Why so little interaction with the community?
 

Why do we get so little communication and interaction from Maddox Games with the community?

I really don't understand. We know there are issues with the game, Luthier has repeatedly said he is not happy with the state of the game.

I just find it so odd that we get so little feedback and input over bugs & issues raised. Every other official sim forum has input from the developers, its important. Bugs get reported with no acknowledge. We get patches with no change logs. Statements of development that never materialise, promises of patches 'very soon', where very soon is 6 months. We have a community manager who can either say nothing or seemingly knows little about CloD.

With supposedly the future of the sim & developers dependant upon the success of a sequel you'd think the team would try and keep its customers somewhat engaged. Its just so baffling and counter productive to future sales. It is certainly putting me off any future purchase from Maddox Games.

I'd love this series to be a success, but for the love of god Maddox Games seem to be their own worst enemy.

I think there maybe an annoucement coming very soon as to the future of CLOD and its sequel, i.e. what direction its going to go in, its possible that the Dev's are just waiting for the 'green light' before an update can be given.

Sarcasm?

Sure there was talk of an announcement in June.. never happened.

There was a change log due after the last patch, never happened.

There where features removed and fixes required that would take a '3 days for this 3 days for that'.. never happened.

A questions & answers sessions, questions to be answered at the end of the day.. never happened.

Just to name a few of the things that they have communicated to us about off the top of my head. Its just all so disappointing, i don't mind deadlines slipping, plans changing etc etc.. but just keep us in the picture!

Simply communicating with the community would make such a difference, and it is so easy to do. A 20 word post takes a minute to write at most. You'd think they could spare us 5 minutes a week to keep us on side. All very odd.

Yes I agree, but in 'the old days', they had the right idea:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=34559

Sadly it seems they had been reading "Great Expectations" and we believed it :(

Hopefully 'soon' we'll get some answers ro the 150 questions asked, maybe if we are lucky they'll amswer one-per-week and make us appreciate the effort they put in to community realations!

MP

It's really very simple: they have nothing to tell us.

We all know about CloDs shortcomings and they have to meet a milestone for the new project, so they can't do anything for CloD right now. Why waste time restating the obvious?

They will start to talk to us again when they can anounce the new project.

and after all questions are answered only 2 weeks until the release of the patch.

there was initial communication in the forum here, but with the torrent and volume of complaints after the initial CoD release18 months ago they have been a bit overwhelmed by the "feedback" :)

since then a handful of perpetual whiners and psychopathic trolls who camp here have even been bitching at whatever is positive about the sim as it has been gradually fixed, so it stinks up the forum and doesnt really create an environment for positive interaction

Very true, sadly.

There have been any number of moments in the past where they have announced a new commitment to "constant updates" (oleg's words, not mine).
These usually result in great rejoicing by the community for a brief moment. However these announcements have usually been the harbinger of long, protratcted and obstinate silence form the devs. They don't seem to have the commitment to follow through on these sort of things. Perhaps they just don't care or do not have the experience to understand how important it is. I get the impresion that Luthier, much more than Oleg, does not particularly like the community or his product's customer base. Whenever he has referred to us, it has been with some disdain and a sense that we are an unpleasant nuisance to his circular development cycle.

If you walked into a shop and was treated by the shop workers the way this lot interact on here the shop would be shut in no time.
Stop blaming people for complaining ,it is the only way you can get your message out that things are wrong.
If the product was ok then there would be no need to complain.
I bought the game knowing my computer would'nt run it because i hoped it would be mended and then i could spend the money upgrading the computer.
I bought in good faith of a positive interaction and development but alas :(

It's a downward spiral now which may even have started the instant the game was released in such a poor state.

A lot of the "whiners" really really want a fixed game but make their feelings known. The developers don't respond, maybe because of language issues, lack of common sense or fear of another backlash, so they get it in the neck for not responding. When there is a response it is often incomplete, wildly optimistic or just false (for the same reasons as above) and so the whole cycle takes a downwards lurch.

What is really needed is an amnesty on the part of the forum members combined with a regular update or dialogue from the developers. In the past I've advocated a simple, locked, update thread even if it is just to report that they're still working on something. Really that won't happen now because the only update will be that the latest patch will be made official sometime, then wait for the sequel whatever format that is to take given that it hasn't been announced yet...

Lots of whining about very little then. I'm a whiner yet I'll buy the sequel if only because I live in hope that I'll get to fly the BoB without too much heartache.

Hood

I kinda like how other sims have taken to Facebook and Twitter. No time for a Friday update? No problem, just post one new screenshot during the middle of the week. It takes 2 seconds, and we will lap it up. Or dropping hints on stuff. It gets people excited.

iRacing does this, Train Simulator, War Thunder.

I have the same feeling. Let's try to understand their logic lying behind such consideration.

Right now the sales of CloD per time unit has drpped down to a steadily low digit. Those who didn't buy CloD before and on its release are not likely to ever buy it, after seeing how disapointing the game status and aftersale support have been.

They have eraned all what they could earned. In order to presell as many copies as possible, they even kept sending out falsely optimistic information regarding the status of game development to the eagerly waiting community.

With that amount of money, though far from satisfactory, they initially attempted to fix this game, in hope of persuading those waiting custumers, who still held their money in hands, to take their moves.

But the development was not going as smoothly as they originally thought. They spent too much time and resources without getting equivalent outcome. And the market price of the game dropped quickly. It became more and more pointless to continue that attempt, since even if the game is finally fixed, its generated sales (as low as $3 per copy) won't bring them enough profit to cover the expense of the remedial development.

So from a business viewpoint, shifting their development priority to the sequel was obviously right.

Now here comes the most important part. Because 1C has nearly no competitors in the WW2 sim market that can cast threat to them, they don't need to keep us engaged and satisfied. The reasoning behind this is that they are not afraid to lose their customer base, because nobody can steal it, at least for now. They know clearly that as long as they finally get the sequel back on track, those who formerly swore not to buy the sequel will still happily empty their pockets for it.

Sadly, once buyers make their payment, they lost their controlability over the developer. That is why a refund system is essential.

Sent from my Milestone using Tapatalk 2

I've said it again and again, only to be ignored every single time: Luthier is not Oleg. He hates PR and "communication". He'd like nothing better to lock himself and the team up in the office complex, work on whatever project they have on their hands and not be bothered at all by suits with milestones and deadlines and especially not by players wanting to know what's going on.

Neither asking for answers nor yammering about the state of CloD will change that fundamental aversion to PR and communication. He doesn't like it so he's avoiding it whenever possible.

I agree with a lot that has been said...however I'm not solely talking about future work & patchs.

I'm also talking about general interaction about gameplay issues, bugs and the like.

If i post what i think is a bug or a query about how something is meant to work in RoF or DCS forum, generally you will get a response of either a developer or beta tester (i.e someone with some inside knowledge). Here you never get any input or response, ever.

It appears Maddox Games simply has no interest in their product or their customers. It really is baffling.

I sorta get where you are coming from, over the last few months I have gotten the impression that there is not much in the way of passion for this sim. Having talked to a couple Devs over at Eagle Dynamics, they seem passionate about recreating an aircraft, I dont get that here, It feels like a job, they work on it during the day and go home and play something else... CloD feels like it is missing heart if that makes any sense...

Dont get me wrong, I still see the potential here, and still think the game has come far in the last while... I just dont feel like the Devs like this sim very much... maybe that will change in the sequel when these guys have more vested in it, I realize that most of them came on to fix others isssues...

What's wrong with doing it that way? If I were him I would do it same way - and additionaly I would close this forum.

Just look at the number of tickets raised i think you.ll find that answers your question :confused:

Im new to this sim and have spent the last three days attempting to get the dam thing operational :evil:

Essef

Bingo!

Additionally you would have no customers for your sequel and you would be out of a job.

IMO from a business point of view, PR & customer support is critical for future sales. I suspect as it stands only a dedicated few will purchase the sequel, certainly not enough to recuperate the loose of CloD and several years the development cost for the sequel.

PMSL.. he said whiners & psychopathic trolls.. i think you might fit into one of those categories ;)

p.s thanks for your usual contribution to the subject, ever enlightening.

Unfortunately I think the days when the complaints and criticism could be laid at the door of a few 'malcontents' have passed. I think the change has come in the last 6 months due largely to the incredibly slow rate of progress and:

I tend to disagree with some who say that Luthier doesn't care about either the game or us. I think his avoidance may be down to sensitivity about how it has worked out and a combination of guilt and shame. He probably feels genuinely bad at the situation and the constant let-downs. There is probably huge stress in the situation too. I feel genuine sympathy for him and the dev team.

But...had to be a BUT :)...there has been so much needless, stupid, inept PR and lack of communication in this whole thing - as seen so perfectly in the recent questions fiasco - that in spite of my desire to see the game improve and to support them, I feel more and more annoyed and angry at the broken promises, lack of any real communication and the general disrespect and lack of care in their attitude.

I can forgive them for the slow progress in the game -issues largely beyond their control. But their attitude to the community has recently moved from inept to downright insulting and even dishonest.

And that is not on in my book.

Personally I think people are just fed up now (possibly from us mug customers and the lack of interaction from dev's), so they are now leaving and only popping in occasionally to see if any mythical patch news (not old promises) has been posted

It's because they've probably realized, finally, that the game, the series and all that is attached to it, is finished. They chose to steer their product head-on against a wall, willingly and knowingly. Now, the invoice seems to be on its way... why still bother then? ;)


P.S.: nm Zapatista... it's just luthier's alias on which he can lash out and swear anonymously! :rolleyes:

Spot on! That's what I'm doing. Nothing left to say really, just waiting and watching for something to happen, anything!

Yep, used to be a time that when i came to 1C forums would always check here first, these days i always check the 1946 forums first, and come here as an after thought to see if by some miracle anything worth while has happened yet.

On the plus side, since TeamD are doing such good work with 1946, not so bothered here anymore.

I've changed the very same behaviour :grin:
Also, TD news makes me happy inside, MG doesn't.

Your welcome! S!

I don't think too many people would dispute that. I suspect Luthier would be far more comfortable and much better suited to running a small team of modders than heading the development of a AAA next-gen title.

I don't want to believe it but what other conclusion is there?

He's in the wrong job if this is true. Love them or loathe them if you ignore your customers they leave you sooner or later. The developers are incredibly lucky to have an almost captive market.

Hood

Yes, but ignoring (or being too busy to have time for them) is one thing. Treating them in this way is another. It is silly, and self-defeating and illustrates incompetence generally.

The reason we dont have the Q and A is simple, Luither ether does not have the answers or he is just too embarrassed to write them down.

maybe I should remind you what is known about this project management: that before being promoted to lead CoD development after Oleg's departure, Luthier leaded Pacific Fighters. Which was almost a fiasco..

Drawn your own conclusions from here.

Luthier was overly criticized for Pacific Fighters. I highly doubt it was Luthier's responsibility to secure the rights to model some of the aircraft, which was one of the biggest setbacks for Pacific Fighters. Luthier started the project by modeling an aircraft carrier, and the project steadily grew enough for a paid addon. They never intended to build the whole Pacific Conflict, as it would have taken too long for a decent monetary return. Most people enjoyed what Pacific Fighters had to offer and it gave community modders a wonderful base to expand the project. People rave about the work of community modders, but they never seem to get, its the developers that made that work possible.

Yup.. Those are the only reasons Luither does not spend more time here answering questions.. LOL

i think its offensive talking not nicely of others

seems people think they can pay into do it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oArDFU_IESQ

Best post ever Raaid! :-P ;)

+1

Good one! :-P

I like turtles

i think the explanation for the lack of readme and a decent manual, and the minimal communication, is rather more simple. its an issue of lack of time and forced priorities

the incomplete/unfinished beta release of CoD was forced by the "money men" who put their foot down after repeated delays and postponements of release dates (going back to 2006). because of the good reputation of the il2 series, sales were initially pretty good and they recouped enough money to allow the project of a series of sequential releases in the SoW series to continue,....but....with CoD having been such a fiasco because it quickly became evident to users and reviewers that there were major prblems, both in poor sales as well as in product reputation and reviews, Luthier was told after 6 months not to continue to pour resources into it and focus on the next project (we have been told this directly)

if luthier does continue to work on CoD, he gets chastised by the bosses and risks the survival of the series (one more fiasco and they are dead, WE are dead), and if he doesnt work on fixes for it he is exposed to the howls of discontent and tirade of abuse in the forum. since the gfx and game engine needs to be fixed for BoM to succeed, we have the benefit of getting the fruits of that labor (and we just did with the beta patch of august 2012 which was a MAJOR improvement for mid and low end pc's, basically it made the game playable), but "content fixes" (other then a few glaring ones that majorly affect functioning of the product, like CTD;s etc..) have not been a priority at all and most efforts were put into BoM.

however frustrating that is for us with the further delays, luthier mentioned in his last post that his team will put one last big effort into fixes for CoD (now that they have reached a milestone in the development of BoM which satisfies the bosses), which is pretty good news for us if we can get him to fix the main issues that affect gameplay and use of CoD (AI commands, LoD visibility, FM and DM issues,...).

How many IL-2 COD pilots are pissed at the developers, but hold back just to be nice...
no way in hell a lot of people would ever consider buying any expansions when the core is b.s. especially the red side... maybe the Russians think Western customers are gullible and stupid...

IL-2 went from the best to ....... well you know.. not good...

If DCS can do good why can't 1C ???

we have a saying,,
S*** or get off the pot..

OK so you s****, will you now please be so good to get of the pot and never return?!

viking

People are voting with their feet as a result. This forum is really quiet these days, last update apart from mine, one any thread, was 30 minutes prior. For a game with such a dedicated community that's pretty crap. Hardline moderation doesn't help either.

To be fair I think the moderation on the forums has been very reasonable of late, I mean they let me back when they certainly didn't have to.

It's consistent at least, but there's no room for banter, and that makes it like a dull classroom.

Yeah even I have to admit the communication of late has been very sub par, and I consider myself a big fan of 1C and of CoD in general, admittedly I haven't played it for about 8 months due to being overseas, but even the state it was in before I left was very playable and enjoyable for me personally.

But this lack of communication from the devs especially after Luither said he'd be back to answer our questions after the last update is very disheartening, not even a reason has been given for the delay, I'm hoping that they're planning to announce something when they do get back to us.

It's actually the first time I've felt let down by them, which is kinda disappointing, fingers crossed it's for a good reason.

This is my fault. I should collect 5-10 old questions and send them to Ilya. But I made new threads and I collected over 200 questions. I don't know when he'll find time for this.

BlackSix, you did your job well selecting 200 questions from all the posts. Ilya would certainly know which are the most urgent (net code, flight models, co-op formats, etc). He could also check the BugTracker to quickly see which items received the most votes to set the priority questions to answer.

I see. Thanks BS.

Don't worry? We're all adults here. Waiting not a problem.

Looking forward to the next update (when it's ready)

Ah fair enough then B6, thanks for the reply, I personally think you've done the right thing here by giving him a bunch of new questions, hopefully with a larger selection he can pickout the ones that are most prudent and important to the community .
Thanks again ~S~

Yeah yeah we get the picture.. He is too busy to communicate with the users of the software he's developing. This just about says it all. :|

After months of silence, nearly 12 months since the last non beta patch and significant bugs remaining who would have imagined the community has a few questions.

To be honest BS we want the new questions answering, just pick 20 questions that are repeated the most, this should take Luthier about an hour or so to do if he really wanted to. 2 weeks after he said he would be back later in the evening is completely unaccepatble. Remind him please that we have waited 19 months so far and the game still isn't half what it should be.

Thanks for your words. B6 and keep up the good work for this great sim.

If Luthier does not have the time to answer the questions, I might suggest that he takes the time to read them at least. I think it would do some good.

Honestly B6 if that's the best that can be done it's just opening this thread up to the harbingers of doom. Sadly I believe I have become one :(

You offered us after (MANY) months the chance to actual actually get answers to the many issues that have been raised. The community again was sparked into life! At-last, a chance to get some actual, proper input from the devs.

What do we get! No answers, too many questions!

Seriously?

The only issue is that this whole fiasco of disrespect for those who really love the IL2 series who again were lured into thinking that we we important to the devs, feel again that we have been lined up for a practical joke!

I can see Luthier rolling on the floor laughing "haha, they actually believed I was going to listen! Too funny! Put the questions in the bin, I have to finish my next practical joke and see who falls for that!"

The only reason the disrespect and disillusionment has swept this forum is from the totallack of interest and apathy apparent from 1c regarding those who actually care to post issues or bugs that need fixing only to hear that the bug tracking isn't even read!

But post your questions regarding the real issues and bugs and Luthier will ignore those too!

If anyone at 1c had bothered to visit these forums, react to the vast input that has ben made, the community wouldn't have had to ask so many questions (that he can't be bothered to answer). They could have been answered over the last 18 months in something called a Friday update?

The total lack of disrespect and apathy on the part of 1C is something I don't believe I have encountered in years of visiting forums.

The main issue now is trust. We are told (wel guess!) that BoM is the next greatest Sim, but why the hell do you expect us to believe that, when 1C can't even be trusted to answer genuine questions regarding software on which people have already spent money?

I don't know if 1C can gain the respect back, once bitten, twice shy!

I can only say as others have, we are all busy, we all have jobs or other things that encroach on our time, but we care bout this product which is why we offer inputand suggestions for making it better.

It's a shame that 1C don't appear to have the same passion for their product as we do and that can only mean they are not interested in anything but the money they get.

If Luthier makes an effort in his busy day to spend just 20 minutes on a Friday (even at home!) like we have done daily for many months then it would be a start, but what makes us think that he will be bothered after his last foray into the forum?

The only issue that has made negativity rage through these threads is the the lack of input after Luthier apparently showed he was interested in the community. The lack of answers has reinforced what many believed, that we'll only be of interest again when he has some more dodgy software to offer from the back of a car!

He needs to answer the questions that we took time to ask to at least start gaining some respect and credibility if he wants us to believe in his commitment to us and our future investment in software he claims is fit for release!

Answers to questions please that were asked and we'll go from there.

Disillusioned, MP

Thx for the comms BS... but aren't you tired to be the fuse of your boss ? As for me, i do not believe a single word from your team. Jumping this forum one time a month is enough to learn that the next patch is coming soon (lol)...

Zapatista said:

Well yes, but if you're in this sort of situation then you recognise the need for a re-jig of priorities. The demands of mile-stones et al remain fairly constant (I've worked in complex software dev)...you still allocate time to do those small things you say you are going to do. Especially when they become disproportionately important to your customers/fans. It's commonsense and silly not to.

No offence, but this sounds like a cut n'paste from the Chivas book of holy supposition. We dont know what went on really, but it's been repeated so long it's become lore round here. Speculation...

Are you sure early sales were good? Figures? By what yardstick? I've heard abut the general situation but don't remember seeing it quoted...?

Is this supposition or fact? Where is the proof of the situation? Luthier may be saying whatever he likes for a variety of reasons (some to quell anxiety etc).
*Surely* one lesson of the past 18 months is not to take anything said at face value? Actions, not words....

Blacksix said:

Not entirely your fault, though distilling the questions down a lot would have helped. If he wants to help, he will.

Answering the questions is one thing. But being seen to give a damn is another. We dont need an expo or thesis on each one, but would quite like just the main points answering. And above that, some willingness to follow through as he said he would.

It's more about goodwill than anything else. God knows the game itself is in enough trouble.

in other words we paid for a game so Luthier is 'our' monkey now and if we want him to jump through hoops he better damn well do it.......or something like that

Totally mate. I've dipped my toe back into 1946 again and it's most refreshing, plus we have responsive devs who care about quality (TD and HSFX team).

maybe not like that :)

but i think that giving a word a least every two weeks is the minimum.

and sincerely.?.. if the work of luthier and his team on CLOD was not so bad....we don't want to have news so regulary...

it is not with a word in the forum every six month that this team will gain the trust of their community.

well who knows miracle may happen..... maybe we'll have an friday's update before the end of this year.....

So Luthier doesnt have time to answer 200 questions (like its 200 different questions, more like 20 in total) fine, that's understandable. The problem however, is that he/whomever decided to skip answering any questions what so ever instead.

Makes perfect sense to me.


I used to be a avid "fanboi" if you will, but now the entire way this is handled pi**es me of to the extreme. Its not because its CloD or IL2 or whatever, a similar situation in real life would have had the exact same affect on me, but 10 times sooner.

Don't you find that sim just a bit to easy?

Well, after 5-10 years practice it would be odd if it wasn't.


The easiest ac in old IL2, i would say, is the P-47, by far. :-P

have you flown it much since 4.11?

huge step forward imo, and the AI is leaps and bounds ahead of CloD's.

I meant to post this earlier....it is silly to scape-goat Luthier or make him the poster-boy...he is just one bit of the whole (messed-up) jigsaw. But equally, it helps to have a single source for complaint/praise....so in that sense he functions as a lightning rod. Anyone with a modicum of commonsense can separate legitimate grievance from personal baiting though. If they can't, then best remove yourself from being accountable entirely.

A personal witch-hunt isn't (or shouldn't be) on the cards.
Equally, it isn't the fault of the critics that the thing is in such a mess. That praise should be heaped wholly on the dev house/publishers. It's much too easy to blame the whole sorry state of affairs on Luthier, and equally, if it should ever turn around, he shouldn't be entitled to all the praise. The whole Messiah-Oleg thing was faintly ridiculous, and embarrassing for all concerned, no doubt. In any case, Luthier has a functioning shield in Blacksix.

But all this personality guff is off the mark and draws attention away from just what an over-all screw-up this game is/was/continues to be.

It doesn't matter who gives some basic answers, provided they are given, don't leap-frog what is asked, and it appear in the same century as the questions hopefully. That still hasn't happened, which is ludicrous. It's not about a sense of entitlement, it's only a bunch of 20 or so questions, once boiled down.

All the personality guff just allows the usual suspects to make it about a supposed witch-hunt, and once again derail perfectly legitimate questioning.

It would be nice if Luthier or someone senior answered, but really we don't care if it is a purple chocolate frog. It's the gesture that counts.

We've all seen what happens when a gesture is made here........just not worth the effort.

Not to be holier than the Pope, but how could Luthier not expect a tidal wave of questions? How could anyone, seriously, expect 5 - 10 question given the state of the game and the less than exact information available on what the future will bring?

If luthier really didn't expect this amount of curiosity within the community then maybe it's time for him to stick his nose into reality once again. Could be carthatic, I've been told. :roll:

That's right, its only their jobs after all.

What we need to do is boil down the 150 questions to the 10 most important ones to this community, if the devs cant answer just 10, then i give up.

Just bring me Oleg back, please...

I miss him. ;)

Yep...having customers wanting to purchase your next product really isn't worth the hassle. I mean...what business really needs customers...right?

Not a bad suggestion actually...

I think it's also worthwhile adding that in this thread:

"http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=34369"

the first post by BlackSix reads:
"Attention! Please ask questions for Luthier in this thread. He will try to answer them tonight."

This followed Luthier saying here:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...63&postcount=1

"I'll be back at the end of the day to answer your questions".

Falstaff "I meant to post this earlier....it is silly to scape-goat Luthier or make him the poster-boy".

I'm just pointing out he was the one who came forward and offered to answer the questions, so he is the point of contact.

Let's also remember BlackSix saying that the answers weren't coming last-week as it was a Saturday and they don't work Saturday's!

So regarding my original post. I work most of the week, but I do visit the forums regularly. I make time to post (like now). It's a few minutes...that's all.

If they had spent a few minutes each week over the last-year telling us that the issues raised, the bugs reported, the suggestions given were actually of use and interest to them AND ACTED ON THEM, the software would be in a far better state than it is now, it would represent the input and knowledge of a simming community that really does know what it's on about and it would have held more authority if they had actively responded to the BETA TESTERS input as this is what we were told we were????

Remember everyone saying "IT'S A BETA", well after all the bugs that the players found and posted, the issues they raised, the questions they asked....we find out that the bugtracker isn't even read by the Developer's?

What's the point of releasing Beta Patches and we then get told we are Beta testing....only to not actually bother listening to the reports on the testing itself?

It's this type of 'support' that just makes me think that we are currently being strung along until the 'NEW' BoM comes out. I look forward to hearing the words "Place-holders" and "not final graphics/FM/DM/Weather/Features" being used until at least a year after it's release.....and then there'll be a sequel that will fix that too!

So I ask again. To rebuild some trust and faith in those who actually do care about this software (CloD not BoM for now), please answer some the questions you asked for and get one of your software developers to actually look at the Bug tracker and see what the main issues really are.

How the hell can you expect to fix the software when you aren't even looking at the issues and listening to your beta (patch) testers?

MP

So true. So sad. So hopeless.

Bingo.

This forum, a 'company forum,' has become dominated by people who obviously dislike the game, have no faith in it's future/the future of the series and harangue the developers whenever they make an appearance. Why this is allowed to continue by the moderators is a mystery to me. Why Luthier and other company reps rarely come here anymore is not.

Hopefully Jason will buy the franchise and we`ll get RoF style customer interaction, cos these lot are like Waldorf and Staedtler. Come on gents show us that you actually give a flying **** about customer support. Earth calling 1C is anybody there ?????.

Walrus why do you think so many people that worshipped IL2 have become so disillusioned, using negative feedback as an excuse for the lack of customer care is a pretty poor excuse in my book.

Okay, so we are not entitled to an opinion.

Please let me find my Rose tinted glasses!

The whole point here is that there is nowhere else to voice our opinions. There are problems. Are they unique? How do I find out? I ask the other members on these forums.

I then hope the developer's respond (the don't).

If it's an issue, I raise a bug report.

"has become dominated by people who obviously dislike the game, have no faith in it's future/the future of the series and harangue the developers whenever they make an appearance"

Because if they don't listen how the hell can we get the software working properly?

The problem is "the don't listen". If they did why would we (after 18-months) be told that they don't even read the bug tracker? That's because "they don't listen".

Why release a beta patch? Beta patches are for beta testing, we give Beta reports. They don't read the Bug tracker and they don't read the threads where bugs are reported?

What's the point in this amount of feedback and testing;

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=33610

B6 wrote "The main goal of this version of the patch is, once again, to locate and fix any remaining crash bugs. Please continue sending in your logs and crash dumps to ishevchenko@1cpublishing.eu

Please enable logging in your conf.ini (Log=1). If the game crashes, send us the log file it creates in your [My Documents]\1C SoftClub\il-2 sturmovik cliffs of dover folder, and any .dmp files created in a cppdump folder under the main game installation."

when the only people who are going to make an effort are those affected by it?

If you are going to release a Beta patch at-least listen to the replies and responses to issues raised?

But they already said they are not even reading them.

So the only reason there are "whiners" here is because they cause people to whine! If they responded, regularly spoke with the community...LISTENED to the community, CloD would be vastly superior to what it is today.

MP

It's become dominated by people who purchased the game but dislike the fact that the game is not entirely fit for purpose, after 19 months of broken promises & very poor communication the customers are voicing their opinions, after all Luthier once stated that he thrives on criticism, well if that is still true then this is the place for him.

No, but when the opinion becomes that the poster has given up on the game and is hostile to it's developers, then it is time to move on. Some of these people are so obsessed with this forum and their antagonism towards the developers that it has become kind of a strange pathology. This is not helpful to anyone.

[QUOTE=Mysticpuma;464217]I think it's also worthwhile adding that in this thread:

"http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=34369"

the first post by BlackSix reads:
"Attention! Please ask questions for Luthier in this thread. He will try to answer them tonight."

This followed Luthier saying here:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...63&postcount=1

"I'll be back at the end of the day to answer your questions".

Falstaff "I meant to post this earlier....it is silly to scape-goat Luthier or make him the poster-boy".

I'm just pointing out he was the one who came forward and offered to answer the questions, so he is the point of contact.

Let's also remember BlackSix saying that the answers weren't coming last-week as it was a Saturday and they don't work Saturday's!

So regarding my original post. I work most of the week, but I do visit the forums regularly. I make time to post (like now). It's a few minutes...that's all.

If they had spent a few minutes each week over the last-year telling us that the issues raised, the bugs reported, the suggestions given were actually of use and interest to them AND ACTED ON THEM, the software would be in a far better state than it is now, it would represent the input and knowledge of a simming community that really does know what it's on about and it would have held more authority if they had actively responded to the BETA TESTERS input as this is what we were told we were????

Remember everyone saying "IT'S A BETA", well after all the bugs that the players found and posted, the issues they raised, the questions they asked....we find out that the bugtracker isn't even read by the Developer's?

What's the point of releasing Beta Patches and we then get told we are Beta testing....only to not actually bother listening to the reports on the testing itself?

It's this type of 'support' that just makes me think that we are currently being strung along until the 'NEW' BoM comes out. I look forward to hearing the words "Place-holders" and "not final graphics/FM/DM/Weather/Features" being used until at least a year after it's release.....and then there'll be a sequel that will fix that too!

So I ask again. To rebuild some trust and faith in those who actually do care about this software (CloD not BoM for now), please answer some the questions you asked for and get one of your software developers to actually look at the Bug tracker and see what the main issues really are.

How the hell can you expect to fix the software when you aren't even looking at the issues and listening to your beta (patch) testers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus1
Bingo.

This forum, a 'company forum,' has become dominated by people who obviously dislike the game, have no faith in it's future/the future of the series and harangue the developers whenever they make an appearance. Why this is allowed to continue by the moderators is a mystery to me.


Okay, so we are not entitled to an opinion.

Please let me find my Rose tinted glasses!

The whole point here is that there is nowhere else to voice our opinions. There are problems. Are they unique? How do I find out? I ask the other members on these forums.

I then hope the developer's respond (the don't).

If it's an issue, I raise a bug report.

"has become dominated by people who obviously dislike the game, have no faith in it's future/the future of the series and harangue the developers whenever they make an appearance"

Because if they don't listen how the hell can we get the software working properly?

The problem is "the don't listen". If they did why would we (after 18-months) be told that they don't even read the bug tracker? That's because "they don't listen".

Why release a beta patch? Beta patches are for beta testing, we give Beta reports. They don't read the Bug tracker and they don't read the threads where bugs are reported?

What's the point in this amount of feedback and testing;

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=33610

B6 wrote "The main goal of this version of the patch is, once again, to locate and fix any remaining crash bugs. Please continue sending in your logs and crash dumps to ishevchenko@1cpublishing.eu

Please enable logging in your conf.ini (Log=1). If the game crashes, send us the log file it creates in your [My Documents]\1C SoftClub\il-2 sturmovik cliffs of dover folder, and any .dmp files created in a cppdump folder under the main game installation."

when the only people who are going to make an effort are those affected by it?

If you are going to release a Beta patch at-least listen to the replies and responses to issues raised?

But they already said they are not even reading them.

So the only reason there are "whiners" here is because they cause people to whine! If they responded, regularly spoke with the community...LISTENED to the community, CloD would be vastly superior to what it is today.

MP


An additional note:

However I should have added that if Luthier wishes to spend some time actually answering the questions HE requested, I do look forward to hearing how CloD will be fixed/patched and how they will actively look at fixing the Bugs detected in the BETA release before the very final Retail version.

So Beta testers prepare to post your findings at the link Luthier will promise to have read by those looking to make a working retail patch.

Link please for that promise of reading should be a priority and a promise.

I really don't want to see another post from Luthier asking what are the issues we have had? Isn't that what everyone has been posting on these forums!

PLEASE READ THE RESULTS OF TESTING LUTHIER or get someone to do it!

MP

The sad thing is even IF/When Clod is patched it may still not work but you know that's it then [unless you buy BOM of course ].
This is the official IC forum and they can't even be bothered to come on here and tell the truth,i suspect even the moderators are feeling the same sense of being left in limbo.
I would guess that someone could read Luthier the questions out and the answers dictated back in a short time ready to be posted on here,where there's a will there's a way.
Hey it's Friday tomorrow maybe just maybe ;)

I have very little faith in truth, after the 50% performance increase patch actually dercreased my fps and dumbed down the graphics and removed clouds I think that if they fix just one bug without breaking anything else it will be considered a great result by the dev's.

@Mysticpuma: please put the quotes into proper qoute tags otherwise it is really hard to read. Thanks :)

I've often wondered what would possess a software developer to predict a "no less than 50% increase" in performance, before they had even begun working on the optimisations. It was almost child-like in its naivety.

That seems like a wilful distortion of what is happening here - frankly I don't know how anyone can still be refusing to face reality over what has happened here.

Luthier made a statement that he would answer questions.

I have no problem whatsoever with the fact that he is busy and has other important tasks. The issue for me is NOT that we haven't received the answers. The issue is that he/they didn't even have the common courtesy to take 30 seconds to post that the answers would be delayed (though actually now I suspect that we will not get answers to the questions).

It has not become dominated by "people who dislike the game". Many of us here have been wildly excited about this game and have looked forward to it for years. The reason many people are less than happy is that the game was released in such an unfinished state, that the rate of progress has been impossibly slow, that the communication has been poor, that promises and expectations have not been met.

The reaction of the fans and customers on this forum is completely understandable given all of the above. Many people feel let down and disappointed. Many of us have given the devs every opportunity and have turned a blind eye to repeated disappointment. We want to see progress. We want this game to succeed. We want to be able to enjoy the sim we have looked forward to for years.

But the recent fiasco over Luthier's questions has been so needlessly antagonistic to the fans here and could so easily have been remedied with a simple post. If I had been treated with such lack of care and respect by any friend or by any other business I would feel let down and angry. I see no reason why I should treat Luthier or the devs differently in this case.

Some people suggest that those of us who are unhappy should just go away. Given the disappointing reality of the COD situation - acknowledged even by Luthier - it is more surprising that there are people here who refuse to face the reality, than that many of us feel compelled to speak our mind honestly and sometimes bluntly.

As one of the original 'true believers' in this game it has taken a long time for me to feel so disillusioned, angry and let down. The reasons for this are completely due to the actions of Luthier and the devs. Repeated faith, belief and patience has been proved to be misplaced - solely by their actions and their actions alone. Many of the people who I now find myself categorised with as a 'whinger' or malcontent are people I have argued with or dismissed in the past. That their opinions have been proved right over time is not at all the outcome I would have preferred, but my eyes are open enough to see that that is the case and I am honest enough to admit it.

I want questions answered as much as anyone else, but that certainly isn't going to save the development. Concentrating on fixing the game engine certainly will. There won't be any positive answers to our questions, or any type of knowledgeable answer until they know what they have when its done. They ventured guess early in the development that obviously didn't turn out, and are understandably quite now, when guesses won't cut it. If they fix the game engine most of this negative cr#p will be forgotten, if they don't, it won't matter. Staying quite now is the best course of action, it will give fodder for the negative types, but its still the right thing to do.

Reading all this, I was thinking about making myself another home brew C++ game called "answer the questions":grin:. Here's a little sample:

/************************************************
Player 1

MadBlaster, try to answer these questions really fast and win!

1) Was epilipy filter a fraud?
Answer: Yes!
Time to answer this question : .1 seconds

2) Was clod a hunk of junk?
Answer: No doubt about it!
Time to answer this question: .4 seconds

3) Do you think bom will be better than clod?
Answer: Wishful thinking. They call it vaporware!
Time to answer this question : .6 seconds

Player 1 Total Score: 1.1 seconds
That was an excellent score, MadBlaster!
Winning!!!:!::!::!:

Player 2

Luthier, try to answer these questions really fast and win!

1) Was epilipy filter a fraud?
Answer: What? (shakes head) Oh no, no, no! We really had to do that because we didn't want anyone to become injured playing our wonderful simulation of the Battle of Britian. We really weren't trying to mask our fails in programming this wonderful ww2 simulation. It was all on the “up and up” to help those less fortunate that have this terrible spastic affliction, because we really care about those guys and gals (hic) and their happiness is more important than success of our sim that we worked many, many, many years on. Too bad we had to fire some of those guys. But dem's da breaks!
Time to answer this question : 1 hour and first bottle of vodka.

2) Was clod a hunk of junk?
Answer: No, no, no... no doooubt about it!
Time to answer this question: Sometime into the second bottle, half empty with some backwash, bits of burrito floating on top.

3) Do you think bom will be better than clod?
Answer: Uh, wake me up when it's over. B6, where’s my pillow??? Too late. Thump! (falls on floor, foaming vomit trailing side of mouth, big gash on side of head that gets infected with white pus a few days later.)
Time to answer this question: Error!..Error!..Error!..Error!...

Player 2 Total Score: Disqualified
That was a not so excellent score, Luthier!
Winning??? Not so much.:(:(:(

/*************************************************


It’s just an example. When or if I get it finished, I’ll make an “announcement”. Hum dee dum...:-P:-P:-P

Sorry Chivas, this just won't do.

Luthier made a statement that he would do something. No-one here forced him into that obligation or choice. I have supported them many times in the past.

I refuse to have such bullshit behaviour swept under the carpet because honestly acknowledging it may endanger the future of the game. If so it is their fault

This whole thing sorta reminds me of a fella that I knew some years back.
He smoked a lot of the "wildwoodflower"...and was always under the influence of it. He had a favorite saying..."You're never late, if you don't care."

He was right.

I would agree with you if I thought they had the answers, but I'm not so sure they do. I think the development is on the tipping point and its about to go one way or the other. The answers will be very different depending on which way it falls.

So then why say "i will be back to anwser your questions later"?

This +100.

This mess is entirely of their own making, but certain members on these forums would have us believe it's somehow the community's fault.

Tomorrow never comes as it is then today.

What does Luthier actually do in the office?

Luthier once described it as, running around with his hair on fire. ;)

Must be an inferno by now. :razz:

Oh I don't know take a guess....maybe his lead programmer came in, and said there has been a major setback in the stability patch, maybe their investors want to pull the pin, and he has to go and talk them into holding on, maybe he just likes p#ssing some of his customers off, so they won't buy the sequel. There are a hundred possible higher priorities than massaging the feelings of a few people in the forums who immediately take everything he says as a "Promise". I'm sure he couldn't post quick enough if something positive has happened. Until then we will have to wait.

Explains alot, and yes some don't seem to notice this . . .

Can't go back to the old days, and wishing Oleg was here, its changed.

I wish they would communicate better, but we don't have it. And the blame partly lies here. I mean there is a lot of .. . issues.

They give us an update, but it spawns questions. They give a deadline, but miss it, and some drag them through the coals. Software development tends to have more gremlins than say mechanical or actual physical aspects of building or creating . . . So hard and fast deadlines sometimes are missed and there is some irregularity, chaos, and unexpected things happening.

But the issues can be fixed with a degree of reliability, regularity, and minimal unexpected issues . . . but needs tons of manpower and / or money coupled with a high degree of expertise. Anyone of those three are missing, and you go back to irregularity and deadlines missed.

And the devs don't have tons of money or manpower, though they may have the expertise . . .



Luthier says later in a day, well TG we're not a pinned down squad and Luthier is our CAS . . . cuz he'd be flying over the next day with the answers and find the place crawling with opposing forces and dozens of SAM sites and hundreds of AAA and smalls arms fire to deal with.

We know they don't communicate goodly :)

they should. but they don't. We can hope they are playing the BOM works and everyone will be happy ending.

And I hope this is true.




someone mentioned DCS . . . they have a working solid game engine. . . Cliffs doesn't. Of course DCS can pull off a mustang.

1) WORKING engine
2) Mustang ONE of the most beloved warbirds and enough in the modern times to get an accurate feel for to model correctly in a game . . .

vs CLod

1) brokey engine
2) 50+ warbirds, some with obscure information . . .


a working game engine is key . . . and DCS shows it.


Someone else mentioned the usual Jason is uber and they wish ROF took over IL-2 . .

ROF facts:


ROF customer service is rated one of the best places to work for. Its easy when everyone nearly all the calls is congratulating them for a great game.



But it boils down to if they can deliver a working BOM game. That's all they can do, it's what really counts in the end.




it sucks but I also wish 1C would improve on customer interaction / relations / communication.

But I also wish the human race didn't have to fight wars, and evil wasn't in the hearts of some people . . . and we had a great global economy . . .


but things aren't meant to be.

If there was a choice between good customer service and communication and a mediocre game vs a great game with bad customer service,

I'd take the great game . . .


sometimes life aint always what we expect or want it to be, we just have to make due with what we got.