More on epilepsy in Cliffs of Dover
 

Hi everyone,

The team could never in a million years imagine that a post on a Russian-language forum would so quickly make the rounds and spread around the internet.

The information there is not accurate, especially the placing of the blame on Ubisoft.

I feel that I need to describe this in more detail.

Our game did cause wide-scale epilepsy failures when tested. Propellers, muzzle flashes, smoke puffs, explosions, falling bombs, flying or taxiing between buildings, sun shining through canopy framework, etc, they were all causing potentially seizure-inducing flashes.

We worked hard to address all these issues individually, but since a flight sim is all about fast-moving large objects, there were just too many instances of things causing high-contrast flashes.

So, as we were running out of time, WE decided to implement this epilepsy filter as a stop-gap measure.

The filter sits on top of the game's graphics wrapper. It saves a previous frame, and then compares it pixel-by-pixel to the new frame. When two pixels are found with a high degree of contrast between them, the new pixel is toned down to make the change less drastic.

This causes a visual effect somewhere between bloom and motion-blur that removes virtually all instances of high-contrast flashes.

However this pixel-by-pixel frame analysis and modification takes up additional resources, it in fact delays the showing of each new frame until each pixel of it checked, and therefore the filter is causing deteriorated performance that is especially notable on lower-end machines.

We are continuing to work to optimize the game and to increase its framerate. Ubisoft has been very patient and understanding with us throughout the entire process, and we are continuing to work with them very closely to find the best solution to epilepsy issues.

In summary, I want to stress that it is OUR code and OUR game engine that is causing performance issues. And it US who has to make it better, and that's exactly what we pledge to do.

Thanks for the clarification luthier.

Any idea when the problem will be solved?

Give us an option to turn it off?

Thanks for the update

Thanks for the honest reply.

Hoping to see those improvements on the 31st! :-)

Thanks for the update. So is there the option to turn the filter off, allowing the game to run quicker, with less obvious motion blur etc?

Will this filter be switchable?

+1
Can you not put it in the conf.ini?

I'm willing to accept the risk and therefore want the original.

Where do I sign the waiver?

Thank you for this explanation. Fingers crossed that you succeed in solving this in near future. Especially for making it an optional feature.

thanks for the information, Luthier.

Well good thing that you clarified. Looking forward to seeing the game being improved. :)

Luthier,

I don't know if you are up to date, but this epilepsy stuff is not only a huge debate, it has already and will force people to cancel their (pre)orders.

Nice and honest reply, thx

Jani

I hate to say this, but that is actually rather fascinating. I wonder if this may end up being one of the long therm limitations of high levels of realism in computer games?

Make it optional and NOONE ever again complains about it. Its that simple.

Winger

I guessed there must be more to the story than it appeared from first posts. Will abstain from writing further arboreal posts and patiently await for the 31. March.

Hope you solve the issue.

Thx for the info, I'm sure you guys will get it running better.

Still... wish it was an option :(.

Maybe with some pressure from the outside they'll let you bend on this.

luthier
Could you please tell us the graphic card and processor + ram you use to run the game in your office? I think those "system requirements" are all unreliable.

World in conflict has an OPTION to turn it on and off. It would be nice if you allowed the option to be unofficially changed without your consent, so therefore its not your problem.

Good luck with optimization. I really hope for success!

I think perhaps the line for today is:

KEEP CALM AND CARRY ON!

Yes thanks Luthier for the clarification,we can all now cancel our pre orders and await further development of the game,as such time dictates now would not be an ideal time to purchase this.

Please inform us when you can fix this for us so we may in turn purchase this masterpiece,when it's playable.

Thank you for taking the time to update us on this issue. Good luck getting it sorted.

The good news is that, being a blanket filter it should be easy to turn off so long as the means to do so is exposed in the cfg.ini, if not in the menus instead of half-done changes to dozens of effects.

Even if the switch has to be un-official, just make sure it's there.

Thanks for clarifying.

Thx for the information. I must say this is what you get in a world obsessed with health and safety, how many people with Epilepsy play flight sims and how many will play CoD....not many i`m guessing and for this small percentage of the community we all have to pay with no X-Fire or SLi, and lower framerates.

I`m diabetic so when i`m playing football I do so knowing i`ve got to eat a load of sugary stuff before I start playing it`s called common sense where i`m from, so if your unfortunate and suffer from epilepsy a flight sim with massive amounts of glints and flashes probably ain`t the greatest choice of game, i`m all for the option to enable by default an anti-epilepsy tool, with the option to turn it off for the people without. Placing these limitations on everyone is a major error, i`ll wait till it`s sorted before placing my order, i`ve cancelled the current one.

Maybe more info on the effects and frame loss rates would be a good move?/

will it mean for the future that all game developement with a little bit open world, real scenery and realistic graphics will be canceled or reduced to a standard blurry low contrast porridge?? On the other hand there are tons of games/films with 10 explosions per second and lots of 360° scripted camera turns....something is wrong with the world

sorry for my bad english..

Thanks for the clarification Luthier. I -for one- will of course buy the game on day one but I have to admit that I am a bit disappointed that the game will be crippled like this. I recently invested in a HD6850 that I actually couldn't afford in the hope that I would get a good gameplay experience just for CoD. Of course I play other PC games too but I specifically upgraded for CoD, this sucks so hard....:(

Thanks for the clarification, Luthier.

I'm surprised at your surprise... don't you know IL2 fans are slightly demented?
I enrolled in a three-year Russian college course just to read the Russian forums. I just completed Spit-Whining 201 last semester (got 97%, if you must know).

Good thing is that HD6xxx series does a lot better than the nVidias, at least from the reports so far.

So you're from MARS?!

Or maybe, the past...

Thanks for being honest about it.
Please give us a way to switch it off.

My ignorance of the intricacies on this subject leads me to believe that this is a very daunting issue to fix...

I wish the programmers best of luck.

Thanks for the info, be good if it could be turned off if that was an option but otherwise I know you'll all be working hard to acheive as efficient a solution to this as you can. From what I can gather it's raised the minimum spec a bit a now machines have to deal with this extra layer of complexity but I've no doubt we'll all be more than satisfied shortly. It's also good to know that the filter is a stop gap measure and won't be the final solution for epileptics.

Oh :(

Flu medicine will not help you,if you have a brain tumor.Its naive to believe that they will sort the problems and optimize the game engine till 31st.They had 7 years.Canceling my order on Steam.See you next year(maybe).;)

Biggs mate, your avatar has a glint in it, please remove it, thats how daft this is....lol. Put a switch in thats enabled as on by default, this means it`s a conscientious decision to disable it by turning it off.

Trigaaar,

I must have re-read the first post 8 times... where did you get that Luthier quote from?
C_G

Quote:
Originally Posted by luthier View Post
I want to confirm that everything said here is true, we have implemented some drastic features for anti-epilepsy protection which are affecting FPS and killing SLI support.

We CANNOT make these optional. That will allow an opportunistic or an unfortunate person suffering from epilepsy to sue Ubisoft for damages and literally close down the studio for good.
Oh

Weird really, people who are blind cannot drive a car, so if they do and crash it, can they sue the people who make cars for allowing them the option, what a load of old codswallop.

And smoking kills fact, but because it says so on the packet, they can't be sued. Put a massive disclaimer as the first loading screen, FFS

Come on guys, I'll support you!

Maybe do it directly in the video card driver? Maybe Ati and Nvidia wouldn't mind? Like some option to turn it off and on, but directly in the driver settings? There is similar thing "vertical sync" already, maybe something of that can be used.

Like IL2: CoD specialize driver?

Just some thoughts . . .

:confused:In the UK if a TV programme or news report has flashing photography in it they give a verbal warning that it contains flash photography:rolleyes:
Surely if they can broadcast live to millions all at once a sim/game is capable of issuing a warning so that anyone carrying on past the warning accepts responsibility of their own actions. :confused:

This is very disappointing news and does not inspire much confidence. What sort of FPS hit are we talking about? 2 FPS I can live with, if it's 10 FPS then this is a deal breaker.

Thanks Thor....
I am so bummed by this.
Ridiculous, I know... it's just a game after all.
It seems to me that any program that had to compare each frame with the previous frame and make consequent graphical changes is going to be inherently resource intensive, no matter how well coded.

Sadly, the ambulance chancing lawyers win again...
Like others have suggested, I'd gladly sign a waiver- failing that one would think that making it a necessarily conscious choice to turn off the filter, once duly warned of the risk, would constitute an explicit acceptance of that risk.
[sigh] time to walk away from the 'puter and get some perspective, I suppose...
C_G

Looks like back to faitefull il2:1946,So why doesnt dcs a-10 have this,a-10 has the blinding sunrays also,its total BS

Well, from what Luthier is saying, Cliffs of Dover is less "Flash Photography" and more, "Japanese Seizure Bots".

This sounds like a poor damage control post.

IT states nothing we didn't knew already: of course that the code is Maddox, but is UBI that IMPOSED that code to be added to the game.

We DO NOT want to have the 6 years hard working created engine/game teared to pieces in order to add this code, which will simply make it to not be a simulator anymore.

We need to have the game as it was made BEFORE this epilepsy thing, and every modification to it added in order to address the potential epilepsy issues, to be added as an option, ie, allowing normal people to play without it. It's sick to punish all the people just because it might hurt some which shouldn't/won't play this game anyway.

Regarding the necessity to avoid a lawsuit, it can be easily done how it was done hundered times before: IF the epilepsy warning is disabled from ini file, at the launch of the game, put up a mandatory pop up stating epilepsy care-bear code was deactivated, and any user entering the game does it on its own risk (the standard MMO EULA) and by pressing the ACCEPT button (which will be the only way to start the game). This mean no ordinary user can acceidentally start the game without the epilepsy filter code, as it needs to be manually added to the ini file, and even if will do it, being forced to press the Accept button in order to start the game means he was warned and knows about it, and chose to do it at his own risk. From law's point of view, this method is bullet proof (again, see all the MMO's legal part solutions).

All of the above IF this "epilepsy filter" excuse is true.. Because it very much looks like actually it isn't..

Do not seek further excuses on something which looks more and more as not being what is presented to be, but rather a smoke screen to hide the complete lack of optimization done on this engine, and the fact that it does NOT meet the reasonable gameplay experience on minimum settings/minimum requirements. Which, btw, can lead to real suits against UBI.

PS: I've pre-ordered a CE of this game, in order to help both UBI and Maddox and give my support for this game/genre. If UBI doesn't make this so called "filter" optional, I will cancel my pre-order, and I will look forward to buy a russian 1C release after all the optimisations to the engine are made.

@ adonys:

Spot on.

Guys, as long as this reasoning is true (and I do believe Ilya), you can't blame them and you can't ask them to offer it as an optional setting for the simple reason that not all epileptic people know their problem!

You can't ask them to risk this, because the person who might have the problem can be YOU!
And you may get it while being alone in your darklighted room and get all of the possible problems.

Just give them time to find a solution to this problem.

Let's wait and in the meantime...betatest the game!

I still blame Yubisoft. it's them who are enforcing this in case someone who has peanut allergy buys a product with peanuts in it.

I wonder how i survived the past 35years - with all those flashy lights...

It just needs a waiver, end of story.

Kiaoni you don't get it.
You may be "eligible" for epilepsy and not knowing it and that's the main problem.

Please, please, please make this switchable, luthier!

I am a pilot, fly single engine aircraft into the sun, and have no issue with PSE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosensitive_epilepsy).

I think it is great you are considerate to those who do have an issue, but the real pilots of WW2 did not have this filter (just sunglasses), and I would rather have no filtering.

Regards!

S!

having waivers for this sort of thing wouldn't wash. EULA are regularly ticked and ignored, and it would have to be something you tick whenever playing it as it wouldn't differentiate between users on a single machine. i can see the legal sense behind this, imagine if they asked pipe fitters and builders to sign waivers regarding asbestos - everyone would sign because they want to work. same with this, everyone will tick it as they want to play. all it takes is one unscrupulous bugger to sue.

there's a line in microwave instruction manuals about not drying pets in them. guess how it got there.
this.

everyone getting all pissy and cancelling their orders - if the same had been done to rise of flight it would've died on it's arse. as it is, investment = continued development. turn down the settings, get used to the mechanics of the new sim and watch as the patches come rolling in to improve visual performance. maddox games have good form in this respect. feel a bit sorry for the russian buyers being used as beta testers, but good lord can you imagine the whinefest if the release date had been set back another 2 months...
lol

I survived 33 and half years already spending many nights in rave parties so I guess I'm fine.

House,

That's an interesting point, but I don't think it's a legally accurate one.
Food manufacturers aren't precluded from making products with peanut or peanut oil on the chance that a consumer might not be aware that they have a fatal allergy to peanuts.

They're only required to perform due diligence in warning consumers that their products do or may contain peanuts.

C_G

Slowly i am starting to think the epilepsy filter thingie might just be an argument to hide poor game optimisation behind. I hope the 31th will proove me wrong. I just cant think of an other reason to make this "feature" optional. I mean this "problem" already damaged the reputation of the game pretty much. But maybe the damage is less with the "epilepsy scapegoat" than it would have been without?

Winger

Other UBI games have it optional...

That's what I was referring to as stated in other threads.

Nope...Read carefully...1C decided to implement the "filter" themselves cause they were not able to adjust and modify their code in time for release...
As for the obligation of reducing the risk of seizures to a minimum, 1C must have been knowlegable of that for a while...ANd agreed to this obligation...
They were caught by surprise when the tests results came in,,,
And luthier has good words for UBI in this matter...
So UBI bashing is not justified here...

Salute !

Actually CG you find about these kind of allergies from your very early years.

Epilepsy can happen later - even after a hit in your head when falling down from the stairs or your bike.
You just don't know when it'll come.

Anyway, I'm with you guys that since we "know" that we don't have a problem why not enjoy the game, but publishers seem to think of the possible dangers and there are ones, that's the problem.

Looks like we have to get the russian version somehow:

http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthrea...=1#post1573025


Luthier, which solution is planed for the international version?

I have been worked 22y. in gamebusiness/gamesales and distribution, i know who i blame.

US.

Kankkis

Is this better?

You are wrong! Because, at the moment Maddox was asked to add this, it knew very well 1C didn't required it, therefore it was not needed for 1C too. So, all they were needed to do was to make a branch in the code for it, not add it to the trunk.

I'm sorry, but the more I am looking at it, and the more I see the way UBI/1C/Maddox guys are reacting, the more I am convinced the "epilepsy filter" problem is not real.

You guys need to think things through
 

It doesn't have to be you that has epilepsy.

You're playing CoD in your den and your son comes in to see what you're doing - he looks over your shoulder to watch and BAM! You didn't know he was an epileptic until that moment. All the 'I'll take responsibility for my own safety' arguments mean bugger all when that happens. It isn't just about you.

Sorry to be melodramatic, and I agree it's extrememly unlikely to happen, but... just sometimes, it does happen.

When I was a mere schoolboy of 15, I watched a teacher up and die in the middle of a lesson due to epilepsy - it was quite unnervinging to say the least.

For myself, I've been playing Il2 for the last ten years or so - and I'll be playing this new game for the next ten at least. I hope Ilya and co get things sorted out soon. Until then... the sun is actually shining on the south-east of England for a change - I think I'll go for a walk.

IMHO, this is a legal requirement now in the US. Regrettably, UBI have elected to manage distribution to other countries with the US requirement in place for all. Not all countries require this to be in place. As usual, one size does not fit all.

As far as I'm concerned, if I could get it elsewhere without pax Americana I would.

The question is not whether an individual can develop a condition - it's about enforcing a prevention mechanism in a single aspect of life that actually does not prevent the condition from developing.

I want to know this too.

Or i just learn russian language and buy russian version.

Kankkis

Correct. Ban peanuts!

+1... Do want!

Reading other responses in the thread,it looks like there might not be a fix.Invisible propellors...
Does the Russian version work on an English version of W7?

Nope, because your child doctor gives you instructions what and when to feed your kid.
The feeding procedure is supposed to be under control and mommy is supposed to watch her kid after she feeds it a potential problematic food.

How many people die every year from epiliectic seizures from video games??
I have never heard of one case.

That would be the perfect spot to notice his disease - at least, then you know and it happend right beside you.

What if this happens on a staircase? Or while climbing up a tree?

1. Anti-epilepsy will once and forever banished from the Russian version of the game. This adds up to 10 fps on older machines. You now can manually disable the filter - the instructions were given repeatedly.

2. We have already discovered the cause of micro-Friesians at low altitudes. Repairs should take a small enough amount of time.

3. We continue to optimize the game. Our chief programmer - the optimizer is sick the third day, but it does have a concrete plan of work, which again is in a fairly short period of time will improve the framerate. Wonders of course we do not promise, but the flight over the landscape will be dramatically different than the flights have to water.

4. Texts are checked korerktorom. Kreditsy already cleaned out.

5. The remaining issue for us at least a high priority. We hope to release a patch that improves the frame rate and the ruling texts next week (it will automatically take stim) and then in a free mode to address other issues, to improve the game, adding planes and m e.

I hope that is for international version too..

Someone might have an epileptic siezure from that avatar. Put a damn filter on it NOW

Now imagine a night mission in the 110 with 108s...

:evil:

We agree but the problem with a possible sue in USA is above all.
They wouldn't risk it at all, especially after they had tests proving the problem.
Not to mention the public discussions that make it completely impossible to close your eyes to the problem.

At least we're lucky that no such sensitivity exists in Russia (as far as we know) and thus there will be some way that we all get that release ;)

seems like they WILL remove the filter.... only when they fix the "flashes" that are present in the game....

no idea what that entails, but i hope its not an overly invasive task :confused:

thanks for clarifying, i intend to buy the game boxed, but im in italy and looking for a CE.
IMHO all this,its true that is a little ''shocking'', but im very confident on your team. First of all the release date itself posed me some doubts, seemed rushed in some aspects. But some may say, ''but you were developing for 6 years or so!''
Me atleast , i was honestly surprised for the release too, but was concerned.... maybe because i experienced the Silent Hunter series and offcourse SH5..
positevely, im really looking forward about your product, that im looking to buy (since 2006) and i think that ( i suppose) that the biggest risk now is the maybe lack of further oprimisation( or some decisions of the moment due to time limitation) that will come later on. I say that because AFAIK review sites usually review the product at first release( that is my concern for the try to widen the audience).
Nevertheless, i support you, and furthermore, i have to thank you for your time these past months to try answer and clarify misunderstatements. You are responsible also for my love in planes due to IL-2 ( that in my opinion is a sort of wwii air-encyclopedia)
So, I wish the very best for all of you, and for this project too

Ban shoes because you can walk over cliffs of Dover with them, fall on rocks and die.

That's the spirit!
+1.000.000!!!

So, it is cristal clear now: the UBI western version of the game will have this filter removed only after all the individual fixes for flashes will be in.

Which means, the UBI western release of the game will be forever crippled (because all the individual flashes fixes actually reads invisible propellers arc, and so on..)

Time to make some friends in Russia, and ask Luthier to internationalize (add english) in the russian version of the game.

So, Luthier, can at least this be made?

Luthier thanks for being honest with us about the problems. It actually makes me feel more confident about purchasing your product. I hope you are all able to get the major bugs worked out in time for the NA release, but even if you haven't I already have my copy on pre-order, and look forward to crashing my virtual plane lot next month.

[sappy]Only a few devs I have any faith in and 1C Maddox is amongst them. Thank you for being forth coming and quelling rumors, and for all the dedication of the entire development team at 1C Maddox. [/sappy]

Two weeks, I tell ya. Why even release it for the rest of the world then?

YESS!

A "english - patch" for the russian version and a russian distributor delivering to germany!!!
Amerika shouldn't be the measure for all things!

And that's the way to go. All today's soft needs some sort of "agreeing upon" in order to use it. Put ME back in charge of choosing my poison.

Thanks for nothing, now I'll have to see if I can cancel my already prepaid Steam version!!!!

In other words, you are saying that Luthier is not telling us the truth, and to add more, you say there is a conspiracy to make us believe that the game's issues are not related to poor coding ?

Hum...That is interesting indeed...:cool:

Salute !

This situation is so disappointing. Honestly I still don't see how this is anyones fault but UBI. If the devs had gone with any other publisher we wouldn't be in this mess.

At this point what needs to happen is for UBI to release them from the obligation to have the game epilepsy safe, go back to pre-anti-epilepsy code, and put a big disclaimer on start-up. I don't think anything less would satisfy everyone at this point.

Thanks for that Luthier, no one would believe me when i told this lot it wasn't Ubi's fault,

apologies below please.

As someone said before, minus a couple of FPS ok, minus 10+ FPS no go! I'm sorry but I simply can't invest in any new hardware (gotta a wee one in the pipeline) and if the game won't run smoothly on my rig - and I don't want to scale it down to early 90's flight sim - then I simply won't buy it.

so was i right then Krupi???

maybe this will jog your memory

"We have already discovered the cause of micro-Friesians"

What have small dairy cows got to do with it...the plot thickens!!!!!

Looks like I'll be waiting a while longer before I get this game.

Shame, I was looking forward to it.

Bad show all round.

the issue is not only with the US, but also UK:

http://www.epilepsy.org.uk/campaigns...ng/video-games

Some games manufacturers have already begun pre-screening their latest games. These manufacturers include Ubisoft, the games developer responsible for the title that triggered a seizure in Gaye’s son. These manufacturers are demonstrating a conscientious attitude towards the safety of gamers. They inspire some confidence that regulations may not be necessary if manufacturers will all voluntarily screen their products. But would all manufacturers be as conscientious?

“The games industry has tried to be responsible,” says John. “But if measures remain voluntary, there is the possibility that a small-scale manufacturer from another part of the world may not adhere to it. You may get one or two rogue games creeping through. Nevertheless, starting off with a voluntary approach may be the fastest way to get this done. Getting laws through Parliament is a slow and careful process. A voluntary code may be the fastest way to get a lot of the benefit, even if the system is not perfect.”



Other editors do the same

I find this a somewhat specious argument. I don't believe there is a 'good' way to have an epileptic fit.

But, whatever - I'm not really arguing. I just don't think the more self-serving opinions being catapulted about this forum are entirely representative of the issues at stake.

Perhaps I'm lucky in that my PC died recently (motherboard or cpu - both were neolithic anyway). I was going to wait a month or so before working out the spec for a new 'beast-rig' and, consequently, I get to watch developments with a certain emotional detachment.

By the time I get round to playing, I have faith that the issues will be resolved. Why do I have faith you ask:) - it is simple: watching the attention given to the original Il2 over the many years since it launched.

I guess if 1c/MG/Ubi would pay for upgrading my rig I'd buy it but how can you expect people to buy something that will be barely playable? No problems for people with deep pockets but for the rest of us?

It seems that because of epilepsy-gate muzzleflashes, sparks and flying debree have been removed as well from current version of CoD. But the game sounds very good ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwOW8...layer_embedded

So is this issue past tense ie solved with this filter, or does it have to be added now?
Secondly is the game safe to play? I dont wanna spaz out and end up foaming at the mouth as epilepsy can start at any point in someones life I heard.