+6 rage or +1 attack?

[Metathron]

What's a better choice for a warrior on hard? I'm a bit torn. The rage is alluring, but I'm thinking I should have enough rage due to Anger, and I've already taken +6 rage on one of the previous level-ups.

[Ryastar]

+1 Attack, no contest. There are skills that raise rage, and you will always have plenty of it. But you can never have enough attack.

[Vilk]

I don't see at all why the +1 attack is always better. You don't have much chance to increase your rage level than by the skill that only adds +30 and by the hero level up. Many items increase your attack very few your rage.

I suppose the +6 rage if for the Paladin level up, the fighter gets a +7 rage. It's very cool to chain fights and always have a high level of rage at the beginning of the fight and to achieve that a higher rage helps a lot.

[Razorflame]

very simple for u

+1 attack

gives 3.3% more attack for all units

whereas rage doesn't need to be very high mostly 40 is enough
for beginning anyway

for rage u can just use potions
if your in a hard fight or whatever:)

and since potions own for rage :)

upgrading rage is pretty much useless:)

[Vilk]

Some points about rage and how you underestimate it:

With a warrior you can easily fill up your rage level at each turn. That means that you use a rage skill at each turn, that means that rage is far to be a detail.
If you start at 40 and don't increase it during level up it won't increase much. With luck you'll reach 60 but not more.
A rage of 40/60 is a largely too low rage level, at least for a fighter. An example, Black Hole can damage: 1100-1500 with a rest of 2 but requires rage from 100 to 80. Use it always could not be the best choice but in many case it is very handy, particularly when opponents has many packs. Let say 8 pack, that's 12000 damages you do with no counter attack and you could do it every two turns... as soon as you get enough rage.
Another example, Soul Draining can kill 50% units of a pack with the cost of 70 to 90 rage, that can be a huge damage if the pack is big.
One more example, Ice Orb is a terribly good unit that attract enemy attacks, but the stronger it is the longer it last and at end it costs 60 rage.
With a fighter and right rage skills, during some turn you can increase your rage of 40 if not more, that's a lot of rage lost with a low rage.

So first point, no, 40/60 rage is far to be ok and is terribly too low. Ok that's more true with a fighter.

Second point, about potions:

You don't have enough potion to start with a rage at beginning of each fight, but by chaining fights from a high rage level base you do that much more often. And you can do that only with a high rage.
As far I know you can't use a potion during a fight and when you get rage increase above a low maximum it's pure rage lost for the fight.
Rage potion only increase rage to 30, that's a bit low.


Third point is your rage level lower between two fights:

With a high rage you can start with a much higher rage level and that point only can helps a lot.
That's even more true that it's often easy to finish a fight against only one weak unit you let hit your unit in vain but to max your rage level at end of the fight. If you rage max is high that adds a lot if it is low that doesn't add much.


Last point, about the +3.3%. It's far to be that simple because it depends of the ratio attack/defense and there's a max for the bonus you get from it. I haven't studied closely the subject but from few post I read about it, the 3.3% was far to bas that simple.

[Ryastar]

The simple fact, though, is that your rage can easily become 100+ as a warrior without taking it on level up at all, or at least, only when the other option is even worse. Apart from the +30 from that one skill, you usually find several shrines to increase it as well as several items and so on.

The argument here is not about utility of high max rage (I'm not disputing that it's useful, and it's one of the things I make sure that my warrior has. 50% kill with soul drain for 70 rage doable every turn is devastating, especially since you can do it on the first round and then timeback your most hurt troop the next round), it is about whether the choice between attack or rage on a level up is better. The answer is attack by a clear mile, especially because the OP said he was playing hard. The higher the difficulty, the more you have to rely on your troops to do your damage since there are more enemy troops and no increase in your ability to cast spell or use rage. Attack has a direct effect on that damage whereas the max rage will slightly increase chance of crit and help you to use rage abilities that are less useful a very small amount more often.

So to sum up, if you are a warrior, pick the attack over rage, but pick rage over most other things (except leadership, naturally). General idea for level choices for warriors:

Before level 14: Attack>rage>def>mana>int>leadership
On and after level 14 leadership>attack>def>rage>mana>int

[Razorflame]

Some points about rage and how you underestimate it:

With a warrior you can easily fill up your rage level at each turn. That means that you use a rage skill at each turn, that means that rage is far to be a detail.
If you start at 40 and don't increase it during level up it won't increase much. With luck you'll reach 60 but not more.
A rage of 40/60 is a largely too low rage level, at least for a fighter. An example, Black Hole can damage: 1100-1500 with a rest of 2 but requires rage from 100 to 80. Use it always could not be the best choice but in many case it is very handy, particularly when opponents has many packs. Let say 8 pack, that's 12000 damages you do with no counter attack and you could do it every two turns... as soon as you get enough rage.
Another example, Soul Draining can kill 50% units of a pack with the cost of 70 to 90 rage, that can be a huge damage if the pack is big.
One more example, Ice Orb is a terribly good unit that attract enemy attacks, but the stronger it is the longer it last and at end it costs 60 rage.
With a fighter and right rage skills, during some turn you can increase your rage of 40 if not more, that's a lot of rage lost with a low rage.

So first point, no, 40/60 rage is far to be ok and is terribly too low. Ok that's more true with a fighter.

Second point, about potions:

You don't have enough potion to start with a rage at beginning of each fight, but by chaining fights from a high rage level base you do that much more often. And you can do that only with a high rage.
As far I know you can't use a potion during a fight and when you get rage increase above a low maximum it's pure rage lost for the fight.
Rage potion only increase rage to 30, that's a bit low.


Third point is your rage level lower between two fights:

With a high rage you can start with a much higher rage level and that point only can helps a lot.
That's even more true that it's often easy to finish a fight against only one weak unit you let hit your unit in vain but to max your rage level at end of the fight. If you rage max is high that adds a lot if it is low that doesn't add much.


Last point, about the +3.3%. It's far to be that simple because it depends of the ratio attack/defense and there's a max for the bonus you get from it. I haven't studied closely the subject but from few post I read about it, the 3.3% was far to bas that simple.

i don't know how u do it by i get max RAGE everyfight :)

inquisitors are key ^^

and furthermore i get more rage than 40/60 but before elven lands it's just ok

never had any troubles with it

in elven land higher rage is prefered but then i use items if my rage isn't already high enough

ATTACK>RAGE big time ^^

[Vilk]

I hadn't quote the Hard mode thing, I haven't yet played any game at this mode so it's not useful to continue this exchange. In Normal mode I have some arguments but not sure they can apply to Hard mode.

Anyway a more general comment, I quote two things:

This forum has some keys like resurrection, inquisitor, Time Back, and more. Fine but the game isn't about having zero loss.
Often (anywhere, any game, any forum) people answer only from an end of game point of view and forget quote the point. A typical example is Pain Mirror, someone quote it but forget mention that it's for the end of game, before it won't be your best attack spell. The end of game point of view is where is possibly the record, like best stats and so on, but it's not the whole real game.

I know people here know it but forget mention it too often, no zero lost isn't the single strategy/tactic and from far. And no end game isn't the only point of the game and in fact a small part of the whole game.

I feel your two answers (Ryastar & Razorflame), felt a bit in the problem, no the game isn't only its end game and no the game isn't that simple, it's not even that there is only one best solution, is the game is lacking so much of depth that there's just one solution to a problem, even just from a character management point of view?

In Normal mode, no, the game keep all its depth and diversity. It's possible that the hard mode isn't well done and in this mode there's only one good character management and one good global tactic looking for zero lost.

That said the game has probably few little flaws in term of some too significant unbalance, I quoted few, Time Back, Griffin/Demon, Inquisitor. Should really all army should include Inquisitor and Griffon/Demon. No for the sake of the game even if it's extremely efficient. Look at Time Back in a same way, give it a break and look at alternatives. But well this thread isn't the place for that, because of its restriction to Hard mode.

[Vilk]

Few points even if as I wrote I don't want argue about the Hard mode I never played yet.

I pick up my current party where my knight has explored all area before Demonis even if not all fights are yet done. I count the rage shines I get, 3. I didn't get any rage bonus but from base and skills ie 55 base but 50 in hard mode. 50+15=60. Items, only a +8 rage at this point. So rage 68, then let say one rage level up was forced, so 75. That's quite far from 100. The point is probably more that most consider that 70 is enough even for a knight. In Hard mode I don't know, in normal mode, that's weird.

Few questions, related but also for curiosity:

Critical attack rate is linked to the rage that is obvious but how? Is it only a percentage thing ie how high it is fill or the rage current level counts?
Is in Hard mode opponents have higher defense/attack or it's only bigger stacks? Are opponents heroes get higher defense? I doubt units change.
Between two fights time pass and rage decrease then with a rage that low than 70 I wonder how start fights with a good rage level, how manage this?
Attack is in favor during 14 first levels, that adds +7 attack with few luck. 7 is that huge so that means you take the Dark Commander to max and always take care to fight at night? Attack + 7 and +2 Initiative are huge but even more if +7 Attack is that important.

[Ryastar]

1. I'm not sure of the exact effect of rage on crit, but I think it is percentage based, though again, not sure.
2. In hard mode there are more enemy troops in each stack meaning that more damage is needed to kill any given stack, and all damaging spells/rage abilities (except soul drain) as a result kill a smaller percentage of the enemy.
3. It's quite easy to end every battle with full rage, and it's just a simple matter of fighting another enemy soon enough afterwards. How much rage you need at the beginning of the battle depends on what ability you want to open with and how much it costs.
4. That whole "first 14 levels thing" is a general strategy, and comes partially from the calculations I made for my posts on pg 4 of this thread: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=5951 . The gist of it is that leadership will be one of the options offered if you did not pick it the level before. The amount will be 60/50/40 times your level for warrior/pala/mage. It is therefore better to get leadership on all the even levels, but the other consideration is that at some point you will not be picking the other option over leadership. Assuming several things (see the thread for details) at level 14, leadership starts being more valuable than attack in terms of damage increase, so that is why level 14 is mentioned. So the generally accepted strategy is to pick the other option until some cut-off point (my suggestion is level 14, others say 10 or 15 etc). The reason behind this is at lower levels the leadership is a fairly small amount, whereas the stat increase is always the same, so it's important to get the stat increase at early levels when you give up less leadership to do so.

You accuse us of considering things only in the light of the end game, but you don't realize, as we do, that you need to. If you don't pick stat upgrades in the early game, you are in effect making the easy parts of the game easier and the hard parts harder. Not exactly the smartest choice.

[Razorflame]

furthermore i only play on impossible level
at least a bit of challenge there
and sure i lose some troops along the way

but you have to calculate what to do
and in the end you will see that attack>rage

rage is easy to get and easy to fill

it's harder to get more damage :> with your troops
since enemy stack can be gigantic:P

[Vilk]

1. I'm not sure of the exact effect of rage on crit, but I think it is percentage based, though again, not sure.
2. In hard mode there are more enemy troops in each stack meaning that more damage is needed to kill any given stack, and all damaging spells/rage abilities (except soul drain) as a result kill a smaller percentage of the enemy.
3. It's quite easy to end every battle with full rage, and it's just a simple matter of fighting another enemy soon enough afterwards. How much rage you need at the beginning of the battle depends on what ability you want to open with and how much it costs.
4. That whole "first 14 levels thing" is a general strategy, and comes partially from the calculations I made for my posts on pg 4 of this thread: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=5951 . The gist of it is that leadership will be one of the options offered if you did not pick it the level before. The amount will be 60/50/40 times your level for warrior/pala/mage. It is therefore better to get leadership on all the even levels, but the other consideration is that at some point you will not be picking the other option over leadership. Assuming several things (see the thread for details) at level 14, leadership starts being more valuable than attack in terms of damage increase, so that is why level 14 is mentioned. So the generally accepted strategy is to pick the other option until some cut-off point (my suggestion is level 14, others say 10 or 15 etc). The reason behind this is at lower levels the leadership is a fairly small amount, whereas the stat increase is always the same, so it's important to get the stat increase at early levels when you give up less leadership to do so.

You accuse us of considering things only in the light of the end game, but you don't realize, as we do, that you need to. If you don't pick stat upgrades in the early game, you are in effect making the easy parts of the game easier and the hard parts harder. Not exactly the smartest choice.

Thanks for the answers,.

1: weird that in a way a fighter get penalized for critical because he has a higher rage, probably, as you I don't know but I also feel it's a percentage thing.

2: Quite a bad difficulty management, destroying a lot of points of the game and reducing a lot its diversity. A lot to improve there.

3: That wasn't my question, not at end but at beginning.

4: I answered you in the post you quoted.

About end of game why you feel it as an accusation? It's just fact and see the little math I answered in the thread you quote.

[Metathron]

Gah! I hate these sucky options at level up.

I got offered 80 leadership or 4 rage with my mage. Was really in two minds as to what to take, but ended up taking the leadership. I'm beginning to think this was a bad idea, considering the long run; what's 80 ledership out of, say, 15,000-20,000 compared to 4 rage out of maybe 50?