clear answers and reasons why so, and i think we all can only guess or carefully read all what we have... for example, interesting quote about "vish-61p of 9 serie" whish was successfully tested in april'44 on yak-9-37 ie yak-9t, and yak have 544 kph at sl, and in end "suitable for installation on yak with ns-37" - Quote:
explanation can be in following report, but personally i not have this document - Quote:
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and just about ammunition for yaks - simple logical chain - yak-7b with high gargrot, m-105pa or m-105pf, had shvak (120 shells) + 2 UBS (left - 260 rounds, right - 140)... yak-7DI ie prototype of yak-9 had motor-cannon and LEFT UBS with recommended ammunition 140/240 ie similar with yak-1b of late series (135-140/220-240)... plus, yak-9t could have 32/220 and 120+220 for yak-9d from справочник основных данных самолетов'45... so, i think yaks-9 really had around 140+240 shells/rounds max., less it's restrictions for some reasons (weight, typical ammoload for all etc)... well, or i'm wrong in something... and just about yaks, need in addition to correctly front bulletproof glass (and maybe new rear glass), important things like "бензиномер" ie fuel gauges on wings, "солдатик" ie landing gear indicators on wings, mirror, window for release of cartridges, and other little things... |
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So... LaGG-3 IT with its 37mm has 20 rounds and it should be 36. I think I've got it. And 170 rounds for the UBS. Adjustable ammo belts would be amazing but it would also be a huge job. Still I'm sure it's possible with enough effort in research and coding to make it happen. |
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in fact, about ammunition for lagg-3 it, personally i'm saw only these 2 quotes from 2 documents, apparently, better could be only in clear original documents, which are in archives, or some serious peoples have some other reports... Quote:
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about props for yak-9, it's was very old post:mrgreen: and now i remembered about "temporary technical description of aircraft yak-9", 1944 (approved on 27 may 1944, signed in print, apparently, on 7 july 1944), well, manual clearly says what vish-61p it's for yak-9, vish-105vs it's for yak-9 with ns-37...
but, in fact, apparently it's just details, because and before all types of yaks had around 535 kph at sl and more... and what interesting, manual have clearly information about fuel load and oil load of yak-9d ie yak with 4 fuel tanks and special oil tank, full fuel load - 480 kg (310 in 2 "average" tanks, 170 in 2 "extreme" tanks, in total 480), oil load - 34 kg (oil system it's 14 kg ie 48 in total)... so, for example, yak-9m with full weight 3095 kg (max. weights which i saw it's 3117 kg, min. 3050 kg), as typical front fighter (- 170 kg of fuel and, apparently, - around 10-15 kg of oil) have around 2910 kg, in comparison with first series of yak-9 in 42-43 which had around 2875 kg (around 18.5 sec of turntime) instead around 2835 of prototype (16-17)... well, apparently, better aerodynamics and quality can give for yak-9m with around 2900 kg around 16-17 sec of turn time, plus, in end'44 vk-105pf2 gives for plane extra HPs, so... hmmm... wow......... but, it's only very simple calculations... |
honeslty after giving it a try i will say that im getting better with the very low ammo load
its just so tough to last a while online when you have to stick to very close range shots which often miss id say german planes are much better at sustained zoom tactics...... but then again as mentioned before russian planes were more escort and or defense and not free hunt like i like to fly also the mgs are actually a bit better then i always anticipated, i have actually got a few spits with very high deflection angles (close to 90degree), so i will say they are alot more respectable then i had previously believed them to be still 190s and anything armored is a pain in the arse to kill without cannons........maybee someone here has an idea how to kill em without gambling for luckshots with the single UBS |
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some findings etc...
ONE of confirmations - 29:53 - yak-9t and only one type of shells, apparently, APs... and, by the way, just about shells for guns... hispano - 20x110, HE-shell - 130 g in total, around 10 g of explosives... right? well, of course, better than shvak what personally i and see in game... VYA-23 - 23x152, HE-shell - 201/15.6 - ie more explosives, almost like in minengeschoss if 18 g it's correctly, more weight ie more fragments which can damage pilot/fuel etc (it's fragment with weight around 5 g) and could be more fragments which can damage design of plane (it's fragment with weight around 20 g)... well, and personally i can't say what vya really better than hispano... or difference very little (like and with shvak vs hispano)... or i'm mistaken... pilot talks about repaired la-5 without sliding part of canopy, because pilot accidentally dropped this... i think plane really could flew without canopy (f. e. no new canopy for repair at moment of sortie) and, maybe, for fun need to do this like for german planes... oh, and he talks about polished la-5fn... well, some soviet pilots/regiments really no had too much combat sorties, so, i think it's could be not too rare cases, but and not really mass practice... my opinion, it's could be something like around 575-585 kph at sl of normal plane + 5-10... well, all this another explanation why in RL especially:) russian planes had very different performances (here interesting photo, look at wing and again, how looks front bullet proof of la-5fn)... about ammunition and ammo belts for cannons of all il-2s... for example, vya-23 and shvak were not AT guns, and can destroy only light and some middle tanks (or some tanks in some places), but HE/HEI shells of these guns for example can't destroy locomotive in train, so - apparently, because i don't have documents and use only logic, some photos and rumors - belts could be very different and depends on type of targets... if main target was front line/infantry/AA guns/trucks etc ie soft targets, in ammobelts main type was HE-shells or only he-shells, if targets were not soft targets like trains/tanks/251s etc, especially in 41-43, could be like "mainly AP" or something like this... shvak was not so powerful, so, apparently il-2s with shvaks could have mainly or only he shells in ammo belt... il-2s with ns-37, apparently, had belts like il-2s with vya-23... so, my opinion, need to do this and i think what old system of loads does not comply with requirements of historicity and gameplay... attached some examples (1, vya-23 and only HE shells, 2, can't understand, 3, wooden box with inscription "23 мм ОЗ" and really HEI shells)... here just how looks belt with AP shells for ns-37... here oruzheyniki s lentoy (apparently, 1 ap - 1 he), here apparently la-5 (1 he - 3 ap), here mainly HEs, here very interesting ammo belt of captured il-2 with vya-23 (personally i see APs and only one HE), here captured il-2 with shvaks (personally i see only HEs), here captured il-2 with different rockets (not sure, maybe, different fuses), here il-2 in 41-42 with something like m-13/rofs-132, here just how looks vya-23 in wing, here another captured il-2, here just il-2 with rockets, here mainly/only HEs, here only? HEs/HEIs, here different shells for shvak, here different shells for ns-37 (sometimes, 3 APs or HEs), here only or mainly one type (HEs?), here something like 3 AP - 1 HE?, here or here mainly AP shells, here can't understand, here only? APs (looks like il-2 two-seater with am-38f and new roketnye orudiya), here apparently mainly APs, well, and it's all what i found at this moment only in some sources... and, just interesting pics with il-2, here il-2 in flight (look at fairing of landing gear, here, better quality), here rs-132 "short", here attack of il-2... |
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Plus for tank busting the 23mm is noticeably more capable on rear armor decks on light and some medium tanks than the smaller 20mm cannons. |
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Wasn't the Lagg-3 armed with VYA-23 the plane where the pilot was able to substitute guns for brakes?
The story I heard was that the plane's brakes failed on landing, so the pilot improvised by shooting his guns. The recoil was sufficient to slow the plane before he ran out of runway. The story sounds too good to be true, but it could be real. Certainly, in IL-2 the VYA-23 is absolutely deadly as a bomber killer. For dogfighting, not so much, since the rate of fire is slow and the bullet trajectory and/or speed is very different from other weapons. |
well, apparently, i'm was really mistaken...:) and forgot what maybe need more power of explosives for destroy of heavy shell...
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Indeed... perhaps the 45mm armed Yak-9 but I doubt anything else would do it.
IL-2 does model the recoil effect on the ground, I'm not sure how realistically, but you can slow the plane down by firing your guns. The effect is negligible compared to the friction of the grass.... but I suppose with the extra large cannon it might make a big enough difference to matter. |
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and in fact, i read lot of mentions about recoil on land/in air, but now can remember only what written about yak-9t one of best soviet aces, Vorozheykin - Quote:
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that interesting and funny, only now i saw this page and found what sometimes i just repeated (with help of peoples from many forums/sites, of course) findings and what written in total by Alex Ruchkowsky...
in fact it's good because 2 similar opinions it's very indicative, we on right way... highly recommend to read this page, especially, because it's already on english and no reasons to some my bad translations further, i will only add some information and want to focused on armament/performance... (by the way, in addition to old drawings from 2010 on this site, if DT will do/fix 3d model of laggs, here apparently last and best or one of best - at this moment - drawings for this good deal)... and just for fun, official report about NS-37, plus, attached some pics, on 1 belt with 20 mm shells for yak (i see 1 AP - 1 HE) and apparently, another good confirmation of belting-theory, belt with 23 mm shells for il-2 (i clearly see 3 AP - 1 HE or HEI)... oh, and i remembered about one of, apparently, confirmations of weight of yak-9d as front fighter ie around 2900 kg (310 kg of fuel, around 20 kg of oil), well, here interesting document and description of plane for tests with 2880 kg... |
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and i heard before that DT interested in la-5, well, he have similar drawings and for la-5 of early series ie la-5 with fuselage of lagg-3 (in game now 3d model of, if i'm not mistaken, la-5 of around 1-4 series, with mixed performance of 1-8,9 and 9,10-xx series), but, apparently, at this moment no full version in one archive... and, in fact, i again highly recommend for all who want know more, see all these pics...;) |
in offline long time i trying to write what found about il-2s, but, oh, this is so hard for one and ordinary guy like me, so, at this time, only about il-2 with 2 ns-37...
performance from compare 4.11 - weight 5732.96 kg (in tests, weight with full load, ie apparently 100 kg of bombs, around 6160 kg), 399 kph at sl (in first, apparently, tests speed around 387-391, but in game it's can be speed of late series) etc, just now personally i don't have full data... weapons - prototype had and was tested with 60 shells for each ns-37, and 200 kg of normal bomb load, serial planes had 50 shells for each ns-37 and 100 kg (normal) or 200 kg (overload) of bomb load, and - apparently - never not had any rockets, and although info about this different, personally i not saw any photos with rockets and think at this moment what planes really not had rockets... ie 2 cannons under wings + more weight = only bombs... so, apparently, loads for il-2 with ns-37 can look like 100 shells in total as default - personally my opinion, repeat, need and different ammobelts - 120 as prototype (for fun), plus something like 2xfab-50, 4xfab-50, 2xfab-100, some light bombs like ao-xx and ptabs=200 kg max... (maybe, DT can do for fun experimental il-2 with ns-45, as new load for il-2 with ns-37 or new plane, if i'm not mistaken, it's easy because plane just had new cannons (although, of course, in ideal need to do and all problems of ns-37/45)... and il-2 with ns-37 never not had wings with "стрелка" (or "крыло стрельчатой конструкции") - постановление ГКО № 4554сс, 13.11.1943, "Об установке на самолетах Ил-2, выпускаемых заводом № 30 НКАП, пушек Волкова-Ярцева калибра 23 мм вместо пушек ОКБ-16 калибра 37 мм" - ie in nov'43 resolution about production of il-2 with vya-23 instead ns-37 because cannon was not really effective by several technical and other reasons... another quote just about стрелка - "Как следует из документов, завод № 18 вышел на плановый уровень производства Ил-2 с металлическим крылом "со стрелкой" лишь к июню, а 1-й и 30-й заводы - к сентябрю 1944 г. Всего к концу года в ВВС поступило 7377 Ил-2 "крыло со стрелкой". При этом авиазаводы № 1 и № 30 выпускали самолеты и с металлическим, и с деревянным крылом. Все самолеты имели "стандартное" для 1944 г. наступательное вооружение: пушки ВЯ, пулеметы ШКАС, "эрэ-сы" и бомбы. Пушки НС-37 на них никогда не устанавливались." etc, although need more information, apparently, could be exeptions or something like this... well, and in very interesting "справочник по самолету ил-2, 1944", which recently was posted here, was confirmed information about 150 rounds for VUB-3 with UBT of il-2 two-seater (in game all il-2s have 200)... |
in addition to wish with il-2 with ns-45, if..., was tested plane with 100 shells in total...
i wanted to write about this later, in context of yak-7b with m-105pa, laggs'41 etc, but need too much time for all this things, so, i will start it now... well, here we have interesting project, with several documents about VVS which can be very useful and one of most interesting docs at this moment, i think, it's "альбом по дальности и продолжительности полета самолетов" (dated 1943, but, in fact, last plane was tested in end'45)... only some findings - page 11, yak-9 of 155 plant with 4 fuel tanks (673 ltr of fuel) and weight 3035 kg, was tested in july'42... looks like prototype of yak-9/yak-9d ie yak-7d... apparently, it's could be another confirmation of normal weight of yak-9d... page 12 - serial lagg-3 of 153 plant with sn 871 ie apparently 71 plane of 8 serie, 5 fuel tanks (452 ltr) and 3150 kg, was tested in august'42... apparently, it's one of last planes of 153 plant, similar with 7-xx series of 21 plant... and just quote about other lagg-3 of 153 - Quote:
page 22 - serial il-4... well, i'm know about bombers too little, but here in loads i see interesting things like 6 load - 1xfab-1000 + 2xfab-500 + 6xfab-100 = 2600 kg of bombs with limited fuel... Сита, это то о чем ты читал и хотел найти подтверждение?;) page 26 - serial il-2 with max. weight 6360 kg, was tested in feb'43... well, what very interesting here, it's 2 load - 6xfab-100 + 4 rs-82, and 3 load - 2xfab-250 + 4 rs-82... apparently, if it's really true, loads could be included in game... page 31 - serial la-5fn with sn 39210367, 3 fuel tanks (460 l) and 3300 kg, was tested in july'43 and what interesting here it's, apparently, confirmation of normal weight of la-5fn=3290-3300 kg in compare with 3320-3340 of some planes (ie, in this case, in game really NOT la-5fn type 41 or just 1944)... by the way, other confirmation of 3290-3300 kg (quote from "Отчет об испытаниях самолета "Лавочкин-5" с мотором М-71 N 39210204") - Quote:
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page 34 - just another lagg-3 of 31 plant, with sn 6672 (ie it's really famous 66 serie), with 3 fuel tanks (400 l) and 3023 kg, was tested in dec'43... page 36 - serial il-2 with ns-37 and max. weight 6150 kg, was tested in nov'43... i think, it's good confirmation of my last post (6160kg=100 kg of bombs and no any rockets)... page 38 - serial yak-9d with sn 0715306, 4 ft (645 l) and 3120 kg, was tested in feb'44... well, apparently it's one of first serial planes for tests, and it's why weight=3120... page 56 - serial il-10, was tested in may'45... i saw here debates about 2xfab-250 for this plane, well, 4 load - 2xfab-250 + 100 kg of other bombs... etc etc etc including many bombers, several lend-lease and captured planes... |
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Regarding the weight, I agree, 3320-3340 kg is too much, but in my opinion, it should be between 3300-3320, like all examples in NII VVS tests. |
another interesting document - альбом "основные работы новосибирского филиала института летных исследований, выполненные в I полугодии 1942 года"...
page 2 - "improvement of flight data of yak-7" (1942)... in fact it's illustration, for example, of text from Stepanec or other documents which i reading, about aerodynamic changes'42 (shows etalon performance of yak-7(b) m-105pa, in compare with plane before changes, ie around 470 vs. 495 kph at sl) plus noted what gives forced m-105 with 1040 mm (plane showed 520 kph, although, pf in all sources have 1050, so, could be LITTLE more)... page 3 - "improvement of flight data of lagg-3" (1941)... well, looks like experimental lagg-3 with sn 31211062 and 490 kph at sl vs. lagg-3 with 3121715 and 457 from this table (later about this)... other works, mainly, for interest and have no practical meaning... |
last or one of last useful documents, "Сравнительная таблица летно-тактических данных серийных самолетов «Томагаук», МиГ-3, Як-1 и ЛаГГ-3.", with several performances of soviet-LL planes'41-42...
some notes - mig-3 looks like serial mig-3 am-35a with serial number 3943, slats and reduction 0,732, further original quote with more full performance (in other quotes about 3943 i saw 300 rounds for ubs) - Quote:
yak-1 it's serial yak-1 m-105p of 292 plant with sn 0511 - Quote:
lagg-3 it's, apparently, lagg-3 m-105p (pa?) with sn 3121715 (noted what "water cooler full closed") - Quote:
about p-40 i know not so much, be better if someone else compare this performance with full us/uk datas - moreover, in 4.12 new FMs for these early planes too, right? - but what i see - in 4.11 p-40c has 20.01 sec at 1000 m, in report 18, but speed more conservative... |
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i think that now finally understood, how much speed lose la-7 with full open oil cooler and side doors (apparently, in all tests of all la-5/7/9/11 blinds after prop were open) - because found here, in table 7, serious error...
la-7 with full closed oil cooler=already 40 mm and full closed side doors=already 73 mm, it's correctly, how and all info about oil cooler, but in original documents just NO positions of doors, bad quality of scan (attached this page 15), only speeds - 488...487...480.5...4x7.5 (looks like 467.5) - ie apparently with full open side doors la-7 lose 20.5 kph and not how i'm assumed previously, 9 in total... in "techical description of la-7", page 154 - "Максимальному открытию створок соответствует их ход на 80 мм от крайнего закрытого положения. В крайнем закрытом положении створки не выступают за пределы обводов наружного капота. Для выхода воздуха и выхлопных газов боковая створка поставлена с некоторым повышением над задней боковой крышкой капота таким образом, что образуется постоянная щель." - ie 73 mm (it's constant crack and doors do not create resistance, attached photo) + doors can be opened on 80 mm=153, site gives max. 136 and min. 73, don't know why 136... on picture can also see, if i'm not mistaken, and new sides of hood for planes after start of production (quote from tests of 45210139) - "Самолет, предъявленный на испытания, отличался от самолета эталона 1944 года, проходившего государственные испытания в ГК НИИ, следующими изменениями, влияющими на аэродинамику: ...8. Укорочены боковины капота, прикрывающие крайние выхлопные патрубки." - look at 2 last exhaust pipes, top and bottom, and for comparision attached pic with la-5 etalon 1944 (but changes can be inside and this is only my theory)... in total, personally i think what 73mm as default it's almost similar with settings "по потоку" for old side doors, now for better cooling (with more easy managment of engine? looks like fw 190a) + because new doors and oil cooler really were much better than old, loss of speed was not so much (20.5+8.5=29 in compare with 45-50 for la-5fn)... confirmation about oil cooler from G. Serov - "Так было показано, что расположение маслорадиатора под фюзеляжем (за 5-м шпангоутом) в специально спрофилированном туннеле снижает его лобовое сопротивление в 2 раза и обеспечивает расход воздуха через радиатор на 25-30% больший, чем при серийном варианте." - resistance of oil cooler became lower in two times and through cooler passes more air on 25-30 percent... well, sorry for MY mistake...:) ...and that finally understood why in tables from Stepanets, and thus in many other sources, yak-9k and yak-9m have worst performance than early planes, well, just looks like that it's incredible mix of all planes and 518 kph at sl/6.5 min etc it's numbers from performance of yak-9t with 4 fuel tanks (not serial yak-9td or prototype of yak-9k) with around 32xx-3270 kg... for example, about prototype of yak-9k with 4 fuel tanks - "Из-за увеличения полетной массы максимальная скорость Як-9К по сравнению с Як-9Т уменьшилась у земли - на 2...15 км/ч и на высоте 5000м - на 40...27 км/ч; время набора высоты 5000 м увеличилось до 6,5 мин (на 1,0 мин);" - ie because extra weight, in compare with yak-9t this plane was slower on 2-15 kph at sl and had +1 min to time of climb to 5000 m... well, 533-15=518 and 5.5+1=6.5... but 533 (average speed of t/d in 43) - 15 kph it's strange, looks like that it's various quality, error, calculation etc... 533 - around 5-7 (more weight and another aerodynamics)=524-528 ie little less than average speed of yak-9d/t/7b in 43... about yak-9m PVO (in table with weight 3116 kg) - "Полетная масса Як-9М ПВО снизилась за счет уменьшения запаса горючего с 480 до 420 кг, масла с 45 до 30 кг, снятия брони - 16 кг и осуществления других более мелких мероприятий." - 3116 + 60 kg of fuel + 15 kg of oil + 16 kg of armor etc = at least 3207 kg of yak-9m as td version - 150 kg (in fact, 147.2) of difference between yak-9 with 2 fuel tanks and yak-9t = 3060 kg, almost normal weight of yak-9d/m with 4 fuel tanks... etc, with yaks-3 similar situation, 570 kph at sl of normal plane and 21 sec at 1000 of bad plane, although, it's not news... |
very good news for all adequate lovers of soviet planes, and especially for those who know language:)...
well, personally i long time not check this forum, although, meantime there recently were posted lot of FREE and very interesting soviet documents - many thanks to people who did this for us - including - 1 features of piloting of pe-2, 1943 (can be useful for tuning of FM)... 2 technical description of la-5, part 2, 1943 (looks like continuation of famous part 1, and i think, at this moment, that it's mainly for interest)... 3 armament of la-7, 1945 (looks like that i saw this before, if not mistaken, most interesting it's only confirmation about 390 shells in total, as official load, for la-7 with 3xb-20)... 4 technical description of lagg-3, part 2, 1941 (looks like just description, without most interesting parts about performance/weapon)... 5 technical description of boston III, A-20B and A-20G... and following documents can be interesting for many peoples because it's - 6 test of c-46a... 7 ground test of captured "Р-100" ie ki-46 with HA-112 (looks like that in something could be useful for japanese planes)... 8 test of me-109 g 2 № 14513... plus some information about u-2/po-2, tb-3/7, mig-1/3, ps-84/li-2, go-145a, r-5, ant-9, su-2, db-3f, SB, some tests of p-39q-10/hurricane IIc etc... |
nice source
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Keep it coming 1984. All good stuff! So few are willing to try and document the details. I imagine at some point the Russian aircraft will be given a thorough look over... and this stuff helps.
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and even if in my last post not so much about performance/weapon/technical details, at least, has rare photos, drawings etc with very good quality...:mrgreen: generally speaking, some documents which i found in last time can be researched for BOS, i thought about this before and if this - original photo from report, maybe, to some extent it's really true... and in any case, i think that 1CGS can help or, at least, hope no will be any bans for old "il-2" like with channel map etc, although personally i don't mind than focusing on other periods or even on other countrys (for example, early laggs'41 or several new models of i-16 etc or p-39/a-20/p-51 for many players)... by the way, at this moment, from free sources i collected many descriptions of defects, problems etc of soviet planes... of course, it's not only for soviet planes, and firstly need to think how it's can be realised - i just remembered these fuzes with defects in 4.10 or 11 as default ie without choice... maybe, not bad idea it's new option, something like "historical mode" with selected, neatly made several most common defects which can't be included in various performances of planes etc? although, here need lot of precious time, efforts and much more researches of really knowledgeable people, moreover, just different performances with 531 +12/-9 for yak-7b 1943, for example, can be enough... |
oh, exactly, confirmed here... i saw only now, seriously...:) well... hope, 1CGS will post later materials about lagg-3 s29, for example, although looks like that it's again test of stability and controllability of aircraft, so, for understanding really need to know language, carefully reading ie it's mainly "developer's stuff" for tuning of FM... nevertheless, it's interesting for many peoples and sometimes, very...
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i hope on that forum sometime can be found something about MBR-2 or Su-2 ..
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побираемся, помаленьку, инфой из Резниченко - "таблица 1.63 варианты вооружения боевых самолетов ввс ркка и ввс красной армии ракетными снарядами калибров 82 и 132 мм в период с 1930 г. до середины 1940 г. (тип и марка самолета... калибр ракетной системы/боезапас... тип/кол-во ракетных орудий... место расположения пусковых)... и-15... 82/6... пс-82/2... под нижним крылом... (i-15 with 6xrs-82 under wings) и-16 тип 10... 82/6... пс-82/2... под консолями крыла... (i-16 type 10 with 6xrs-82 under wings) и-16 тип 24... 82/8... ро-82/8... под консолями крыла... (i-16 type 24 with 8xrs-82 under wings) лагг-3... 82/6... ро-82/6... под консолями крыла... (lagg-3 with 6xrs-82 under wings, here typical plane with rockets, and in game for s4 only experimental variant with 8xrs-82)... учебный самолет ут-16... 82/4... ро-82/4... под консолями крыла... (ut-1b with 4xrs-82 under wings, i written about this before) штурмовик р-5... 132/6... /6... на верхнем крыле... (attack plane R-5 with 6xrs-132 on upper wing) штурмовик р-6... 132/6... пс-132/2... под нижним крылом... (attack plane R-6 with 6xrs-132 under wings) сб (вариант истребителя пво)... 132/6... пс-132/2... под консолями крыла... (SB as PVO-fighter with 6xrs-132 under wings) сб... 132/8... пс-132/2... под консолями крыла... (SB with 8xrs-132 under wings, see below) сб... 82/16... пс-82/4... под консолями крыла... (SB with 16xrs-82 under wings, see below) дб-3... 82/16... пс-82/4... под консолями крыла... (db-3 with 16xrs-82 under wings, most likely, were used 2-4 or something like this, although...) ил-2... 132/8... ро-132/8... под консолями крыла... (il-2 with 8xrs-132 under wings=il-2 one-seater 41-43) ил-2... 132/4... ро-132/4... под консолями крыла... (il-2 with 4xrs-132 under wings=il-2 two-seater 42-45) ил-2... 82/8... ро-82/8... под консолями крыла... (il-2 with 8xrs-82 under wings=il-2 one-seater 41-43 and most likely some il-2 two-seaters 4x, and were field mods with 8xrs-82 + 8xrs-132 in 42 - ie, maybe, need to give for il-2 with 16xrs-82 and this load - 24xrs-82 and more rockets in 42 and 44-45, plus rockets to fire back in at least 41) истребитель танков миг-3... 132/4... ро-132/4... под консолями крыла... (tank buster mig-3 with 4xrs-132 under wings, really can be true because has many mentions about this and, for example, it's could be first combat tests of rbs-82/132 in 41-42 in company with il-2/lagg) истребитель танков и-153... 132/4... ро-132/4... под нижним крылом... (tank buster i-153 with 4xrs-132 under wings, can be pre-war projects, like i-153 with shvaks and 2-4 UBS or i-16 type 29 with 4xrs-132)" etc, sometimes looks like experimental loads, and attached another page from Reznichenko (для ППС - for firing forwards, ЗПС - back), and for example here or here more about peshka... here serial captured sb with at least 8 rockets and opinion of Psy06 - "РСы штатное вооружение поздних СБ, пусковые выпускались серийно, в документах это прописано, я даже на одном из коллекционерских форумов видел руководство по боевому применению РСов с СБ"... here serial sb with rockets and description of photo - "Есть документы и фото на СБ с РС 253 серии. СБ №5/253 2М-103У №№ 943-944/943-9713. В него на стоянке врезался другой СБ №11/289. Машины из 138 СБАП." (с) МишаТ, etc... even were several home-made aa-rocket launchers:), like here, for example, which sometimes were used... and from here attached interesting photo of i-153 with 8xrs-82 + something like fab-50 or even 100... |
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