the best dogfighting this generation?

[PoetSaskia]

there hasn't been much in the way of flight combat this gen. I own HAWX and Ace Combat 6, and was disappointed with both of them. I haven't experienced dogfighting this good in many years, since Rogue Leader for gamecube. I think it's the best this gen, what do you think?

[Robotic Pope]

You won't get much disagreement here. Many would say its the best of ANY generation console.

[trk29]

Agreed the best console fighter I have played. I did like Aero Wings on ps2 that was a good console sim.

[Lexandro]

I have AC6/Hawx/Over-G and now IL2. I can say for certain that IL2 is THE BEST flight game for consoles ever made. The thing about modern flight sims is that 99% or the time you never actually see your opponents due to the supreme range of missiles. Arcade wise this usually results in games where all you do is wait for tone and fire to get a kill.

By having the game in WW2, we are once more returned to a fight & flight scenario. Gunnery is key to victory, and skill at getting "guns on". There are a few issues I have with it as a title for console.

Sim mode I feel is a waste of time, as do many other console players. If I want a "sim" game I play PC, thats what its best at. Arcade style games is where the consoles strength is. I mean no offence to anyone who plays it, whatever floats your boat. Me though I see Arcade and Realistic as the two core modes to the game.

Realistic for a stick, Arcade for a pad.

But all in all, with a few minor tweaks I would give IL2 BoP a very good 9.5/10 score. I currently rate it at 8.8 ( lack of SP options/controls definitions etc).

[fuzzychickens]

I agree sim mode has issues, but it could be improved if the map just gave a large area indicating where you enemy is instead of telling you exactly where he is.

Plus ability to force players to use plane sets that actually fought against each other would help in IDing them.

Right now it sucks when your teammate is flying a spit against a spit on the other team and you have little way of knowing who to shoot when they are in close proximity - until you get real close which makes BnZ kinda hard.

[Irishmandkg]

I think this game mirrors the amount of fun that I had with Crimson Skies back in 2003 on the original xbox. Such a fun game.

[Axe99]

Sim mode I feel is a waste of time, as do many other console players. If I want a "sim" game I play PC, thats what its best at.

I disagree here - I see no reason other than entrenched bias why you can't have a sim-style game on console. Sure, you may not be able to deal with the entire range of controls, but there's no reason why you can't have the flight model and assists off. I think there's this idea amongst PC gamers that console gamers are 'dumbed down' and only play shallow action titles, but it's important to recognise that there's a strong shift of gamers from PC to console - I used to primarily be a PC gamer, and the last flight sim prior to BoP I played was IL-2 on PC - but now that I've got my Thrustmaster and BoP, as long as the devs come good on the dead zone fix in a patch, I won't go back to another PC flight sim again. I've always found PC gaming painful due to driver/compatibility issues and that installed games bog your PC down (oh, and having to spend a small fortune keeping the rig up to date). I know I'm not the only console gamer who's thrilled to have a sim-style game on console, and I'd argue that the reason BoP is selling better than most flight games do is because it's stopped treating console players like babies and understands they don't mind a meaty challenge ;).

I think all three modes are great, and work well alongside each other.

And, strictly on topic, BoP is easily the best console flight and fight game every, no two ways about it - been playing console flight games since Afterburner on the Mega Drive, and nothing comes close :D.

[Lexandro]

I disagree here - I see no reason other than entrenched bias why you can't have a sim-style game on console.

I have no entrenched bias, I play both PC and Xbox with regularity with equal fun.


Sure, you may not be able to deal with the entire range of controls, but there's no reason why you can't have the flight model and assists off.

By not having the full range of controls available it precludes any full simulation game. Your forgetting that the vast majority of xbox players do not own flight sticks, and frankly actually getting one retail can be a next to impossible task. That means that the flight model simply must be simplified to some extent to allow a joypad to work. Your also forgetting that consoles themselves do not have the same computing power as a PC does. That means that there also has to be some simplfication of the game engine to accomodate console hardware. The visuals themselves take a lot out of the sytems, theres not much left for heavy physics calculations that are required of a full sim game.

As for the rest of your post, its entirely opposite of my view. If you would read the "to many tips from tom clancy games" thread, you would see I make the point of showing that the game is not dumbed down. I also make the point that the games strength is in its action. Consoles sell well because games are fun, when games become tediuos people switch off and play something else. Another point is that this game has amazing visuals, and sim mode really doesnt do the game justice on how good it really looks. Sure cockpits are nice and all but theres no zoom in on instruments so they are pratically useless.

And there isnt a strong shift of players, the PC flight sim crowd is tiny as it is. Your personal view is tainted slightly by the fact that your a fan of the series as a sim. Me personally I havent played the PC game, and I dont intend to. I gave up on flight games when HD gaming took off and not one combat flight game came out since that was a proper sim. Going back and playing those games now makes me cringe at how bad some of the graphics are, or how clunky the physics can be, or the terrible MP code (or lack thereof).

I have several close friends with the game and they all agree with me that sim mode just isnt any fun for them, as its far to frustrating. They and I prefer arcade at this point, though we have tried realistic a few times. But the way things are in realistic and having no option to set some things on/off really puts a downer on the fun, which is the whole reason we play the game in the first place.

Its not about personal opinion in the end however. Its about knowing the market and selling titles. I personally think its selling well simply due to the fact that its a damn good game. Its nothing to do with "the challenge", its simply well made, looks fantastic, and most of all is fun.

[merro]

For me also the best Flight Game ever on a console, esp. the sim mode online rocks!!!

[Anton Yudintsev]

By not having the full range of controls available it precludes any full simulation game. Your forgetting that the vast majority of xbox players do not own flight sticks, and frankly actually getting one retail can be a next to impossible task. That means that the flight model simply must be simplified to some extent to allow a joypad to work. Your also forgetting that consoles themselves do not have the same computing power as a PC does. That means that there also has to be some simplfication of the game engine to accomodate console hardware. The visuals themselves take a lot out of the sytems, theres not much left for heavy physics calculations that are required of a full sim game.

While you partially right about controls, you are completely wrong about computing power.
Mainstream PCs are still worse than next-gen consoles.
X360 has 4 PowerPC cores.
PS3 has 6 SPUs - powerfull computing units.
Most of video is done on videochip.

BoP is using exactly the same flightmodel for Sim mode as the original Il-2 (1946), and still allows hundreds of planes in the air.

As for controls - gamepad has a lot of analogue axis and analogue(!) buttons.
You can count by yourself, but it is more than most of flightsticks (of course, button count is less than 101 keyboard). And we can use key-combos to allow enormous combinations.

However, the concept of key-combos is very hardcore and unfriendly to most of the players, both arcade and simmers.
That's why we are actually limited with controls. And of course we can't rely that player will have keyboard/mouse/flightstick. Most of gamers have, but won't use it.
Console gaming is '10-feet gaming'. You are sitting on a sofa with a gamepad, in 10 feets from TV.
For keyboard/mouse/stick - you'd better use table/armchair. That's the main difference.

[Lexandro]

I hate to do this but I have to point out that people that game on PCs tend to have systems that far exceed what would be considered "mainstream" a year or two ago. Quad cores have been on the market for some time now, AMD and Intel both have 2nd generation quad core processors on the market. These far exceed the 360 processor capabilites.

In graphics alone, the consoles cant hold a candle to a modern gaming PC. I have the same games for both 360 and PC and while the 360 version will struggle to play above 30fps on my screen, the PC version on my rig will do double that fps. Gears of War/HAWX/Mass Effect all play at much higher resolutions than the upscaled 720p of the 360 and at much better frame rates.

Nvidia themselves stated many months ago they had exceeded the RSX's graphics ability with a "mainstream" desktop card. Other developers have already stated that many PC games simply cant be done for consoles are they are not powerfull enough. Crytek the most vocal of this with its cryengine2. So much so they are making a new engine just for consoles, that is a "lite" version of CE2.


EDIT* Controler wise, a pad does not have the same finese of movement that a flight stick has. Also many flight sticks feature multiples of buttons even on cheaper units. A cheap 50 buck joystick will have a hat switch, throttle control, rudder control, and usually around 10 buttons all of which are much more capable than a joypad. A pad is good but a good stick is far far better.

Also they are not "next gen" anymore, its this generation.

[TexRoadkill]

I bought this game because of the Realistic and Sim modes. I've tried the demos for all the 360 flight games and this is the first one I had to buy. I'm glad there aren't a lot of complicated controls to deal with. That always turned me off in PC flight sims. I think it's possible to have a 'sim experience' without having to duplicate every single input that a real pilot would have to provide. To me the sim experience is more about allowing you to deal with the realistic challenges of flight and air combat without having to memorize a bunch of different key combos to deal with engine managment and seat warmers.

I seem to have a a lot of trouble finding my adversaries in MP dogfights on sim though. But since they seem to have no problem finding me I'm going to assume that's my fault and not the game. :)

[loopdreams]

This is true now although I'm not sure that it always will be. Gone are the days when the incentive to get a quick PC was that you could play games that were a whole quantum leap away from what you got on the consoles. Nowadays a lot of PC games are pretty shonky afterthoughts but with slightly shinier graphics. I tend to play PC games every few years when I need a new PC anyway so I have a few years worth of titles to catch up on. But this last time I was really quite taken aback by just how little I'd been missing out on.

[Anton Yudintsev]

I hate to do this but I have to point out that people that game on PCs tend to have systems that far exceed what would be considered "mainstream" a year or two ago. Quad cores have been on the market for some time now, AMD and Intel both have 2nd generation quad core processors on the market. These far exceed the 360 processor capabilites.


Nope :)
Check here: http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/
Those are people, who actually game.
And, Operating system is also occupying some resources.

No need to argue - I believe you, that you and you friends have only Quad Cores at home, with superb videocards.
But that's not mainstream. And you need to rely on mainstream to make sales.

That won't be a problem in a year, I am sure.
But right now - current-gen(OK) consoles are still better in computing and about equal in video capabilities.

But on consoles, however, you have a fixed and defined architecture and hardware, and can make application much more optimal with much less time (and money). So, in a next year or even two the best optimized games (for broad audience) will appear on consoles.

Than (next year) we'll get the new cycle in the infinite spiral 'consoles vs. PC', and PC versions of the game would be always better on a target hardware, and than there will be new generation.

Of course, right now modern PCs are doing better.

[King Jareth]

I love sims but I cant play sim games on my PC. Its just not good enough and I cant justify the expense of upgrading just for that especially when I have a 360 sitting 7 feet away.
So I take what I can get.

I got RacePro as soon as it came out and play it as Sim as I can and now I play IL2 online on Sim mode.
No neither are as 'sim' as their PC counterparts and I do get highly jealous of the PC modding communities (which is the major difference between the 2 formats IMO) but for me its a lot of fun with little hastle and I love it.

I suppose you could call me a casual simmer or sim lite gamer.

[Lexandro]

Anton, the steam survey is nowhere near an accurate representation of the average gaming system. Ive had steam for about 5 years and still have never done the survey as have many others on Steam. Also not everyone who games actually has Steam. I know of a several people who simply refuse to use it due to previous issues with the system.

In short its not accurate, and if thats what you are basing your projected sales on, I honestly suggest you invest in some market research by an approved agent for any future developement.

And as for your comment on my rig. I have 2 PC's, this one is in the living room and has an AMD X2 CPU 2gb Ram and an HD 3870, while my main rig has a Phenom2, 4gb ram and a single 4870. I was going to go crossfire but decided against it in favour of buying a 360. Its currently needing a new OS install as I just replaced a defective HDD (damn you Hitachi!), and im waiting on my Win7 pre-order coming. And I regularly chat with people who have much more powerfull systems than me, plus they have several systems which they use to fold with.

And in graphics, iirc the exact statement by Nvidia was "We now have a card that makes the PS3's RSX obsolete", and that was oh about a year ago now.

EDIT* Oh yeah and take a look at GTAIV for the PC. It FAR exceeds what you term "mainstream" in its system requirements and it has still sold well on the PC.

[mondo]

I think its probably worth pointing out that this is the FIRST console flight simulator.

HAWX, ace combat etc are not simulators by any stretch of the imagination.

They have about as much in common with simulators as Katamari has to real life. ;)

[Anton Yudintsev]

Anton, the steam survey is nowhere near an accurate representation of the average gaming system. Ive had steam for about 5 years and still have never done the survey as have many others on Steam. Also not everyone who games actually has Steam. I know of a several people who simply refuse to use it due to previous issues with the system.

In short its not accurate, and if thats what you are basing your projected sales on, I honestly suggest you invest in some market research by an approved agent for any future developement.

I assume as you have better publicly (or even privately) available survey?
If not, than do not assume there is one :)


EDIT* Oh yeah and take a look at GTAIV for the PC. It FAR exceeds what you term "mainstream" in its system requirements and it has still sold well on the PC.

Not even close to consoles.

[dazz1971]

i dont care either way THIS GAME ROCKS !!! and im having so much fun playing it each to there own i guess ive had ace combat6 hawx and they are nothing compared to this game ive been waiting so long for a game like this to come out now i have a great game i can finally get my teeth into and progress with unlike most games i own on xbox that once you complete them there is nothing to draw you back to and they all end up gathering dust on my shelf
ive been playing this game nonstop since i got it and that is something rare to me with console game

oh and i have a powerfull pc setup so could easy play latest games on it but to be honest i cant be arsed with all the installing and then downloading and updating withe the latest patch just to play a game some games ive got for pc ive had to sit there fannying around with patches etc for 2-3 hours just to have a quick go not fun imho!!

[aceofdaves]

Sure cockpits are nice and all but theres no zoom in on instruments so they are pratically useless.


I'd agree, I think sim would benefit from having heading displayed on the hud along with alt and speed. The cockpits are nice it's got to be impossible to optimise the cockpit view for both seeing the enemy, where you're going and be aware of your instruments without being able to move the pilots 'eyes'. Perhaps when the altered look-around controls come into effect with the dlc this will be partially addressed.



I have several close friends with the game and they all agree with me that sim mode just isnt any fun for them, as its far to frustrating. They and I prefer arcade at this point, though we have tried realistic a few times. But the way things are in realistic and having no option to set some things on/off really puts a downer on the fun, which is the whole reason we play the game in the first place.

Its not about personal opinion in the end however. Its about knowing the market and selling titles. I personally think its selling well simply due to the fact that its a damn good game. Its nothing to do with "the challenge", its simply well made, looks fantastic, and most of all is fun.

I'd disagree here. It's all about personal opinion and the fact that both you and Axe99 both like the same game for completely different reasons is testament to how well the devs have understood and catered for the various corners of the market!

[King Jareth]

You can use the zoom and freelook at the same time to zoom in on the instuments.

[Dubbedinenglish]

For me it is this and Warhawk are the best this gen. AC6 was not as good as its PS2 predecessors and HAWX nerfed the fun in flying with the hand holding assist modes.

IL-2 and Warhawk are two different approaches on flight, Warhawk being a very arcade, but extremely fun game and IL-2 being a sim.

I've put in over 300 hours in Warhawk and I can see the same for this game.

[aceofdaves]

You can. To clarify, what I really meant is it'll be easier to have a 'quick glance' down when you don't have to depress the right stick.

[Dexter]

there hasn't been much in the way of flight combat this gen. I own HAWX and Ace Combat 6, and was disappointed with both of them. I haven't experienced dogfighting this good in many years, since Rogue Leader for gamecube. I think it's the best this gen, what do you think?

To date, the best any gen, PC or console IMO.

I have had IL-2 on my PC systems for the last 7 years. Each new system I build, each new OS I install, IL-2 for me has always been part of the installation process. Sometimes it has been the only game on my system.

Today I uninstalled it.

BoP has set the bar. The look and feel is perfect. The cinematic effects are superb (please can we have replay!?).

If it was available for PC I don't think I'd install it, even though I have a very good SSD based system.
BoP belongs on my 40" 1080p Samsung running on my PS3 and the more I fly with the T-Flight HX, the more I love it.
Can't wait to fix the deadzone.

[PoetSaskia]

yeah Xplay said its the best flight combat game they've ever played on a console.

[QBlackDeathQ]

I have AC6/Hawx/Over-G and now IL2. I can say for certain that IL2 is THE BEST flight game for consoles ever made. The thing about modern flight sims is that 99% or the time you never actually see your opponents due to the supreme range of missiles. Arcade wise this usually results in games where all you do is wait for tone and fire to get a kill.

By having the game in WW2, we are once more returned to a fight & flight scenario. Gunnery is key to victory, and skill at getting "guns on". There are a few issues I have with it as a title for console.

Sim mode I feel is a waste of time, as do many other console players. If I want a "sim" game I play PC, thats what its best at. Arcade style games is where the consoles strength is. I mean no offence to anyone who plays it, whatever floats your boat. Me though I see Arcade and Realistic as the two core modes to the game.

Realistic for a stick, Arcade for a pad.

But all in all, with a few minor tweaks I would give IL2 BoP a very good 9.5/10 score. I currently rate it at 8.8 ( lack of SP options/controls definitions etc).

I think arcade and realistic are a waste of time. It might just be me but a kill in those modes feels fake you really dont have to work hard for it. you just lock on and follow the arrows, flaps flight corrections are all done for you. simply put a kill does not feel like a kill. in sim you work just to track your target, and it all comes togeather when you squeeze off a few rounds and your target goes up in flames.

[antdavidl]

there hasn't been much in the way of flight combat this gen. I own HAWX and Ace Combat 6, and was disappointed with both of them. I haven't experienced dogfighting this good in many years, since Rogue Leader for gamecube. I think it's the best this gen, what do you think?
I also agree that is the best we have in current consoles ... but I also think it is the only.

There is a lot of missing possibility ... I wish the market allows the developer to return with all them in the future, either paying for them or not ...

[PoetSaskia]

BoP is using exactly the same flightmodel for Sim mode as the original Il-2 (1946), and still allows hundreds of planes in the air.
Hundreds, you say? Are there really missions with hundreds of planes in the air? I'm not very far into the game, but I'm looking forward to some massive air battles. I want to know more about that!

[AV 1611]

This is my favorite thread! It really provides an honest in-depth view for SIM fans who are looking to buy BOP. Great questions and answers gentlemen:!: :grin:

[AV 1611]

To date, the best any gen, PC or console IMO.

I have had IL-2 on my PC systems for the last 7 years. Each new system I build, each new OS I install, IL-2 for me has always been part of the installation process. Sometimes it has been the only game on my system.

Today I uninstalled it.

BoP has set the bar. The look and feel is perfect. The cinematic effects are superb (please can we have replay!?).

If it was available for PC I don't think I'd install it, even though I have a very good SSD based system.
BoP belongs on my 40" 1080p Samsung running on my PS3 and the more I fly with the T-Flight HX, the more I love it.
Can't wait to fix the deadzone.

YOu said it DEXTER! Replay and FLY-BY camera view is essential! BOP PS3 ROCKS! :grin: