A question for the flight sim vets.

[steellwaters]

I am new to the flight sim genre..although not new to sim in general(my favorite are the sub simulation games since I was a submariner in the navy but thats besides the point here)

I understand the tactics of dogfighting ....... the purpose of height/speed advantage or maneuverability.....

but what I don't have near a complete knowledge of is the difference between me-109 and a bf 109...or a spitfire or p-51 for that matter.......

sure...I can pick them out of a line-up(most anyways) but what I mean is what are the performance attributes.

I was hoping the vets could compile a list of the planes and the best tactics for winning/surviving a dogfight with each model.

I realise that I could just wikipedia every plane type but I was hoping some of you vets would know alot of this stuff offhand and provide an easy reference....


I like to be a well rounded player and intend to unlock every plane...AND USE EVERY PLANE in online dogfights regularly...so it would be alot of time to look up forty planes and then try to crunch the numbers and such and then I would forget the first half before i finished the second half :-P

I only play sim if can help it(getting my but kicked right now :-P with an AV8R and inside the cockpit(when available)

I will humbly accept an answer of "learn from experience noob" :-P but I would be interested in reading and studying a reference provided by the vets here.

thanks in advance :-)

[Dr. Laplace]

Well, first of all: the difference between a Bf109 and a ME109 is NONE.

The "Official" name of the 109 is "Bayerische Flugzeugwerke 109" hence the BF.

The main things to understand in aerial combat are BFM and the type of fighter you are in or against.

BFM= Basic Fighter Maneuvering, which comprehends positional geometry, offensive and defensive BFM. That's another topic.

The fighters are divided between "energy" fighters and "angles" fighters. As an example, a Bf109-E is an Energy fighter and a Spitfire MkII is an Angles fighter.

Roughly, a list would look like this:

Allies:

P51D and B: Energy fighters
P47: Energy
Spitfires: Angles
Russian aircraft: is my understanding that most are angles fighters.

Axis:
BF109s: Energy, however the "Gustav" variant (BF109 G) is a great angles fighter too.
FW190: Mix of both.
BF110: Energy.
ME262: Energy.

With this in mind you apply zoom and boom or turning fights theory to each possible scenario. However, this may not do much for you because a good fighter can be flying a brick with wings and STILL shoot you down.

[steellwaters]

Thats good stuff. I guess it would be interesting to know the relative abilities of planes of the same category too...If I am up against a better angle fighter than the one I am currently flying...could change my strategy



also I have deduced from reading posts that certain planes have optimum altitudes for operation...... imagine knowing this could make the difference sometimes.

I'm afraid I don't know enough about plane attributes to be able to give a representative list..

are things like minimum turn radius and climb rate sensical? or are there too many variables to make listing them useful.....

I understand much comes from experience but I am trying to see what I can get to start my experience with and minimize frustration :-P


thank you for the reply.

[Pyquila]

Been playing IL2 on the PC for a couple of months now waiting for BoP to come out. Not an avid flight sim player myself. So i maybe i don't have the advice you are looking for. But still, my 0.02 =)

It's really hard rate the planes in WWII. Maybe the spitfire won the battle of britain. Maybe the P-51 was indeed the best fighter of the war if you look at the win-loss. In the end it had much to do with the circumstances in which each plane operated. Would the p-51 been hailed as such an succes if it was met over germany by loads more ME-262's?

I would pick a plane that flies the way you like and stick with it. Everyone tells me the Hurricane is one of the best n00b planes in IL2 (pc). Too bad i really dislike that plane. I do really like the p-40. So i fly with that and each kill gives me a far bigger 'Yes!' than any of the kills with the Hurricane. And to be honest, it does handle n00b's pretty wel. My good old p-40 *hug*.

ps - Not wanting another discussion what plane is best. Just saying you should pick something you like and stick with it. Everyone knows a B-17 is the best plane of the war because it dropped chocolade instead of bombs. (at least over the Netherlands they did.)

[steellwaters]

I agree to an extent...I am not trying to figure out what plane is best...I want to know what each plane does well and what it doesn't.. so I can make a well informed choice when decide what tactic to use in a situation....should I go high or stay low......try to out-climb him to get away or use my speed..or maneuverability.......things that I know I will learn in time...but perhaps some insight could be given to make up for lack of experience......


anygame I play I try to be good with anything in the game....I am never the best at anything but I can use any tool you give me effectively...In a first person shooter I am comfortable with any weapon/class....I usually develop some random method by which I choose how I will play in any given session...run and gun...snipe...Close quarters....so on...

in this game I intend to do the same...I don't want to pick one plane and ignore the rest........I would be missing out on 97.5 percent of the experience ..IMHO

I might just have to go printing off wikipedia pages I think and make my own tables...

thanks for the replies so far though.....

[Wissam24]

I would recommend against using the Fw190s in combat, they turn awfully. I see them as more of the Hurricane role, ie anti bomber

[Lexandro]

Yeah Fw 190 have great barrelling ability but thats about it. The turning circle is bloomin HUGE for them.

[loopdreams]

It's a real shame that games don't come with big thick manuals anymore. In fact a game like this is so rich in it's source material that I'm sure many of the people who bought it because they understood what it's about would have paid an extra tenner for a special edition with a nice accompanying book. Sort of like the Forza 2 special edition.

[steellwaters]

It's a real shame that games don't come with big thick manuals anymore. In fact a game like this is so rich in it's source material that I'm sure many of the people who bought it because they understood what it's about would have paid an extra tenner for a special edition with a nice accompanying book. Sort of like the Forza 2 special edition.



I agree completely...thanks for the info on the FW-190 guys

[Mr_Steven]

Dr. Laplace is right about just about everything in his post, however I'd like to clarify one thing. Whether a plane is an "energy" or "angles" fighter, it must be compared with something else. The types you listed are all correct, assuming you compare the plane to it's enemy at the time it was in combat. Example: Spitfire Mk Vb vs. a Me109-G2, the 109 takes the role of energy fighter, in THIS particular fight, I hope you guys are following. However if we were to hypothetically put a Spitfire Mk IXe up against a Me109-E4 (Although obviously this would probably never happen) the Spitfire here would take the role of energy fighter simply because it's much faster, has a better climb rate, and simply produces and retains energy much better than the 109 in this matchup. The Me109-E4 would actually now be considered the "angles" or "turning" fighter, as it would have a better turning radius than the Spit IX. Realistically the only way for the Spitfire to lose this battle is to either be jumped, or get himself into a turning fight with the 109. However, what you also have to understand is that sometimes this margin between who the energy fighter is and who the turning fighter is, can be very small, or very large for that matter. One matchup that pops into my mind now is one of the greatest of all time, in the Korean War, the F86 Sabre vs. the MiG-15. In this matchup the Sabre takes "energy fighter" however by only a small margin. If the MiG-15 and F86 spot each other at a distance to engage and the MiG-15 has even 1000 feet on the Sabre, the Sabres only real option is to break as hard into the MiG as he can, then straighten out into maybe a very shallow dive and not even thinking about re-engaging any time soon, simply because the MiG actually had more energy in this situation. So as you'll find, there will be many times where you know you will be the energy fighter (say you're in a P-51D and the enemy is in an Me109-G10), however if he has an altitude advantage and comes screaming in at you, you are in a completely defensive position and aren't even thinking about shooting him down right there. Sorry if this is confusing, you may even want to read it over, but I think I've tried my best to lay out some aerial warfare concepts that if you can understand, you can definetely apply to your flying, and after much time and practice, really become a good pilot. There's just a sensation about going up for 3 flights online in about a 4 hour period, making it back to base safely everytime, unscratched( or scratched that can be very fun too) and even getting a few kills while your up. Alright.

[QBlackDeathQ]

It's a real shame that games don't come with big thick manuals anymore. In fact a game like this is so rich in it's source material that I'm sure many of the people who bought it because they understood what it's about would have paid an extra tenner for a special edition with a nice accompanying book. Sort of like the Forza 2 special edition.

haha yeah remember falcon 4.0? now that was a Big thick manual

[Lexandro]

haha yeah remember falcon 4.0? now that was a Big thick manual

Remember it? Im looking at it right now. I still havent taken in all the info in it yet and thats a good few years Ive had it. There are still bits of the Falcon I dont quiet "get" yet, but sit me in the seat with some Mavs or Bombs and Ill hit the target every single time, and if any pesky enemy airplanes are around they are in for a bad day.

[phlux]

Ahhh Falcon FTW! My eyes have gone crossed looking at that manual a time or two over the years.

[QBlackDeathQ]

Ahhh Falcon FTW! My eyes have gone crossed looking at that manual a time or two over the years.

lol yep thats the manual the big blue and black binded book ahh so many wtf moments reading that.