Glitched P-51 compared to FW-190 and Spitfire

[Prowlinger]

Here are the core statistics -- (Shows 2 P-51 versions). Notice that there is something really wrong with the speed of the P-51 in game. It should out perform the FW and the Spitfire overall...


P-51D Mustang

Performance

• Maximum speed: 437 mph (703 km/h) at 25,000 ft (7,620 m)
• Cruise speed: 362 mph (580 km/h)
• Stall speed: 100 mph (160 km/h)
• Range: 1,650 mi (2,755 km) with external tanks
• Service ceiling: 41,900 ft (12,770 m)
• Rate of climb: 3,200 ft/min (16.3 m/s)
• Wing loading: 39 lb/ft² (192 kg/m²)
• Power/mass: 0.18 hp/lb (300 W/kg)
• Lift-to-drag ratio: 14.6
• Recommended Mach limit 0.8

P-51H Mustang

Performance
• Maximum speed: 487 mph (784 km/h) at 25,000 ft (7,620 m)
• Range: 1,160 mi (1,865 km) with external tanks
• Service ceiling: 41,600 ft (12,680 m)
• Rate of climb: 3,300 ft/min (16.8 m/s)
• Wing loading: 40.4 lb/ft² (197.4 kg/m²)
• Power/mass: 0.23 hp/lb (385 W/kg)

Specifications (Fw 190 A-8)

Performance
• Maximum speed: 656 km/h at 4,800 m, 685 km/h with boost (383 mph at 19,420 ft (5,920 m), 408 mph (657 km/h) with boost)
• Range: 800 km (500 mi)
• Service ceiling: 11,410 m (37,430 ft)
• Rate of climb: 13 m/s (2,560 ft/min)
• Wing loading: 241 kg/m² (49.4 lb/ft²)
• Power/mass: 0.29-0.33 kW/kg (0.18-0.21 hp/lb)

Specifications (Spitfire Mk Vb)

Performance
• Maximum speed: 378 mph, (330 kn, 605 km/h)
• Combat radius: 410 nmi (470 mi, 760 km)
• Ferry range: 991 nmi (1,140 mi, 1,840 km)
• Service ceiling: 35,000 ft (11,300 m)
• Rate of climb: 2,665 ft/min (13.5 m/s)
• Wing loading: 24.56 lb/ft² (119.91 kg/m²)
• Power/mass: 0.22 hp/lb (0.36 kW/kg)

[The_Goalie_94]

haHa, see, someone on my side about the P-51 and the SPIT. I agree, it should out perform the SPIT in most ways, and the FW-190 in most as welll. The FW-190 is more manuverable by far.

[MorgothNL]

AH... hate this :(.. I've been playing IL2-1946 for many years on the pc... and always hated the in game performance and the guns of the P-51..

Was really looking forward to the P-51 in this game... and now it is the same in this game :(

[Skii]

not suprised its b0rked - its a P-47 !

[Hori]

heh, if the plane perfomed like that during the war, I am amazed the USAAF had any pilots left : /

[Mr_Steven]

Kind of unfair comparing a P-51D to a Spitfire Mk. Vb. That particular Spitfire was produced in 1941, the P-51D not until 1944. I suggest finding the stats for a Mk. IX, or even a XIV considering when the Mustang was actually in combat. You just have to fly it high and fast, never over-committing to an enemy and absolutely never bleeding off your speed. It takes a lot of hours of practice, and a ton of patience, but it is a very rewarding aircraft to fly and succeed in once you've learned how. Fly it like you'd fly a P-38, never EVER turn fight with someone.

[fuzzychickens]

AH... hate this :(.. I've been playing IL2-1946 for many years on the pc... and always hated the in game performance and the guns of the P-51..

Was really looking forward to the P-51 in this game... and now it is the same in this game :(


You are wrong - it's worse.

1. Go into 1946 and get the p51 up to 500kmh and turn as hard as you can.
2. Do the same in BOP

Notice anything? Yea, the highspeed turn performance in 1946 is not in BOP, it turns seemingly slower at high speed than it does in 1946.

This was modelled well in 1946, the high speed elevator authority was useful in combat. Not so in BOP.

Either the flight models are simplified in this game or max deflection in control surfaces was reduced, not sure which but something is fishy in ALL planes.

[David603]

Here are the core statistics -- (Shows 2 P-51 versions). Notice that there is something really wrong with the speed of the P-51 in game. It should out perform the FW and the Spitfire overall...


P-51D Mustang

Performance.........
Full marks for knowing how to copy and paste off wiki.

If you want to compare aircraft though, a more useful way of doing this might be to pick either a), planes we have in the game or b), aircraft that were contemporary to each other.

The P51D first saw service in 1944, so if you want to compare it with its contemporaries you should pick the Spitfire XIV and Fw190D9. Alternatively you could go with what we have in game, which would mean using a Spitfire XVI instead of the Griffon engined Spitfire XIV.

So just the straight line speed and climb rates for these planes,

P51D
Top speed: 437mph at 25,000ft (362mph at sea level)
Climb rate: 3,500ft/min at 8,000ft (3,200ft/min at sea level)

Spitfire XIV(Griffon)
Top speed: 448mph at 25,000ft (360mph at sea level)
Climb rate: 5,000ft/min at sea level

Spitfire XVI
Top speed: 408mph at 21,000ft (345mph at sea level)
Climb rate: 4,600ft/min at sea level

Fw190D9
Top speed 429mph at 17,500ft (375mph at sea level)
Climb rate: 4,100ft/min at sea level

I've been able to get the P51D up to a sustained speed of 360mph at low level, agreeing with the P51D's historical speed at that altitude, therefore I don't think the flight model is slower than it should be.

However, the P51D's top speed is granted by good aerodynamics, not a good power to weight ratio, so even though the top end speeds are similar the other three planes have much better acceleration. Therefore getting up to high speeds will take longer, and if you are trying to chase or break away from one of these planes with both you and your opponent starting at low-medium speeds you will get the impression they are considerably quicker, especially with the Fw109D9 and Spitfire XIV.

[David603]

You are wrong - it's worse.

1. Go into 1946 and get the p51 up to 500kmh and turn as hard as you can.
2. Do the same in BOP

Notice anything? Yea, the highspeed turn performance in 1946 is not in BOP, it turns seemingly slower at high speed than it does in 1946.

This was modelled well in 1946, the high speed elevator authority was useful in combat. Not so in BOP.

Either the flight models are simplified in this game or max deflection in control surfaces was reduced, not sure which but something is fishy in ALL planes.
Are you flying with the Elevator sensitivity turned down? I agree it is almost essential for flying the P51 at low speeds but it takes the edge off your high speed turning abilities on planes that do have good high speed control responses.

[fuzzychickens]

Turn sensitivity up or down in this game, it doesn't affect MAX deflection, it just makes the response curve exponential instead of linear.

The MAX deflection is messed up in this game though, you can hardly stall a lot of planes in simulator modes that you could yank into a nasty stall in 1946 very easily.

Go into 1946 with 109G2 and pull max turn starting at 300kmh at the deck, see how long it takes to lose all your airspeed (or stall) even with WEP on. Eventually you will have to level out to avoid hitting the ground.

In BOP, your plane will maintain 300 and even accellerate to 330-340 with WEP on and MAX flat turn.

Something is "off" in this game -either maximum deflection is reduced or flight model has been messed with.

EDIT: nevermind, it seems max deflection goes up with sens. That makes no sense, it should be exponential with same max deflect - this should be fixed. Pretty annoying to just find that out.

[The_Goalie_94]

Full marks for knowing how to copy and paste off wiki.

If you want to compare aircraft though, a more useful way of doing this might be to pick either a), planes we have in the game or b), aircraft that were contemporary to each other.

The P51D first saw service in 1944, so if you want to compare it with its contemporaries you should pick the Spitfire XIV and Fw190D9. Alternatively you could go with what we have in game, which would mean using a Spitfire XVI instead of the Griffon engined Spitfire XIV.

So just the straight line speed and climb rates for these planes,

P51D
Top speed: 437mph at 25,000ft (362mph at sea level)
Climb rate: 3,500ft/min at 8,000ft (3,200ft/min at sea level)

Spitfire XIV(Griffon)
Top speed: 448mph at 25,000ft (360mph at sea level)
Climb rate: 5,000ft/min at sea level

Spitfire XVI
Top speed: 408mph at 21,000ft (345mph at sea level)
Climb rate: 4,600ft/min at sea level

Fw190D9
Top speed 429mph at 17,500ft (375mph at sea level)
Climb rate: 4,100ft/min at sea level

I've been able to get the P51D up to a sustained speed of 360mph at low level, agreeing with the P51D's historical speed at that altitude, therefore I don't think the flight model is slower than it should be.

However, the P51D's top speed is granted by good aerodynamics, not a good power to weight ratio, so even though the top end speeds are similar the other three planes have much better acceleration. Therefore getting up to high speeds will take longer, and if you are trying to chase or break away from one of these planes with both you and your opponent starting at low-medium speeds you will get the impression they are considerably quicker, especially with the Fw109D9 and Spitfire XIV.


u went way too far to point out a stupid point. That was an example, not the top point in the thread, we don't care that the SPIT is better, i still like the P-51 better. It can actually fly to Germany and back most of the time not in flames. Which, is too hard to do as the P-51 is under rated, thats what we are getting at...i might be getting mixed up with the other 10 or so posts about this though.

[David603]

u went way too far to point out a stupid point. That was an example, not the top point in the thread, we don't care that the SPIT is better, i still like the P-51 better. It can actually fly to Germany and back most of the time not in flames. Which, is too hard to do as the P-51 is under rated, thats what we are getting at...i might be getting mixed up with the other 10 or so posts about this though.
I'm not trying to prove the Spitfire is better with that post, rather I'm trying to explain why the P51's flight model is accurate.

[David603]

.EDIT: nevermind, it seems max deflection goes up with sens. That makes no sense, it should be exponential with same max deflect - this should be fixed. Pretty annoying to just find that out.
Yeah, changes to sensitivity have the effect of expanding or reducing the whole response curve, so if you turn down the sensitivity you lose a chunk of the achievable control surface deflection because the control stick doesn't cover the whole range of control movements anymore.

[Soviet Ace]

I'm not trying to prove the Spitfire is better with that post, rather I'm trying to explain why the P51's flight model is accurate.

I think the Spit is better than the Mustang :cool:

[fuzzychickens]

I think the Spit is better than the Mustang :cool:


Mustang is better for the job it had to do. Spit would have been worthless for long range B17 escort missions - actually less than worthless - it couldn't have done escort at all with its range.

But it was better than the mustang in its own role - defense of British airspace.

[Soviet Ace]

True, but it never would have escorted plane in the first place, especially American bombers. But then, it was never meant to escort bombers anyway. And plus, the Spit at a good altitude could probably out do a Mustang?