Why the need for German planes?

[Lightsped]

From what I can tell, we are never (except for one recon mission) going to use German planes in single player. Why are they included?

I was really hoping to play as a German pilot and get to use the Luftwaffe planes on missions.

I don't do the multiplayer games yet since they are hard to find, and everyone keeps crashing.

The only thing I can think of to do with the Luftwaffe planes are the Training games where you can setup single player games.

[MorgothNL]

They dont let you fly for germany... because it was unethical or something..
And you would be playing for the losing side.. (its more or less what anton said)
^^ they do have a point there... but on the other hand.. the germans sure did win airbattles.. so why not play those? I gues its big enough as it is like this ;)

[Lightsped]

I was hoping to fly for the Germans like I did in the old PC games called "Their Finest Hour", and "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe". Its more fun to play as Germans since they did have some really good aircraft towards the end of the war.

If we can play as Germans on COD World at War, Wolfenstien, etc... then I don't see why we shouldn't be able to fly for the Luftwaffe.....

[H Lecter]

I was hoping to fly for the Germans like I did in the old PC games called "Their Finest Hour", and "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe". Its more fun to play as Germans since they did have some really good aircraft towards the end of the war.

If we can play as Germans on COD World at War, Wolfenstien, etc... then I don't see why we shouldn't be able to fly for the Luftwaffe.....

Gaijin will give us many things, but Anton kind of made clear that a German campaign is not one of them. He really became kind of emotional back then and I would not argue about it.

I also had troubles finding multiplayer games, but as more people buy the game (in some countries it has just been released) and finish the SP missions we will see an increasing influx to the MP servers. And there it would be kind of ridiculous seeing RAF and USAF planes battling each other, that's why we got all the nice Luftwaffe toys. :)

[King Jareth]

And there it would be kind of ridiculous seeing RAF and USAF planes battling each other, that's why we got all the nice Luftwaffe toys. :)

I always hoped you'd be able to force one team to take Axis and one team to take allied planes online, its weird in team games trying to confirm who's ahead of you before you fire*.
"anyone in a hurricane mkII?"
"yes
"you got a spitfire behind you?
"no
-start firing-

*I know you have to do some friend or foe recognition but at least real WWII pilots didn't have to worry about what nationality planes their wingmen were flying that day.

[M3-SRT8]

Sure. But ol' Anton has no problem with anybody flying and fighting for that Communist Utopia, the (former) USSR.

Again, how many people were outright executed, worked, beaten, and starved to death under Stalin? 20 million? 25? More?

...and, Lenin, Khruschchev, Brezhnev, and the rest of the Politburo, how many did they do in? According to Guiness, collectively it's around 66.5 million people.

Just because these people didn't agree to these monsters vision of a "workers paradise."

Go ahead and lock the thread. My point's made.

LJB:cool:

[Lightsped]

I still think it would be more fun for everyone if we could fly for the Luftwaffe. This has been done in numerous video games in the past. By flying for the Luftwaffe, it would allow the game to expand alot more by giving players more choices and more experience with the various types of planes.

From a marketing/money standpoint it makes sense. Just look at all of the COD games. And that is just one game title.....

[H Lecter]

Sure. But ol' Anton has no problem with anybody flying and fighting for that Communist Utopia, the (former) USSR.

Doesn't matter. Anton and his brother (?) Kyril are the producers. They make the game the way they believe is 'right' and we as customers can provide feedback and/or decide not to buy it.

Political discussions are more than useless in this forum and will only create hardship among the forum members.

[Yossarian]

I always hoped you'd be able to force one team to take Axis and one team to take allied planes online, its weird in team games trying to confirm who's ahead of you before you fire*.
"anyone in a hurricane mkII?"
"yes
"you got a spitfire behind you?
"no
-start firing-

*I know you have to do some friend or foe recognition but at least real WWII pilots didn't have to worry about what nationality planes their wingmen were flying that day.

I thought even in sim mode you get a coloured box around aircraft when they are close in every mode other than dogfight. You don't get a direction indicator when they are off screen or the distance to then, but enemy planes do have a red box around them when closer than 2km and in view. I could be wrong I've only ever found one sim team battle game since the game came out.

[Anton Yudintsev]

Sure. But ol' Anton has no problem with anybody flying and fighting for that Communist Utopia, the (former) USSR.

Again, how many people were outright executed, worked, beaten, and starved to death under Stalin? 20 million? 25? More?


First of all, I am not against fighting for axis airbattles. I was against them in Birds of Prey. It is our first console flight-sim, and we were going to make it as flawless as possible.
Fighting for Axis, even in game, is not 100% ethical.

Second, please, don't re-type bullshit about USSR. Of course, there were executions, but nothing close to 20 million, even number of all prisoners (with criminals, like thiefs or bandits), not all of them executed, is less than that. Less than 1 million of executions (but close to), is something very huge, but it isn't anyhow close to what Axis did. It's something close to what USA did to thier people during great depression.

Also, the main differences is reasoning. Axis - were executing people because of their _race_. Stalin - was just a dictator, he was trying to keep power (and did it not for his own wealth, but for the country - that's was how he understood 'lesser evil' concept).

Every country has it's black pages. But in Birds of Prey gamers (like real soldiers of world war2) are not fighting for Stalin or against some of his opposers. Those days people were fighting for freedom, for survival - against evil. Not all of Germans were Nazis of course. Not even most of them. But all German soldiers were fighting for Nazi.

It doesn't mean that fighting for Axis airforce in any game is 100% unethical.
But on the other hand, fighting for Allies IS 100% ethical.

[Lightsped]

I am not really interested in the good and the bad things that various countries have done in the past. Save that for the history books.....

I am interested in having a fun flying game with more replayablity and options. This idea is not something new as many game publishers/developers have produced high selling games featuring Allies and the Axis powers of WW2....

Anyone here ever heard of LucasArts "Their Finest Hour" or "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe"??? Both of these WW2 flying games were made in the 1990s, and were very successful.... How about Call of Duty? Are those who play as the Germans or Japananese committing unethical acts??

[Shub]

I really appreciate to read Anton's point of view concerning the german's campaign. I have read the full previous thread concerning the same issue and would like to thank him for taking the time to reply to us.

Anton, I assume that people are mainly refering to the starvation in Ukrain when talking of a 20 million death toll for USSR...

Anyway, I respect the devs' decision concerning the german campaign. But, still, I would welcome more german or japanese sp missions.

[H Lecter]

Anyway, I respect the devs' decision concerning the german campaign. But, still, I would welcome more german or japanese sp missions.

Concluding from Anton's reply in this thread I guess there could be an Axis campaign in BoP II or eventually as DLC... :)

[M3-SRT8]

First of all, I am not against fighting for axis airbattles. I was against them in Birds of Prey. It is our first console flight-sim, and we were going to make it as flawless as possible.
Fighting for Axis, even in game, is not 100% ethical.

Second, please, don't re-type bullshit about USSR. Of course, there were executions, but nothing close to 20 million, even number of all prisoners (with criminals, like thiefs or bandits), not all of them executed, is less than that. Less than 1 million of executions (but close to), is something very huge, but it isn't anyhow close to what Axis did. It's something close to what USA did to thier people during great depression.

Also, the main differences is reasoning. Axis - were executing people because of their _race_. Stalin - was just a dictator, he was trying to keep power (and did it not for his own wealth, but for the country - that's was how he understood 'lesser evil' concept).

Every country has it's black pages. But in Birds of Prey gamers (like real soldiers of world war2) are not fighting for Stalin or against some of his opposers. Those days people were fighting for freedom, for survival - against evil. Not all of Germans were Nazis of course. Not even most of them. But all German soldiers were fighting for Nazi.

It doesn't mean that fighting for Axis airforce in any game is 100% unethical.
But on the other hand, fighting for Allies IS 100% ethical.

Oh, please. You're going to defend Stalin?

From 1931-1933 ALONE, about 3-5 million Ukranians starved to death from the forced Collectivization due to Stalin's "policies." He could have cared less.

Oh, right. They did it for the collective "Good of The Soviet Union."

I won't relist all the atrocities conducted under Stalin's Reign of Terror. Any number of books on the market by Robert Service, Simon Sebag Montefiore, etc, can do it better than I.

The point is, Stalin, who entered into a deal with Hitler in August 1939, so that the latter could START the Second World War, and who grabbed Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, and Half of Poland, then immediately rounded up and executed their people in the Ten's of Thousands (remember the Katyn Massacre?) was just as bad, if not worse, Than Hitler.

I don't want to "fight" for Der Fuhrer, any more than I want to fight for Koba (Stalin's nickname). I just would like to fly ALL the airplanes involved in the conflict.

..., and I don't think I'm alone.

LJB:cool:

[Apeboy]

First of all, I am not against fighting for axis airbattles. I was against them in Birds of Prey. It is our first console flight-sim, and we were going to make it as flawless as possible.
Fighting for Axis, even in game, is not 100% ethical.

Second, please, don't re-type bullshit about USSR. Of course, there were executions, but nothing close to 20 million, even number of all prisoners (with criminals, like thiefs or bandits), not all of them executed, is less than that. Less than 1 million of executions (but close to), is something very huge, but it isn't anyhow close to what Axis did. It's something close to what USA did to thier people during great depression.

Also, the main differences is reasoning. Axis - were executing people because of their _race_. Stalin - was just a dictator, he was trying to keep power (and did it not for his own wealth, but for the country - that's was how he understood 'lesser evil' concept).

Every country has it's black pages. But in Birds of Prey gamers (like real soldiers of world war2) are not fighting for Stalin or against some of his opposers. Those days people were fighting for freedom, for survival - against evil. Not all of Germans were Nazis of course. Not even most of them. But all German soldiers were fighting for Nazi.

It doesn't mean that fighting for Axis airforce in any game is 100% unethical.
But on the other hand, fighting for Allies IS 100% ethical.

Don't diminish the Seaman, Airman and Soldier that had no choice but to engage in combat for the Axis.

50+ years later watching some toymaker making "ethical" judgments is abhorrent.

How about get back to fixing your "flawless" game which profits from the death and destruction of millions of people from 1937-1945. How is that for ethical?

[IamKFAM]

Dudes... while I am happy that you are getting to drag out some of the finer points you learned while getting your European History Masters degrees...

I don't think this line of commentary is going to aid in getting ANYTHING fixed.

How's about we stick to the game itself at let the 18,250 days of armchair quarterbacking go to another more appropriate venue?

[H Lecter]

Oh, please. You're going to defend Stalin?

From 1931-1933 ALONE, about 3-5 million Ukranians starved to death from the forced Collectivization due to Stalin's "policies." He could have cared less.

Nevertheless he was good enough to be an ally of the US and Britain, wasn't he?

How do you plan to win this argument by hurting other people's national feelings? Anton is proud of his forefathers fighting against Nazi Germany and has every right to be. Spreading offense in this forum is not going to help.

[M3-SRT8]

Dudes... while I am happy that you are getting to drag out some of the finer points you learned while getting your European History Masters degrees...

I don't think this line of commentary is going to aid in getting ANYTHING fixed.

How's about we stick to the game itself at let the 18,250 days of armchair quarterbacking go to another more appropriate venue?

All I'm saying is, Anton's reason for excluding German aircraft from the players is bullshite, and I'm illustrating the reasons why it is BS.

It's a fine game. I'm going to BUY it, fer chrissake. He deserves a Job Well Done, from Me, and everybody else here.

LJB:cool:

[Yossarian]

Nevertheless he was good enough to be an ally of the US and Britain, wasn't he?

How do you plan to win this argument by hurting other people's national feelings? Anton is proud of his forefathers fighting against Nazi Germany and has every right to be. Spreading offense in this forum is not going to help.

Agreed, even though our great ally 'Uncle Joe' was another Hitler that does not detract from the fact that Russia was invaded, millions of Russians died because of the Nazi's and they fought a Great Patriotic War and essentially won the war in Europe, something to be proud of.

[M3-SRT8]

Nevertheless he was good enough to be an ally of the US and Britain, wasn't he?

How do you plan to win this argument by hurting other people's national feelings? Anton is proud of his forefathers fighting against Nazi Germany and has every right to be. Spreading offense in this forum is not going to help.

I'm not attemting to hurt anybody. NOTHING in History is Black & White, Good and Bad. Including our belated alliance with the USSR.

Hell, the United States rounded up and killed about 70,000 Phillipinos when they took it over from the Spanish after the Spanish-American War. In the Second World War, Daylight "Precision" Bombing by the US 5th and 8th Air Force killed Civilians in the Hundreds of Thousands. I'm not, as an American, walking the Earth in white saffron robes thinking I'm superior to all cultures. EVERY country has a dark past, and a dark present, and, undoubtedly, a dark future.

For THAT reason, excluding German Aircraft, for purely personal, or political reasons, is pure BS.

LJB:cool:

[H Lecter]

I'm not attemting to hurt anybody. NOTHING in History is Black & White, Good and Bad. Including our belated alliance with the USSR.

True words mate.And I would have loved to fly at least some German missions just because I happen to like their planes as much as the allied ones.

Anton obviously does not rule it out for a second part of the series so I'm happy that we can fly those Bf-109's and FW190's in MP and even with cockpits soon and wait for the next game to fly them in SP.

[towman]

Fighting for Axis, even in game, is not 100% ethical.

Every country has it's black pages. But in Birds of Prey gamers (like real soldiers of world war2) are not fighting for Stalin or against some of his opposers. Those days people were fighting for freedom, for survival - against evil. Not all of Germans were Nazis of course. Not even most of them. But all German soldiers were fighting for Nazi.

WOW!!! This is the biggest cop out I ever read about a game design. How come in the original Il-2 game you could fly axis missions?
There were many aspects flying axis planes in history that were nothing to do with "Nazis" or their agenda. The Hungarian Pumas for example, took off against insurmountable odds, bringing 8-12 planes against hundreds daily in late 44, early 45. They didn't fight for the Nazis, they took off to protect their country.
You could probably find many examples that would make great game play without bringing the "Nazis" into it, and still allows players to fly the axis planes in a meaningful experience.
Anyway don't talk too much ethics into a game, you may lock yourself out from a possibility of a profitable DLC axis campaign.

[BadByte]

Anyone here ever heard of LucasArts "Their Finest Hour" or "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe"??? Both of these WW2 flying games were made in the 1990s, and were very successful....

Loved SWOTL it is the game I have spent most hours on and it is one of very rare games one could fight as the axis and "win" in campaign mode. To this date I have not found a flight game with a more fun career mode.

[BadByte]

First of all, I am not against fighting for axis airbattles. I was against them in Birds of Prey. It is our first console flight-sim, and we were going to make it as flawless as possible.
Fighting for Axis, even in game, is not 100% ethical.

I guess my memory is corrupted but I could have sworn I remember that IL2 1946 contains several Axis campaigns such as Luftwaffe fighter/bomber/divebomber, Imperial Navy figher/bomber, Imperial Army figher campaigns.

[36th Ulster Division]

Well thats it for me, I'm not flying any German plane with a big black cross on it, as its unethical.

Ps, I couldn't really care what plane, I fly ethical or not, thats the choice I can have, as my wife's grandfather faught above the sky's of France and Britain, as one of the few, to allow me to make this choice (and to type this in English).

Its only a game after all.

[GabeFan]

Anyone here ever heard of LucasArts "Their Finest Hour" or "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe"??? Both of these WW2 flying games were made in the 1990s, and were very successful.... H

SWOTL was such a great game! Logged many hours of flying time on that game. Being able to choose between flying for the Axis or Allies was fun. And it wasn't very difficult to actually fly the planes. It wasn't a hardcore SIM that you have to take hours just to learn to keep the plane in the air, which was nice. You could jump right in and start flying...

[Shub]

I guess my memory is corrupted but I could have sworn I remember that IL2 1946 contains several Axis campaigns such as Luftwaffe fighter/bomber/divebomber, Imperial Navy figher/bomber, Imperial Army figher campaigns.

He said that they did not want Axis campaigns in BoP... Not in IL2 PC.

[David603]

It doesn't mean that fighting for Axis airforce in any game is 100% unethical.
But on the other hand, fighting for Allies IS 100% ethical.
No. That statement is completely incorrect. If you want to break down the ethical rights and wrongs of fighting for individual countries during WWII in a game into percentages, which is a flawed concept in itself, then you will find that it would be less than 100% ethical to fight for just about any country.

Obviously, some countries have cleaner hands than others, but if I was going to make a list of countries that could be considered as completely ethical to fight for I would have to exclude any country that attacked another without provocation (Germany/USSR/Japan/Italy), as a policy deliberately targeted civilians in a country that they were at war with(Germany/USA/UK/Japan), were responsible for or condoned war crimes (No entirely clean hands here) or carried out crimes against their own people in the interests of maintaining control(Germany/USSR/Vichy France).

So, what are we left with? Off the top of my head I can only think of Finland, which was incidentally an Axis country for most of the war, and Poland. Some of the smaller central European and Asian countries didn't have a say in the matter at all. And that's about it.

[towman]

It is our first console flight-sim, and we were going to make it as flawless as possible.

To many of us the missing axis campaign is an actual flaw of the game, so in some aspect, you failed.

Should have concentrated on control and multiplayer issues instead of bullshit ethical dilemmas.

[fuzzychickens]

First of all, I am not against fighting for axis airbattles. I was against them in Birds of Prey. It is our first console flight-sim, and we were going to make it as flawless as possible.
Fighting for Axis, even in game, is not 100% ethical.

Second, please, don't re-type bullshit about USSR. Of course, there were executions, but nothing close to 20 million, even number of all prisoners (with criminals, like thiefs or bandits), not all of them executed, is less than that. Less than 1 million of executions (but close to), is something very huge, but it isn't anyhow close to what Axis did. It's something close to what USA did to thier people during great depression.

Also, the main differences is reasoning. Axis - were executing people because of their _race_. Stalin - was just a dictator, he was trying to keep power (and did it not for his own wealth, but for the country - that's was how he understood 'lesser evil' concept).

Every country has it's black pages. But in Birds of Prey gamers (like real soldiers of world war2) are not fighting for Stalin or against some of his opposers. Those days people were fighting for freedom, for survival - against evil. Not all of Germans were Nazis of course. Not even most of them. But all German soldiers were fighting for Nazi.

It doesn't mean that fighting for Axis airforce in any game is 100% unethical.
But on the other hand, fighting for Allies IS 100% ethical.

There were plenty of Axis pilots defending their families from bombing raids who did not subscribe to Nazi ideology.

I don't think any side in most wars can claim to be 100% ethical. Nothing is black and white.

[jjsrx]

May be there will be a DLC called Luftwaffe...where you can use these top secret Luftwaffe fighter to go through a series top secret mission.
http://www.byerly.org/thollowt/nazi_ufo2.jpg

[H Lecter]

May be there will be a DLC called Luftwaffe...where you can use these top secret Luftwaffe fighter to go through a series top secret mission.

If they bring UFO's to the game I'll never touch it again. I'm serious :-P

[M3-SRT8]

No. That statement is completely incorrect. If you want to break down the ethical rights and wrongs of fighting for individual countries during WWII in a game into percentages, which is a flawed concept in itself, then you will find that it would be less than 100% ethical to fight for just about any country.

Obviously, some countries have cleaner hands than others, but if I was going to make a list of countries that could be considered as completely ethical to fight for I would have to exclude any country that attacked another without provocation (Germany/USSR/Japan/Italy), as a policy deliberately targeted civilians in a country that they were at war with(Germany/USA/UK/Japan), were responsible for or condoned war crimes (No entirely clean hands here) or carried out crimes against their own people in the interests of maintaining control(Germany/USSR/Vichy France).

So, what are we left with? Off the top of my head I can only think of Finland, which was incidentally an Axis country for most of the war, and Poland. Some of the smaller central European and Asian countries didn't have a say in the matter at all. And that's about it.

Excactly.

On balance, I'll take the Allies, except the USSR, over the Axis, in the "Ethics" department. With the USSR employing Blocking Units, machine gunning their own soldiers, punishing whole families whose soldiers were unlucky enough to be captured in the many encirclement battles from 1941-44, uprooting whole enthic groups and transporting them thousands of miles away for poltical purposes, scortched earth policies that left hundreds of thousands of their own people freezing to death behind enemy lines, etc etc, I can hardly consider the Politburo as benevolent to their own people.

Now, as for the Brave Russians, Ukrainians, Cossacks, Siberians, etc etc etc, my hats off to You. YOU were responsible for kicking the Germans out of your country, IN SPITE of Stalin and his Purges, his millitary blundering, his Terror.

As for the other allies, the Brits and the Americans hands are dirty in this affair. Specifically, I refer to the Allied Strategic Bombing Offensive against Germany and Her Allies. Night bombing raids by the British, and Daylight "Precision" Bombing by the Americans were responsible, in retrospect, in countless hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths.

You could argue, convincingly, that a formation of Stukas are more 'humane' than a wing of B-17Gs in terms of effectiveness in taking out a target without incurring excessive non-combatants. You take 12 B-17Gs, each with 8 500lb gp bombs, for a total of 96. In a typical raid, flown at 20,000 feet, jinking through a flak corridor, you'd be lucky to get a couple of bombs directly on target. Where did the rest go? God forbid as Americans that we'd give it much thought.

And, what did it buy us? Not much, as German weapon production soared through 1944-45. That, and a lot of German cities demolished.

As for the Stukas, their individual bomb placement, against tactical targets, of course, could be measured within 50 yards of the target, and frequently MUCH less. Direct Hits were common amongst their highly trained formations. If bombing accuracy is a measure of 'humaneness' in War, you could certainly argue that the Dive Bomber is far more accurate and far more humane. Assuming, of course, they are used against strictly military targets.

Put it this way. It took Nazi Germany, what, 6 weeks to overrun France in a Blitzkrieg? 8 months to overrun all of Europe? It took the Allies 5 Years to take it all back.

It's crazy, I know, arguing about Stukas as a "humane" weapon. It doesn't jibe with all that footage on The History Channel. I only use it to illustrate the fact that, in War, NO party has white gloves.

But, there are lots of shades of grey....

Make the German Aircraft available to ALL players. It's the Right Thing To Do.

LJB:cool:

[PantherAttack2]

1- About the points such as 'being able to play German/ Japanese in COD'. Those were in multiplayer, which is just the same as flying German planes in BoP multiplayer. The point people should be making is that they didn't have campaigns in COD for the Germans or Japanese.

2- I'm not going into any politics or ethics discussion here, but they could have put in a German campaign for BoP, but they didn't. It doesn't matter for what reason, but they didn't, so everyone stop whining about it. It could be in later DLC, it could not. It's a fine game as it is.

[Soviet Ace]

I just want to say, that in war. It doesn't matter what side your on. American, German, Russian, Japanese, Italian etc. It just doesn't matter. All sides get their hands dirty one way or another. So saying that flying a German plane is unethical is complete bullshit. I don't agree or like what Hitler did, but if we're going to start saying we shouldn't fly them because Germany in WW2 was unethical, then we shouldn't be allowed to fly American planes. All around the US, Japanese-Americans were rounded up and put in "concentration camps" out here in the west. The Italians killed thousands of Ethiopian's and Japan, we already know what they did to the Chinese and Koreans etc.

So flying German, Italian and American planes, I think should be banned from the game if some of us are going to say what's ethical to fly and what's not. We shouldn't even have this game then since flying German, American, Italian, and British planes would be unethical.

That's all I want, and am going to say on the matter.

[juz1]

They dont let you fly for germany... because it was unethical or something..
And you would be playing for the losing side...
;)
losing side? At least Germany made it to the finals, the Polish and French got knocked out in the opening round....even the Italians made the Semis....
Thank God the RAF's flat back 4 kept the German wingers quiet in the Summer of 1940...







;)
________
Marijuana Vaporizer (http://weedvaporizer.info/)

[M3-SRT8]

1- About the points such as 'being able to play German/ Japanese in COD'. Those were in multiplayer, which is just the same as flying German planes in BoP multiplayer. The point people should be making is that they didn't have campaigns in COD for the Germans or Japanese.

2- I'm not going into any politics or ethics discussion here, but they could have put in a German campaign for BoP, but they didn't. It doesn't matter for what reason, but they didn't, so everyone stop whining about it. It could be in later DLC, it could not. It's a fine game as it is.



Who's whining?

Anton, for purely political reasons, opted to not make German aircraft available to fly.

I, as a consumer, am addressing his political reasons with a political argument. And, judging by a lot of the posts/responses here, on this thread, it seems to be a damn convincing one.

His argument/reasoning for excluding German Aircraft from his customers isn't even one of 'moral relativity.' He says the Allies were "100% Ethical."

Stalin, Beria, Khruschev, Malenkov, Mikoyan, Molotov, Kaganovitch, Yehzov, Blohkin, etc..."100% ethical." Sure, they were. Those guys signed the death warrants for millions of their own countrymen, and hundreds of thousands of eastern block citizens, for the "Good of the Party."

You can't make a case for change without first advancing a convincing argument.

Make the German Aircraft available for All. Political reasoning aside, they were damn fine aircraft.

LJB:cool:

[Gilgenbach]

Hi,

we all know that the political argument is .. well, rubbish. German soldiers were in the least of cases politcal soldiers. They were sons, fathers, brothers and husbands. Not better oder worse than any russian, american or british soldier. They breathed, lived, loved, feared and longed to get home alive.

Regards,

Rob

[King Jareth]

For the love of God lock this thread.

[ORPHEUS ZERO]

Lets not forget the U.S. is also the only nation to ever drop an atomic bomb in combat...twice! Two cities full of innocents were vaporized in the blink of an eye, not to mention the survivors' hell. The truth is, morality and war don't mix. Any attempt to bring a moral resolution, imperative, or doctrine to war is a ruse. "All warfare is based upon deception" When shot at...people have a tendancy to shoot back. And it's always personal.

[IamKFAM]

Good God.

/facepalm/

[loopdreams]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO5WoLnOOlU

[M3-SRT8]

Oh ! Loopdreams! Thank You for that!

Outstanding!

LJB:cool:

[Spitfire23]

oh you've gotta love them two

[Swagger7]

Lets not forget the U.S. is also the only nation to ever drop an atomic bomb in combat...twice! Two cities full of innocents were vaporized in the blink of an eye, not to mention the survivors' hell. The truth is, morality and war don't mix. Any attempt to bring a moral resolution, imperative, or doctrine to war is a ruse. "All warfare is based upon deception" When shot at...people have a tendancy to shoot back. And it's always personal.

True. If anything, I think the 20th century showed us that "civilization" is just a thin veneer, easily destroyed in times of war & hardship. Our ideas and ideals have advanced, but we're all still the exact same species as the barbarians who sacked Rome and the gas chamber operators of Auschwitz. It is through realizing this potential for barbarity inherent in all of us that we can avoid it. I At least that's my take on it.

[n-off]

I also would like some Axis missions. Sturmovik is just a game... no need to get political.
It's always nice to get the big picture by witnessing both points of view.

[mondo]

I also would like some Axis missions. Sturmovik is just a game... no need to get political.
It's always nice to get the big picture by witnessing both points of view.

100% agree. Thats why I've forsaken this game and just play IL2 on the PC like i've done for the last 6 years where I can happily fly German aircraft.

[elneilios]

Has anyone ever played the PC strategy game "Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds"?

If your not familiar with the famous story from H.G. Wells "War of the Worlds" is about Martian's invading Earth because they are jealous of our beautiful planet and want it for themselves. The book is set in Victorian Britain and as such the Martian attack meets little resistance due to the highly advanced technology they possess. It's only due to Mother Nature's defence mechanism, bacteria, that the Martian's are unsuccessful and effectively die from the common cold.

Just in case you are wondering what my point is, the argument given that playing for the loosing side is a bad idea for the game didn't apply to the PC game version of "War of the Worlds" because it was up to the player to choose if he would play as Humanity OR the Martians (even though ultimately you would be playing for the loosing side).

Additionally, what could be more morally wrong than playing as a race of Martian's trying to eradicate Humanity off the face of the Earth?

But the bottom line is, none of this arguing matters because ITS JUST A GAME!!

At the same time, I can completely accept that the developers of BOP didn't want to risk causing offence, best to be on the safe side of course. But why not just say that rather than try and debate about morals and politics? i think the huge amount of political and moral debating going on in this forum is absolutely pointless and inconsequential, it changes nothing and I'm fairly surprised that the developers are even bothering with getting involved in it.

[GCoutinho]

Just my 2 cents regarding the need for German planes :

I don't actually miss a German campaign, but German cockpits are needed for simulator online play (hopefully with a way to restrict the use of planes without cockpits).

My decision regarding buying future DLC depends on mainly on how online play will develop (that's the reason i bought IL2 + Forgotten Battles + Aces Expansion + Pacific Fighters + 1946 for the PC)

[M3-SRT8]

It's not much of a Debate. The majority seems to prefer German Aircraft being completely accessable. And everybody knows that neither side in any conflict are in the complete Right or Wrong.

What would be the risk to the Creators of BOP? They already have it in the PC Version, for some time now, and other game Mfr's seem to have no problem with it in other venues.

LJB :cool:

[bobswar]

i just want to dogfight in a bf-109 g on simulator in the biggest multiplayer match i can find

[imnotgeoff]

all the talk about gettin a german campaign made me think....on the DS version (but whos really gona play that,how awkward would it be) you can pick to do missions as luftwaffe so why cant we on the x360 or ps3??chek this....its a really bad video but i couldnt be bothered to find a proper one...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozjkroG1U5o

[juz1]

that's it...playing as the luftwaffe has warped my fragile mind. I'm off in my VolksWagen Family Panzer to annexe Woolworths. I'll be the one stood up in the sunroof, facist saluting the locals....don't try and stop me:!::!::!:
________
HONDA CBR125R HISTORY (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_CBR125R)

[Yossarian]

that's it...playing as the luftwaffe has warped my fragile mind. I'm off in my VolksWagen Family Panzer to annexe Woolworths. I'll be the one stood up in the sunroof, facist saluting the locals....don't try and stop me:!::!::!:

:grin:

[mausermark]

lol,

It took long enough for someone to find that you can play the Germans in the DS version, that's in fact who I'm playing right now in every campaign. When I finish with them I'll play the Allied side.

So to the Devs, what's the real reason if this is allowed in the DS version?

thanks,

and love the DS game (only version I have for now).

[PantherAttack2]

Ok, now can we lock this thread and move on?

[Flywest]

Lock the thread ? What for ?

[imnotgeoff]

NOO dont lock the thread its a good point

[OVurt]

I'll try to stay out of the political stuff. ;) For Anton, devs, and to others who are concerned about playing the losing side. I can't recall the game from memory, getting old, but I played Axis missions where we succeed in our particular objective for our squadron. But overall, we lost the entire campaign. I think this was in Jane's WW2 Fighters.

As someone else mentioned, it was informative to play on the losing side and learn from that perspective.

Back when I played Jane's WW2 Fighters, we had a group of friends fly as the Axis planes only. Why? Many competitive squads were Allies. Someone had to be the "bad guy." :cool: It is only a game.

Again going off memory, several history books regarding the Luftwaffe presented a point of view not often mentioned. In the early years of WW2, before the US was involved, there was a pilot honor code different than what ground troops experienced. Recall the term, "wagging your wings"? An enemy pilot is damaged and wanted to surrender by wagging his wings, German pilots would let them safely return to their home base, knowing full well, this enemy will come back to kill them. By the time the US entered, many of these aces were dead or captured. The pilot honor code also disappeared. There were many atrocities committed in the air, like shooting at pilots who bailed out and were sitting ducks dangling from their parachute.

History is what it is. Limiting or restricting access to info doesn't help anyone. Just lay it out there for all to see and learn from. Does my interest in Luftwaffe history make me a sympathizer? Hardly. I like reading about both perspectives.

I'm also biased because I want to fly the FW-190D with a full cockpit. Even built a model of one and called it "Baby Boelcke." :cool:

[simfex]

Please, we should not discuss history in here. At first, i am German and I hate this part of German history. If I could, I would make this dammned Hitler and his f...... Nazi devils undone. My part of history is only to help that something like this can not happen again in future,worldwide and not only in Germany.
And when I fly a german plane in this game I don`t do this for the Nazis.
Theese aircraft are never the less a part of my country, and I am sure, not all pilots have been those Nazis sombody thinks. Most of them where soldiers, soldiers and humans, humans with families too.Yes sure also stupid and blind at the beginning of this damned war. But I can not believe that all theese men where damned ******* Nazis. I am sure, most of them only fought for their life. Thanks God for never have seen war in life. There have been so much cruel and horrible things in this war, It is not possible for us to comprehend what has happend in every human at this time, why they all did, what they did, equal on which side they fought. I for myself like all people in this world, equal which country, what kind of colour or religion, when they let me live in peace. When not,........we have to talk.
So, please let be IL2 only a game, not a half game but a really really good game
Good bless you all

[Wissam24]

Well said

[Wissam24]

All I'll say is....a mission trying to defend Dresden is surely easy to justify