Mid-game crisis :<

[Vulture]

Hi folks,

I am pretty new to the game and am still learning strategies but nevertheless I am used to these kinds of games like HoMM/LoM and I've been reading this forum for hours and hours gathering every information my brain can take but yet I can't seem to make proper use of all of them.

This is my first playthrough and I chose Paladin on normal diff.
Lvl 19
12,5k Leadership
8 Attack (only 1 + atk to choose @ lvlup so far :< )
24 Defense
11 Intellect

I learned to use all the tricks posted in here about sacrifice/time back so I can bring back slain lvl 5ers, extend buffs or save/multiply troops that are rare. I float around to grab free goodies and search shops.
In my (pretty lucky tbh) game at the moment I can get every troop execpt for:
Arch-Demons, Blackies, Reds and I have found every powerful spell except for Armageddon (which as a paladin is not usefull anyway). But I explored only up through Ellinia and Demonis so far. So I'm confident that at least 1 out of these 3 will appear later on in the Lotd and the labby.
As a paladin of course my spell power sucks big time but yet I have Order and Disto @ 3 and chaos @ 2 (only for sacrifice) and of course the 1 cast/turn rule makes me a rather helpless wannabe warrior/mage.

I have been reading for hours about troop setups and tried a lot on my own but it seems like I am stuck. Having Anga's Ruby and the elven crown I came to the conclusion that my current setup:
Dryads
Lake Fairies
Demonesses
Emeralds
Demon
might be a good idea considering the morale bonus on the she-fighters and the fact that it makes up for the demon penalty. I am trying to use the greenies as tanks with timeback and as mana gain machines combined with their skill and magic spring or on easier fights the demons for the massive slaughter presented by their 'furious' and pentagram abilities. But I am totally unhappy with the elf chicks. They do practically no damage. 1,5k to 2k normals without frenzy is a PITA especially when facing high defense mobs. Plus it's even more a PITA that they just get destroyed by troops that ignore the 'Target' spell or are lvl 5 and so do not obey to it. The Demonesses do fairly good and I love the swap ability and their charm on humanoids (priceless against big stacks of hunters that would just carve the dragons in half).

So basically what my problem is: so many people on this forum say that lake fairies and all those she-elves are ultimate damage machines combined with Anga's Ruby and I've seen that one signature displaying a 54k sprite crit :) . But it just doesn't work out for me, the damage just sucks. What am I not considering ? I chose every good might talent possible incl frenzy, onslaught and nighttime operations. I went for 3/3 into that rune exchange talent of course to get the runes needed. And I've maxed concentration and as said before 3 Order, 3 Disto, 2 Chaos and 3/3 Healer.

Ok, that's very much for one posting ^^ I hope somebody can figure out a strategic advise for me because actually fighting is very frustrating because the enemy just lives too long and the 'target' ignoring creatures just crack my girls.

Thx in advance !

P.S: having 3/3 Bowmen Commander and that bow with +3 atk to rangers and +15% physical range dmg bonus I tried Hunter/Elf/Bowman triple range setup with greenies as tanks and Inquisitors as ress machine/rage machine with time back but yet again the damage is not even mediocre and only has a few shining moments when using double-shot.

[Nike-it]

Hi folks,

I am pretty new to the game and am still learning strategies but nevertheless I am used to these kinds of games like HoMM/LoM and I've been reading this forum for hours and hours gathering every information my brain can take but yet I can't seem to make proper use of all of them.

This is my first playthrough and I chose Paladin on normal diff.
Lvl 19
12,5k Leadership
8 Attack (only 1 + atk to choose @ lvlup so far :< )
24 Defense
11 Intellect

I learned to use all the tricks posted in here about sacrifice/time back so I can bring back slain lvl 5ers, extend buffs or save/multiply troops that are rare. I float around to grab free goodies and search shops.
In my (pretty lucky tbh) game at the moment I can get every troop execpt for:
Arch-Demons, Blackies, Reds and I have found every powerful spell except for Armageddon (which as a paladin is not usefull anyway). But I explored only up through Ellinia and Demonis so far. So I'm confident that at least 1 out of these 3 will appear later on in the Lotd and the labby.
As a paladin of course my spell power sucks big time but yet I have Order and Disto @ 3 and chaos @ 2 (only for sacrifice) and of course the 1 cast/turn rule makes me a rather helpless wannabe warrior/mage.

I have been reading for hours about troop setups and tried a lot on my own but it seems like I am stuck. Having Anga's Ruby and the elven crown I came to the conclusion that my current setup:
Dryads
Lake Fairies
Demonesses
Emeralds
Demon
might be a good idea considering the morale bonus on the she-fighters and the fact that it makes up for the demon penalty. I am trying to use the greenies as tanks with timeback and as mana gain machines combined with their skill and magic spring or on easier fights the demons for the massive slaughter presented by their 'furious' and pentagram abilities. But I am totally unhappy with the elf chicks. They do practically no damage. 1,5k to 2k normals without frenzy is a PITA especially when facing high defense mobs. Plus it's even more a PITA that they just get destroyed by troops that ignore the 'Target' spell or are lvl 5 and so do not obey to it. The Demonesses do fairly good and I love the swap ability and their charm on humanoids (priceless against big stacks of hunters that would just carve the dragons in half).

So basically what my problem is: so many people on this forum say that lake fairies and all those she-elves are ultimate damage machines combined with Anga's Ruby and I've seen that one signature displaying a 54k sprite crit :) . But it just doesn't work out for me, the damage just sucks. What am I not considering ? I chose every good might talent possible incl frenzy, onslaught and nighttime operations. I went for 3/3 into that rune exchange talent of course. And I've maxed concentration and as said before 3 Order, 3 Disto, 2 Chaos.

Ok, that's very much for one posting ^^ I hope somebody can figure out a strategic advise for me because actually fighting is very frustrating because the enemy just lives too long and the 'target' ignoring creatures just crack my girls.

Thx in advance !

According to the list of your units, lake fairies and dryads have low morale becuse of demon units. In this case it is normal, that they are not so good in the battle. You can learn about morale here: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=59848&postcount=2

[Vulture]

According to the list of your units, lake fairies and dryads have low morale becuse of demon units. In this case it is normal, that they are not so good in the battle. You can learn about morale here: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=59848&postcount=2

Thank you for your comment but as stated above I have anga's ruby which makes up for the demon penalty. -2 for demons in the army, + 3 for anga's ruby makes +1. I know how morale works since as I said I have read through this forum for hours ^^

[Nike-it]

Thank you for your comment but as stated above I have anga's ruby which makes up for the demon penalty. -2 for demons in the army, + 3 for anga's ruby makes +1. I know how morale works since as I said I have read through this forum for hours ^^

Well, I think other players will be able to give more efficient advices. Good Luck

[thorndike]

there is quite a big difference between +1 and +3 morale for getting the criticals. That's one of the many dilimmas I faced when playing this great game, whether or not to put demoness in the army with fairies and dryads.

to increase the damage, you need to get the whip (easy to get) and the dagger (I never found it in my first game), and to use multiple weapons, you might have to marry Xena.

For the ranged units, I found spell "precision" at level 3 to be really useful. Other people also suggest spell "dragon arrow"

[Ryastar]

Ah, but what makes the sprites and lake fairies kick butt is the +3 morale that they get with anga's ruby. You have reduced their morale back down to mediocre. The other thing that makes them own is using +damage items, namely the poison dagger and isshara's whip. The latter is a quest reward for a quest in demonis, which you will get eventually. It gives +2 att and +1 fire damage. Since sprities + lake fairies are in such large number due to low leadership cost, this +1damage has a huge effect.

Some suggestions for you:

1) since you are paladin, you should have little problem getting tolerance level 2, which will negate the morale penalty from the demons. The other option is replacing your demonis troops with elven ones. The eleven archers are quite powerful, and I am frankly astonished that you don't have any sprites.

2) Lake fairies pale in comparison to sprites, which are only slightly slower and in slightly smaller numbers, but do more than 50% more damage per troop, so I would add sprites to your lineup either instead of lake fairies or in addition, see 1), above. Another thing to note is that dryads suck at dealing damage and should mostly be used as support troops ie. using lullaby to put enemy troops to sleep and summoning expendable stacks of thorns to distract enemies and do some damage.

3) Red and Blacks Dragons are ALWAYS available in the land of the dead, amongst the cliffs in Death valley, so extend your explorations there. Of the two, blacks are more devastating with better special abilities but are harder to keep alive without losses while reds are only slightly weaker and have a better special attack and can be kept alive easier.

4) Inquisitors are a good addition to any army despite their rather lacking damage. They are primarily support units with the ability to ressurect any level of unit even level 5 as well as having an ability that blesses a troop (and sprites and lake fairies become far more powerful when blessed) and gives you some rage (only 5-10, but it still helps).

[Vulture]

@ Thorndike: You're right about the Dragon Arrow and/or precision and I do own both of them but the problem is that I am not a mage and need my single cast per turn for 1. target 2. magic spring/divine armor [timeback tank unit at end of turn 2] 3. target again 4. magic spring/divine armor again. There is practically no time for 4 turns to cast dragon arrow or precision which is the reason why I dumped the ranger setup.

You're right about positive morale being inferior to a possible high morale but I was doing BETTER with other units having no morale bonus at all, meaning neutral morale (Evil Beholders, Royal Snakes, Horsemen, Inquisitors went far better until the tanking problem appeared) so the morale can't be the only problem. If so I will have to throw out the demoness, replacing her with something else.

Yet I can't figure out how I am supposed to get Isshara's whip at level 19 since all over Demonis it says 'very strong' or 'overpowering'. But I'll see what I can do.

@ Ryastar: ok, I get the point. So the sprite is missing. I remember having read in the 'favorite unit' thread about lake fairies being better than sprites. Must have got it wrong then. So without the whip (yet) and the dagger I should not go with the 'girls' setup ? And forget about tolerance, I have taken the way down to the rune swapping and won't do more since the mind tree sucks big time tbh. Getting all the talents in the middle and right (i.e. glory which doesn't scale at all) part of the tree doesn't make sense to me since I have Inquisitors + Sacrifice/time back to make more if lost. As you stated correctly the Inquisitors lack range damage wise unless fighting the undead (I will take them again in Lotd) so I don't think they are a good choice for Ellinia. Having timeback lvl1-5 at 20 rage it's pretty fine for me not to go with inquisitors since I use to have the rage for it and so don't need it at all atm. The bless coming with holy anger isn't enough to justify their spot (again unless fighting undead) and so it leaves me with a small rage gain and no damage at all.

But still, even if I took the demoness and the demon out replacing them with other none-demonic units there would still be a problem with the lvl 1 (sprite or lake fairy don't make a difference in that respect) melee unit just being smashed by all those mobs ignoring 'target' either by bein' 5ers or immune. Especially ancient ents are horrible in that respect. They just spit (or melee hit) them to death while the mobs affected by target are busy with my dragons and/or demons. So either with +1 or +3 morale they get eaten and I end up every fight saving a low stack of slow enemies or rangers to wait for my mana to regen to resurrect them all. Spending more than 50% of your battle mode time with running and waiting is rather frustrating. Running through cities with backup in their garrisons I've put there isn't that much more interesting...

Edit: elven crown gives +1 to elven morale, too, so I have actually +2 on them with demons in the army.

[Zonc]

Your setup is too melee based. This is setup I was usuing in previous game as Pal:
1) Demons (if you don't want to loose too much morale, use griffins)
2) Vamps
3) Ancient Vamps
4) Skelly archers
5) Bowman

You already know the awesomness of Target+Timeback combo, so use Demons as main assault unit (Onslaught skill to move them sooner in 1st turn, and Tactics to move further). Vamps are strike support unit, they are essential when Demons are timebacked (life drain rocks). Skelly archer simply the best ranged unit in the game, 5th unit is optional I used bowman (thorns are good with + dmg items)

It goes like this: (1st turn)
Vamps pausing. Cast Target on Demons, use running and pentagram ability. Archers shoot enemy archers. Vamps use their move and attack archers (melee's are busy with Demons)
2nd turn:
Cast Dragon Arrows on skelly archers. Focus all units on enemy ranged. By the end of turn, cast timeback on Demons.
3rd turn: protect Demons with Glots Armor, cast Target on Vamps. Now it's easy.

When fighting dragons, start fight with 20-30 rage, place archers in corner and cast Ice Thorns to protect them from all sides. Dragons will ignore them, slaughter them with Dragon Arrows.

You really should buy Skelly Archers. Regular dmg is excellent, with Dragon Arrow I saw full stack of Emarlds (25 uints) killed in ONE SHOT. 3/5 units are undead, so zombie form Rina and Dark Commander skill is really helpful.

This is how it worked out for me:
http://images48.fotosik.pl/91/8ecf64b190c85c9bm.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl/showFullSize.php?id=8ecf64b190c85c9b)

[jwallstone]

Yes, Ishara's whip and the Poison Dagger are essential to high damage output with sprites and lake fairies. Since they do 1-2 or 1-3 damage, if you add +2 to that, you are almost tripling their damage with these items.

I do have to disagree about Sprites being better than Lake Fairies. Not always. They do have a slightly better damage range (1-3 vs 1-2), but with higher leadership (8 vs 7), you can recruit fewer of them, so this evens it out partially. Furthermore, the Whip and the Dagger have a MUCH greater effect on Lake Fairies because you can hire more of them. The power of these items essentially are proportional to the number of units in the stack. So I've found that if you are using these two items, go with the Lake Fairies, otherwise, Sprites are better for damage. I've actually tested this out with full stacks of both in my army. Just hovering over enemy units, the Lake Fairies had higher damage ranges (both the minimum and maximum were higher) than the Sprites.

Finally, since Sprites have Fire Weakness, they drop like flies fighting Dragons of other fire-based units, which pretty much are in all the hardest fights. Lake Fairies don't, so live much longer.

[Vulture]

@Zonc: thanks for your detailed information. As for me I can't go with demons and undead using bowmen as 5th unit for I refuse to buy 3 talents I consider of low value if not totally useless to get to tolerance. As for Dark Commander it would take me 2 more levels to get it since I'm totally out of might runes and the handy 'easy runes for free' talent is maxed already. This includes the possibility of buying runes @ Bogacho which I already did to get my magic schools spells to a reasonable rank (for ress, sacc, target, divine armor etc). Anyways I cured Rina and she's happy with Hake as a human. I thought by myself 'I'm not going for undeads anyway, I'm a paladin and will have Dark Commander veeeery late due to lack of runes' and so didn't take an undead army into consideration.

You're certainly right about this setup being marvelous along with the talents but I'm afraid it won't work out for me at the moment since I just can't reach them/can't buy them. But that is what matters for me. My current state in the game. It is unbearable for me. I don't want to lvlup 3 or 4 levels taking 5min+ fights to the point of agony when concentration3 only delivers 2 mana per turn in order not to run to the castles grabbing reserves :/
By the way how do you restore losses on your undead troops as they can't be resurrected if I'm not mistaken ? For me it would turn out into running castles to refill which is actually what I want to avoid.

As for the tactics everything is clear. If only it was as easy as 'hit archers with archers, take melee strike units and kill archers, enemy melee is busy with demon tanks'. Those fights are piece of cake and I can win them without losses with practically every setup. My problem is for example this typical PITA enemy troop in ellinia:
3 stacks of 300-500 sprites or lake fairies each, 2 stacks of 10-23 ents, 3 stacks of 3-7 ancient ents, 2 stacks of 50 unicorns, 1 stack 8 Giants and one stack of 60 random lvl 3s.
How to take such a bunch of mobs down, especially those ignoring 'target' and lots of melee/range hybrids ? Which actually means that in this enemy troop setup they spit or melee my melee strike department down to 50% manpower (which is 2 resurrections aka 60 of 89 mana only for those, assuming target and phantom/protection spell being cast twice, once before and once after timeback on tank this means 0 mana left and numbers of ranged decimated by Giants Stomp or Ents getting them in spit range).

For a mage this would be a simple zapp 'n crack setup takin them all out quickly with Fire Rain (hello plant ents) and keeping them away with ice snakes. For me neither worked. The dryad, lake fairy and sprite (I purchased them now) setup with demoness and demon was just smashed hard leaving me with losses again. I tried a full range setup with bowmen/elves/hunters with Emeralds as tanks, supported by inquisitors and it ended up with what I said above. Turn 15+ long term fight for simple 'slightly weaker' outdoor troop just to not lose too many units.

As for availability I can't hire ancient vamps anywhere in my game having cleared all the sarcophagi and tombs so far. Castle Karmag provides ghosts and normal vamps only, same with the necromancers hut in Kordar whereas Demonis has Bone Dragons, Skelly Archs and Skells only. As for the lands of the dead I can't tell for there's a lvl 27 hero unit with 'impossible' tag blocking the first path -.-

@jwallstone: Yeah, that's actually what I came across, too when reading about these girls. The lower leadership makes up for the lower dmg range when hiring big stacks of 2k+. Below that number I'd conclude from the maths that it's practically even and prolly tending a bit towards sprites though.

A question in general is: What can I do to avoid many low stacked units to surround my tanks (if not flying) leading to the problem of additional enemy stacks ignoring the target spell because there's no space in the targets melee range ? Against fast units this always breaks my neck on the melee strikers or range/supports. Traps don't do much as I can't cast them anyway for I need any cast/turn for survival of the tank.

Another one: am I expecting too much ? Does the battle duration and difficulty (not tactic wise but mass and strength of troops wise) rise suddenly to such a huge extend when going to ellinia ? Was the impression of the first half of the game a false one ? I was used to 2-4 round mashing through any kind of troop including 'match' or 'strong' heroes even in ardent's peaks. Was that just the warm-up ? If so the general impression of the game loses in my eyes but I don't want to believe it's the game's 'fault' but want to believe it's mine.

[Ryastar]

Two questions before i can help:

1. have you been using your dryads' abilities? Cause they certainly shouldn't be around for their damage-doing skills

2. are you completely dead-set on using target and timeback? The usual solution to a strategy not being as effective as it used to be is to switch tactics.

As for the sprites vs. lake fairies argument:

Lake fairies (known henceforth here as L) have 7 leadership, sprites (S) have 8. This means that if both stacks are equal, you will have 14.28% more L than S.

With 20000 leadership you would have 2500 S, 2857 L
Let's do some damage math. Assuming the ideal enemy, who has no defence and no resistances and a hero with no attack, S 5666 avg damage, L 4714 avg damage. This is based on the average damage for each creature (S is 2 (avg of 1-3), L is 1.5 (avg of 1-2)) and the fact than each point of attack over defence adds 3.33% damage (S has 4 att, L has 3).
No, assuming that the hero has equipped both +1 damage items: S 22666 avg damage, L 10999 avg damage. This is based on the new figures for average damage (S is 4 (avg of 3-5), L is 3.5 (avg of 3-4)).

Clearly, S does more damage despite the slightly higher leadership cost.

Other stats: S has 33.333% more health (S has 8, L has 6). So the 20000 leadership stack from above have this much health: S 20000, 17142.

Again, Sprites have the lead.

The only ways that L is better is init and speed, having one more of each compared to S ( L 6 init/5 speed, S 5 init/4 speed), in defence, having one more point (S has 2, L has 3) and is resistance, not having the -50% fire resistance that S has. But just keep S away from fire units (or use timeback to get all losses back) and S comes out ahead by a huge margin.

Yes, Sprites are my favourite unit, why do you ask?

[Vulture]

Two questions before i can help:

1. have you been using your dryads' abilities? Cause they certainly shouldn't be around for their damage-doing skills



No, I used them mainly to sleep the 1-3s to keep incoming damage low and then after the field is safer went half-way to the frontline poppin' Thorns and let them do a little damage on their own. The init-song is useless with anga's ruby since sprites and fairies go first anyway. That Dryads - havin' a support, a summon and a CC spell - don't go as damage dealers is clear to me if that's what you intended to say by that question.


2. are you completely dead-set on using target and timeback? The usual solution to a strategy not being as effective as it used to be is to switch tactics.


Yes, totally. I just can't keep tanking units alive with mere ressurrection spellpower if non-5ers, seriously, I take a hard beating all the time. As an example: when tanking with emeralds I lose 4 out of 8 until timeback in Turn 2 as for weak to match. Versus slow melee-based troops I usually can kite them for a round or two before I start to bring in the tank leaving me the option to snipe one or another dangerous stack and mass-bless my army or CC if possible like helplessness. Fact: I take too much damage and deal way too little. Smells like Paladin spirit :/

Can you roughly figure my problem out or what could be a bit of help ?

Having no zombie Rina, being too weak to get Xeona, having not even a chance to get to Dark Commander and/or Tolerance in the next 3-4 levels I only see the chance for She-fighters + neutral (morale-downer wise) units to make up for a striking army. But it all ends up melee-only :/

My choice of items is very limited, too. I have the sword of darkness (wanted it to be light, but fighting elves turns it around of course), the elven bow (which showed up being not much of a help even with 3 physical bow-using archers) and 2 sorts of dwarven hammers of which one is the quest reward of course and the other is the one with +3 atk and +3 atk for dwarves and several crap weapons providing lower values.

P.S: after collecting tons of units and traveling around for 5 game days I am willing to reroll a warrior or mage, the real classes that can work with only one aspect but therefore to the full extend in opposite to being a lowie mage stuck with 1 cast per turn and with no spellpower, put into plate armor, receiving no extra attack or leadership, therefore getting a little more rage which is by far not enough to draw enough power out of the rage spirits. Ok, whining doesn't help, it's me not the class, that fails atm, I am honest with myself ^^

[jwallstone]

Ryastar,

I think you've made a math error here. The Sprites definitely do not do 22666 damage with the two items. They do 11333 damage, half of what you calculated. They essentially do nearly the same damage with the two items. However, there are two things that stack the odds more in favor of Lake Fairies. First, LF's have a higher critical hit change, 15% versus 10% base chance. The % also depends on rage, and changes differently for the two units. With full rage, I was getting around 15% for Sprites versus around 25% or so for Lake Fairies. (if I remember correctly, I'll check when I get a chance). This alone translates to more average damage for the LF's.

Second, most unit's have some sort of resistance. Since having the two items gives you three types of damage (Magic, Poison, Fire), unless the enemy has equal resistance to all three types, the larger numbers of Lake Fairies means you're dealing more of the type of damage that bypasses the strongest resistances of the unit. So in practice, this leads to more damage output from the Lake Fairies too.

I've played with both unit types in the same battle, and just hovering over enemies has (in the battles where I tried this) shown that Lake Fairies do better damage. The extra initiative and speed help too. The extra health is great for Sprites, but these are not units I want to be soaking up damage at all anyway. I use them more like hit and run or fast strike troops. I only bring them in harm's way if I can kill off nearby stacks, bring in a tank that will absorb the damage, or use Timeback. In general, I think the health of this troop is not that important to its use, as opposed to say, Demons. The Dispel ability of sprites may be great, but I've never used it, as good old killing seems to be a better use.

Granted, to put all this in perspective, it's kind of like deciding between two troops that are almost identical in usefulness and power. It's up the user to decide on the minor differences between the two. I prefer the Lake Fairies actually for the higher initiative, speed, and not having to worry about fire damage as much, and not so much for minor differences in damage output, which for both are just enormous, which I think we can agree on.

[Zonc]

By the way how do you restore losses on your undead troops as they can't be resurrected if I'm not mistaken ? For me it would turn out into running castles to refill which is actually what I want to avoid.
I don't need to. Vamps never take losses (yes life drain rocks), skellys are protected by Demons target, if some are lost (ed. annoying Giants ability) then cast sacrifice on Demons (timeback) or Vamps (life drain). In fights against dragons put them in corner of battlefield and cast Lina's Ice Thorns ASAP.
3 stacks of 300-500 sprites or lake fairies each, 2 stacks of 10-23 ents, 3 stacks of 3-7 ancient ents, 2 stacks of 50 unicorns, 1 stack 8 Giants and one stack of 60 random lvl 3s.
These are the most annoying fights. You have to choose between Dragon Arrows (eliminate 5lvl tanks) or Target (keep all 1-4 units busy) or magic shackles (annoying Demonesses, Imps, Shamans). Some losses are unavoidable, but make full analysis of enemy first. Heavily archer based - cast Target. Few ranged but 3 stacks of Demoness - cast Magic Shackles. Few ranged but muliple 5 lvl stacks - cast Dragon Arrow and try to block archer with Demons. That's why I started my 4th game as mage (again), so I don't have to make tough choices when casting spells ;)

As for availability I can't hire ancient vamps anywhere in my game having cleared all the sarcophagi and tombs so far. Castle Karmag provides ghosts and normal vamps only, same with the necromancers hut in Kordar whereas Demonis has Bone Dragons, Skelly Archs and Skells only.
Sacrifice is the key. Early on, there are some Vamps and Skelly in Marshan Swamp, so you can keep them in some other castle and wait for Sacrifice. It gets irritating when it's not avaible soon, but i'm pretty sure that i've found it in 4/4 games. Ancient Vamps are avaible for 75% by undead dwarf in Kordar, if they're not there then...

As for the lands of the dead I can't tell for there's a lvl 27 hero unit with 'impossible' tag blocking the first path -.-

There is a trick thanks to I managed to make my way from Tarons mine to Bogacho's castle in early levels (8-10), win the battle (heavy losses but it's not relevant), and then go to Elinia/Death Land without a SINGLE FIGHT. It's simple as it sounds: when enemy spottes you, find a passage little wider, wait until it gets close, and then simply manuever around him :-P most units are slow so it's very easy, more problem with Beholder or Vamps but our hero is faster then any stack so it's achievable.

[Vulture]

As I stated before, I can't get zombie Rina anymore. Do undeads make sense without her ?
And as well stated before, there were no ancient vamps in Marshan Swamp. I mentioned Castle Kormag and I said I cleared every tomb and sacrophagus. And I said there were none with the Dwarven Necromancer in Ardent's Peaks.

As for the pull back and turn tactics I am used to it. If not so I wouldn't have explored and grabbed every item and shop in Demonis and Ellinia without a fight. The problem about lotd is that the hero guy is at the very start. Only like half a screen away from the portal on the slim path. With the Portal in my back I can't drag anything anywhere I suppose.

I drew his attention by mistake and escaped though the exit which animates slowly what gave him the chance to stand directly next to me and I'm afraid he is now directly in front of the Portal when I return. Bu I'll try, maybe he is reset now.

[Vulture]

Little update from my side here. Hero was reset and I could go through the land of the dead. Managed to find available troops: Blackies (+Eggs), Ancient Vamps and Black Knights. Am still angry about myself not having picked up tolerance and dark commander on my way to this point and about having cured Rina giving out the magic formula to Hake :/
Yet I don't know how to put a team together that can take and deal likewise on a decent level :(

[Zonc]

Well, all I can say is that next time you play you'll be able to test some of the tactics you thought of previous time. The game is so flexible, that I'm currently going through it 4th time in a row ;)

[Vulture]

Yes, for sure this is what I will be doing, too. I see myself a few months from now posting about impossible no-buy-no-loss-playthroughs with no-nukes mages ^^. If I like a game - and frankly I DO like KB:TL - I always play it really intensively over and over.

Provided the new creatures I might go with Demons, Blackies, Skellie Archers, Necros and Ancient Vamps. Using Demon retaliation,target, timeback vamps target w/ Blackies nuking lines and dragon arrow skellies. Dunno if this works out w/o Rina and Dark Commander though ? Can someone please say yes or no please ?

[Zonc]

Total bonus from zombie wife and DC is +1 speed (useful for every undead unit) +3 initiative (VERY useful when fighting dragons, allows archers to move before any dragon) and +7 attack (this is huge especially for a mage). I would say it would work without Rina (yes I like the demon wife double weapon slot ;)) but Dark Commander has a bonus too big to skip.

[Ryastar]

@jwallstone. Yeah I did make a math error, at some point in there a two crept in as a multiplier, I'm not sure how. Thank you for keeping me honest. Agreed then, that the difference between them when both +damage items are in use is small (though sprites are still on top!), Vulture doesn't have those, and Sprites are clearly superior when those items are not in use. My problem here is my mage game where I used both S and L and found that S was way more effective (no whip or daggar) is waaaaaaaay more recent than my last warrior game where i used both WITH the whip and daggar, so I bow to your more recent experience. P.S. where are you getting those critical strike figures? I have never noticed that stat in-game.


@Vulture. Ok, I am starting to figure out what is going on here. 1. you have no ranged troops in your army. Range units are the best way to minimize losses, as I saw somewhere "distance is the only armor I need". A dead enemy doesn't do any damage (not counting the UNdead, which isn't what I am talking about). A key thing for you is to get yourself some range units. Two stacks is usually enough, and sometimes three, though by the end of the game, you do need a majority of melee troops. I would recommend hunters and elves. Yes, their damage is not as high, but this is compensated for by their lower likelihood of being in danger and therefore their ability to do damage and not receive any in return. 2. Use your abilities better. THe primary one I want to talk about is lullaby. This is perhaps the most powerful ability in the game, and you have been treating it like a small thing of little interest. With lullaby you can ensure that all non-mind immune level 1-3 enemy stacks are out of the battle for the first two turns or more (more if you are willing to use a spell to extend that). The other important dryad ability is summon thorns, but more about that a little later. 3. Change your use of timeback. They way you have been using it is to replenish the number of your tank stack after it has been damaged ie. the stack that dies the least. I use timeback on the unit that dies the most, namely sprites, at least how I use them. They are my primary strike troops. This is due to the way the AI works. It usually chooses its target based on two factors: 1. whatever is closest. 2. whatever stack will be damaged the most by its attack. I take advantage of this by moving my sprites right up into their faces. I send them after whichever troop is most likely to be able to do damage to my other troops, and they will heavily damage if not kill it. That troop is now most likely to go after my sprites without any encouragement, and the other enemies are as well. By presenting my sprites up there as a target, they end up taking most of the damage. Right before the end of turn two, all that damage is neutralized by timeback. By this time, my range unit should have decimated much of their troops with support from no-retal units like lake fairies (send them in at the end of turn one, and then out again at the beginning of turn two, though be sure to leave one movement so you can cast timeback). Also towards the end of turn two, your dryads swoop in and summon some thorns and then swoop out next turn. These thorns then replace the sprites as the focus of enemy attacks, and you don't care if they die. 4. Get your basic stats higher. Most of your stats should end up soming from items. Try to get your attack and int up to between 15 and 20. Defense is thew least useful of the three stats, so change some items around. Go looking for better ones if you have to. There should be some around. Do you have a wife? Does she have kids? If you answered no to the first, get one. Even if her innate bonus sucks you still have four more slots for items. Don't have kids. Most of them are useless and the item slot they fill is more valuable. The only kids that are useful as the ones that give % bonuses to leadership, att, int, or mana or the ones that give +5 to any of the three primary stats (and maybe a few others, I forget), but these are few and far between. IF your current wife has kids and they aren't the good kind, spend as much of your money as possible, divorce her, and marry someone else.

With these suggestions, there is absolutely no reason why you should take any losses from that fight you decribed. 3 stacks of 300-500 sprites or lake fairies each, 2 stacks of 10-23 ents, 3 stacks of 3-7 ancient ents, 2 stacks of 50 unicorns, 1 stack 8 Giants and one stack of 60 random lvl 3s. Clearly there should be only one stack that causes real losses with a good application of strategy. That is the giants because they deal area damage to all your ground troops. This makes them THE early target for killing. 8 of them is 7200 hp. One sprite/lake fairy hit and sniping from your ranged units and possibly a rage spirit move or a spell like helplessness and they should be dead or practically so. Your dryads will put everything but the ents and unicorns to sleep. The ent's ranged bee attack has a range of only three squares as far as I have noticed, so they should end up shooting at your sprites. The unicorns will also attack your sprites and suffer retaliation. Your lake fairies (which waited at the beginning of the turn) zip in and damage either the ents or the unicorns, the latter have more mobility, so i choose them to be the first to go. Turn 2 lake fairies move back out of range but keeps one movement point. Sprites attack the unicorns. Dryads wait. Range units snipe. Normal ents probably use run to move and attack the sprites. Ancient ents do whatever. Level 1-3 units stop snoring (you can put them back to sleep next turn using a phantomed stack of dryads if you want). Dryads move forward and summon. Timeback on Sprites. From here strategy should be fairly obvious: stay out of the way of the ents' bee attack, snipe with range units, hit and run with lake fairies and sprites. Summon more thorns with the thorns you summoned in the first place. OWN!

Yours lengthfully,

Ryastar

[jwallstone]

@ Ryastar:
Thanks for being honest about the math error, it happens to everyone. I completely agree with you that Sprites are definitely better without the two +1 damage items. With them, they're essentially the same in pure damage. I double checked the in-game damage ranges, and Sprites have better average damage (lower min but even higher max) against "vanilla" enemies, but against ones with magic resistance or high poison or fire resistance, the LF damage is slightly higher.

Critical hit percentages only show up with the Interface mod. If you hover over the Attack value of the troop or over an enemy, it'll display the % chance.

Not to dwell on this any more, since it's not related to the rest of the thread, but just to offer one final bit of information for those interested. The base % critical hits are Sprites 10%, LF's 15%. With +3 morale from Anga's Ruby and 0 rage, it becomes S: 14%, LF: 21%. With full rage (106), it becomes S: 26%, LF: 39%. The full LF critical hit % is quite impressive, and is one reason I like them.

@ Vulture
Ryastar has given you tons of good advice, which I completely agree with and if you follow it, will probably help a lot with these battles.

[Vulture]

Wow, thank you for your rather big list of proposals. I appreciate that will to help. Yet you seem to have skipped most of my statements. But I do post a lot I must admit. Maybe it's up to me to reduce my count of words to make more desirable posting worth being read fully :)

1. I said that I have sprites now. Tried them with a 3-she-elves combo as you describe using practically the tactics you describe (end of turn/first in turn double strike move) and as replacement for the lake fairies. Both ways did fine but left me with heavy losses on both fairies and sprites.

2. I do use Dryads properly and I have said that. I do use the most powerful spell ingame provided by a non end-game unit correctly. If only I had the spell turns to phantom them I would chain-sleep the 1-3s. And of course I do approach afterwards, drop thorns and leave, having a 500+ thorns stack ready to get eaten. Yet the damage is taken by Ls and Ss and not the thorns or mostly shared between the latter 2 which leaves me up to 60 mana for 2 stacks to rezz (40 if I'm lucky on the rank needed to bring em back) which is the opposite of what I want.

3. I said 2 times that I did try range units for those fights with the elven bow w/ 3 attack to archers and 15% extra physical damage on range dmg + elven crown giving me additional 1000 Ldr and +1 morale but their damage is just sucky as hell. A non-double shot kills exactly 1 ancient ent or 1 1/2. Whilst facing 25 on the field this is just a joke, I'm sorry to say that. I used both 2 Elven Archs + Sprites with dryads as well as 2 Elven archs, Bowmen, Emeralds and and inquis.

4. "Get your basic stats higher". Yeah, good advise, I can't script 'em into my game but atm I must settle with what is available (and I searched all of Demonis + land of the dead by now having everything explored except of 2 of the dragon spots in GW with 3+ dragon troops on a very very little area with no place to circle them having other 'impossible's in my back from where I came from) and that is angas ruby, sword of darkness (as said, I wanted light but fighting elves certainly denies that wish :> and of course I did NOT wear it while using the girl-combo) or elven bow or basic +3 atk + what not sucky bonus. The worst shit is my regalia slot: iron tooth, training chamber loot, woohoo. Never found a different regalia.

5. I stated on the first page that I am married to feonora since I went until Ellinia with a devastating Stack of Royal Snakes still keeping up my damage score records. In frog form of course, else makes no sense. Since I've read that Feos kids are most likely to be crappy (not only Feo's but 80% of any kids are) I don't have any, using the artifact/belt/helm slots for the stuff I have around. Few + Ldr/ Def / Int put around there. I would take atk If there was any item providing it in my game. But I still have chances since there are many shops to unlock by quests for higher levels. I would also take Xeona and I will for sure but I can't even think of facing her in battle...

6. I completely changed my setup being back from lotd as I have found blackies and ancient vamps over there. So I go with Blackies, Necros, Ancient Vamps, Skellie Archs and Demons which makes things much easier for me. I can finally spend a cast/turn for dragon arrows3 on the skellies. I still have to learn to estimate the dmg in and out for after timeback on the demons though not to lose too many vamps since I'll end up kiting turns to sacc/TB again for preserving losses. But that's a matter of ~5 fights to master. I do have black knights available, too. Maybe I'll give them a shot.

7. Thanks again for taking the time to analyse my situation. Much appreciated over here.

Few qs: Didn't try yet but do demons suffer from the plague spell from the necro ? If so I will exchange em with black knights or blue vamps.

Vamps in Bat form only drain life out of living creatures. As I've seen, plants don't count as living, is that correct ? Since I've wondered vamp bats not draining life out of hitting ents.

@jwallstone: I agree on these advice, too. Yet except for the description about 'aggro gain' I was familiar with all of them. I was wondering how the AI chooses targets if range/turns till strike is/are equal for 2 of my units back then. Now I seem to get it from my own estimation and Ryastar's clear statement. i used to think of something like 'AI seems to go for both, lower level if it has to choose and for dmg out weakening on enemy units per estimated own dmg done'. Wonder if this is understandable ^^

[Zonc]

6. I completely changed my setup being back from lotd as I have found blackies and ancient vamps over there. So I go with Blackies, Necros, Ancient Vamps, Skellie Archs and Demons which makes things much easier for me. I can finally spend a cast/turn for dragon arrows3 on the skellies. I still have to learn to estimate the dmg in and out for after timeback on the demons though not to lose too many vamps since I'll end up kiting turns to sacc/TB again for preserving losses. But that's a matter of ~5 fights to master. I do have black knights available, too. Maybe I'll give them a shot.
That's a good setup, however I would swap dragons with some other ranged uint (thorns are good with +dmg items, or just simple bowman). Demons + Target got all 1-4 units covered, so the only worry are 5 lvl tanks. Use Dragon Arrows against them

Vamps in Bat form only drain life out of living creatures. As I've seen, plants don't count as living, is that correct ? Since I've wondered vamp bats not draining life out of hitting ents.
- plants
- cyclops
- other undead (they're still valuable in Death Land though, just save living creatures for vamps so they can regenerate)

[jwallstone]

@ Vulture
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "aggro gain". As for AI choosing targets, they tend to target creatures that have a higher damage potential. This usually means large stacks of lower level units. They seem to have a preference however for certain special units, such as inquisitors. I've found that phantoms or summoned thorns also seem to get preference. Finally, if you have a unit next to an enemy ranged unit, if the ranged unit can move away and still shoot, it will almost always shoot the unit it just moved away from. That can be very useful for figuring out how to neutralize enemy ranged units.

[Vulture]

I'm pretty happy with it, too zonc. You're right about a second range unit (with respective gear for them) to be more suitable in this setup than dragons but still I have none of those items and no tolerance (UD+Demons around) so bowmen won't go. I prefer dragons for now for their fire damage and their special ability because in Ellinia multitarget fire damage is way better than single target physical. Took out a stack of sprites and 2 small stacks of ancient ents lined up yesterday with a fine 3x 4k fire breath. But of course for demonis and lotd the blackies will decorate a garrison and I'll go as you advise. Also, I was lucky to get another -rest lvlup for timeback so I'm with 20 rage / 3 turn rest for 1-5 creatures which is perfect as can be. Gives me the opportunity to reduce battle length to a max of 5 turns without kiting around too much waiting for next sacc/tb to work. Is there a chance to get it below 3 turns ? Reaper is only lvl 16 atm so there's much to come. 2 turns would be a blast :>

Funny thing is, I found my 2nd and 3rd sacrifice spell yesterday and my 3rd ressurrection (was even a stack of 3 scrolls of it and I felt very bad selling them ^^). I hope I don't pay for this spell luck in my next game ^^

Thanks again everybody for your help, I've learned a lot about helpful synergies through your comments, especially about skellie archs with DA. I usesd to be disappointed about this spell with hunters until I learned more about dmg increase through defense ignore for big stacks of low lvl archers. It increases the dmg by a much higher amount than with high lvl archers with higher attack rating and higher damage ratio (i.e. 2-3 vs 8-12). I'll keep that in mind for when I get the whip and hopefully find the dagger for the Ls and Ss waiting in Kronberg Castle to finally kick some asses :>

[Elwin]

But of course for demonis and lotd the blackies will decorate a garrison and I'll go as you advise. Also, I was lucky to get another -rest lvlup for timeback so I'm with 20 rage / 3 turn rest for 1-5 creatures which is perfect as can be. Gives me the opportunity to reduce battle length to a max of 5 turns without kiting around too much waiting for next sacc/tb to work. Is there a chance to get it below 3 turns ? Reaper is only lvl 16 atm so there's much to come. 2 turns would be a blast :>



Bah, my reaper with level 16 got only time back 1-2 :| As i wrote in other thread i still wonder if i did something wrong or its pure random and i am extrelemy unlucky for upgrades of time back :| Atm got the best rage skill completlety useless ( would work with sprites/dryads but i am happy with my current setup) .
As for demonis i agree blackies are useless i tried it ,did no damage at archdemon and not much to others .However i find them usuefull against Karador in lotd, had royal snake,shaman,emerald,hunter, elf in my team but after first recognizing fight ( which was failure of course) i fount out thats my weakpoint because he was main target for Karador's hypnosis and actualy he was kiling me instead of helping. Replaced him with blackie and problem with hypno dissapeared Karador got defeated :). Actually with undead army you will not have problem with hypnosis ^^

About ranged setup you mentioned in first post : elven bow isnt bad, but in my opinion for such setup ale barrel + telescopic sight is a must be, addidional 100% attack and 30% crit make my elves and hunters hell powerfull , could add an elven bow for even more damage but actually i am playing mage and need more items for spells than for units.

[Zonc]

Is there a chance to get it below 3 turns ? Reaper is only lvl 16 atm so there's much to come. 2 turns would be a blast :>
Yes my warrior had 2 turn cooldown so there was only one turn for the assault unit to spend idling. However, it's required to win Bogacho's catle battle ASAP (my record is level 8 ) and have the skill that increases exp for spirits (which is very tough for a mage)

I usesd to be disappointed about this spell with hunters until I learned more about dmg increase through defense ignore for big stacks of low lvl archers.
To maximize damage try to achieve around 25-30 attack for skellies. This way maximum bonus (+200%) is achieved and they do tremendous damage (like 12k regular non-crit even for 5 lvl units). This is why I recommend Dark Commander, Xeona with 2 weapons is also very helpful.

[jwallstone]

Sorry, I just want to point out that the maximum damage bonus is achieved when your attack is 60 greater than the enemy's defense, not 30. Each point is a 3.33% bonus, so 30 gives a 100% bonus, and 60 gives a 200% bonus.

For some reason, this math mistake keeps on showing up on the forums.

[Zonc]

I would some link to confirm this, thanks (I'm curious myself)

[Vulture]

Yes my warrior had 2 turn cooldown so there was only one turn for the assault unit to spend idling. However, it's required to win Bogacho's catle battle ASAP (my record is level 8 ) and have the skill that increases exp for spirits (which is very tough for a mage)

To maximize damage try to achieve around 25-30 attack for skellies. This way maximum bonus (+200%) is achieved and they do tremendous damage (like 12k regular non-crit even for 5 lvl units). This is why I recommend Dark Commander, Xeona with 2 weapons is also very helpful.

Yes, at least 1 point into the rage spirit talent is crucial. Cheap 10% for them is a must-have imho. Yet I decided not to go for more as a 5% increase seemed too expensive for me as a paladin.

Righty about the Skellies. Got my attack up to 15 from former 8 (2 attack lvl ups, many altars of combat and 2 artifacts) and it was remarkable. They go for 6k+ DA shots by now... and that's by far not the end of the line. I am very convinced of them and I won't ever go without 'em anymore unless I am forced to. Heard about the Karador battle requiring melee only.

By the way I saved runes during the last 3 lvls (22 now) and I can go for 2/2 tolerance (still having headache about taking bullshit to get to it but I could now) and 2/3 Dark Commander if I buy a might rune at 100k. Was pretty lucky on doing the whip quest. The Road's Architect Shop unlocked presented me a fine Assassin's dagger and of course the whip <3. The bad part about this is that I can't get Xeona for the weapon slots. So no elf girl action for me now. I don't know if her army is guaranteed to be the same every game but in mine 300 Demonesses (split in 2x 150 ie 2 Infernal Exchange dangers) along with 100 Demons and a good 1k fire spiders, imps and catapults on top plus demon portals from Xeona spawning 4 Arch-Demons is way to much for me atm. I know what you will say about this: mass magic shackles and block the way with summons. Mine is at lvl 2 only for I'm scared of the 40 mana casting costs and it will once again block my cast/turn plannings.
1. Shackle 2. Target [timeback] 3. Target 4. Shackle
leaves no space for mana spring or Dragon Arrows and beats me down to only ~30 mana (3x 6 regen already calculated). Lina's Chargers still unimproved with 1 orb of each, never got asked for a up yet -.-

I felt better having neither whip nor dagger than having both and being unable to use them ^^

Nevertheless, no Sprite/Fairie massacre for me yet so I'll have to rely on the benefits of tolerance. Vamps showed up almost useless in lotd where I'm at right now so I'll try Demons, Skellie Archs, Hunters, Blackies + probably inquisitors. To keep Demons reliable I'll have to find a way to avoid enemy vamps on them somehow. And the Inquis finally can be more than a once-per-battle cast saver but a reliable dps unit as well.

[Zonc]

First 2 turns simply ignore vamps, focus on archers, necros and bone dragons first (try placing your Demons within enemy archers melee range so Demons retaliate). After this in turn 3 vamps die easily under mass fire, then slaughter slow melees (zombies and dark knights). Toughest fights in lotd are in the "dragon section", which I hate them, Karador is almost easy compared to these fights (btw my squad against him was fairies, sprites, dryads + Anga's Ruby, snakes + snake ring and standard Demon + Target + Timback procedure)

[Elwin]

Karador doesn't require melee only( i had 2 archers), however its good to have them to stand on corpse to not ress them, other way could be marauder who can explode corpse or smg like that. There is also another way (but according to what you write another spells is not an option )- using weak necro call on his fallen units, so even if they die again he wont rise like 50 vamps but maybe 10 or so depends on your necrocall power,

Karador armies indeed are much less in numbers than usual forces there, but this rressing all the time make it tougher

[Vulture]

To get my Demons directly in front of enemy archers I will have to go for tactics2 which is IIRC 14 Might runes (definetely can't afford them, not even remotely). Took tactics1 at lvl 6 already for I considered it crucial, but only 2 hexes + Speed3 + running makes 7. AI archers usually are placed 9th or 10th from my baseline.
I seriously want to replace necros and Vamps for further lotd (except for Karador, 3 raise dead charges seem priceless). The other problem is that my Elven Crown keeps going to 0 without elves in my army in the middle of nowhere so I will go with hunters instead of necros.

[Vulture]

Land of the dead was piece of cake with Demons, Blackies, Skellie Archs, Hunters and Inquisitors. Especially Dragon Fights were funny as hell. With the latter 3 locked behind Ice Thorns 90% of the Dragons went for the demons and got their beating. A few chose the blacks and dealed amazingly high damage on them... like... 50 ? ^^
Without enemy archs it was laughable with 1 spell used during the whole fight and enough rage to spare at the end of the fight to start the next one at full mana and 30+ rage. With enemy archs I just used mana potions every 2nd battle.
As an interlude after having cleared 80% of GW and DV I went for Xeona. Mass shackles, let demons and blacks lock the 3 hexes wide path and took out 100 shackled Demonesses with a DA-Shot from the skellies. I spent some money on runes to make the loss of gold due to the divorsal from Feanora cheaper and divorced, married Xeona, put in whip and dagger.

Guess for what units I went. Now it becomes funny as hell. 36k Sprite crit, ridiculous, seriously. Got Sprites, Lake Fairies, Hunters, Skellie Archs and Demons. Any non-dragon fight is a joke. The girls onehit everything, so do skellies, Hunters are ok, their damage is enough to remove an annoying stack in the back. But I do get serious problems with dragons. While I was laughin at them with my old setup I now felt the wrath of "Hm.. I'm a dragon, I'll go for some tasty elven meat". They constantly ignored the demons and hammered on the sprites and lake fairies, demons were useless except for catching range dmg through target. I tried target on sprites to timeback 'em but with only one retaliation they suck as tanks and they got seriously devastated so at the beginning of turn 2 they were already uselessly decimated to count as damage dealers (2200 --> 1200).
I was hoping for days to get the dagger and be finally strong enough for Xeona and now I have both and I'm annoyed again.

Now the final question: do all dragon fights end with 3-4 additional turns of loss preserving and stupid mana gain "exploits" with the Ls and Ss or am I getting something wrong ? With Blackies and Inquisitors instead of the 2 girl units I rarely ever had to compensate any losses. Sometimes I didn't even have to timeback the demons thanks to their fire resistance (finally more than 2 rage abilities usable) and just ressurrected 5-10 in the final turn and that's it.

[jwallstone]

You can still do dragon fights easily with Sprites and Lake Fairies. I did all the fights in LotD this way. The trick to avoiding large losses is to simply put vulnerable units all behind Ice Thorns. If you put 4 vulnerable units at the edge of the combat map, you can still cover them all with clever positioning. The only unit I had outside were Green Dragons, usually. Inside, I put units like Inquisitors, Hunters, Dryads, etc. My Sprites and LF's just sat out in the reserve slots for these battles. Besides a Time Back and/or a Resurrect from the Inquisitors, I never had to do much in terms of restoring losses.

[Vulture]

My Sprites and LF's just sat out in the reserve slots for these battles.

That's all I wanted to know, thanks :>

[Elwin]

The trick to avoiding large losses is to simply put vulnerable units all behind Ice Thorns. .

I read a lot about it here bot i wonder one thing, do you guys alays have rage for ice thorn in beggining , personaly i rarely got any on start

Now the final question: do all dragon fights end with 3-4 additional turns of loss preserving and stupid mana gain "exploits" with the Ls and Ss or am I getting something wrong ? With Blackies and Inquisitors instead of the 2 girl units I rarely ever had to compensate any losses. Sometimes I didn't even have to timeback the demons thanks to their fire resistance (finally more than 2 rage abilities usable) and just ressurrected 5-10 in the final turn and that's it.

Did i read correct, you resurrected demons ? Is that possible ? My inqisitors can't do that, dont have order lvl 3 yet so maybe ress 3 can do this?

[jwallstone]

As a Warrior, I usually have around 70-90 starting rage for most fights if I've walked around a bit (but not too long), or full rage if I start a new fight pretty much right away.

As for resurrection, I think he's using the spell, not the inquisitor ability.

[Elwin]

As a Warrior,

That clarifies all, i thought you are talking about paladin. My bro plays warrior and he got rage all the time too so i know it.

[Vulture]

Yes, I was talking about the spell itself @ Order3.

Concerning Rage: as a Pal, to preserve rage you only have the chance to save it, even during combat. A dying enemy army doesn't need to be black holed or underground bladed, therefore you'll always have the ice thorns in the beginning against black, bone or emerald dragons which is highly recommended.

What I also use to get rage for a dragon fight is using mana potions and F5. Another trick is an item you can get early in the game. I don't remember the name but it's a mask that looks like a tiger. It gives +5 rage which is fairly neglectable but it has a use effect giving 20 rage. I simply put it on, use it and put my real helm back on. The 20 rage are kept and you can attack a dragon containing army.

This of course means a sh*t against red dragons since they always find a way to spray over the whole battlefield to get your archers including clearing an ice thorn hex opening the way for other dragons.

That's practically the reason why I stopped playing in Demonis. Red Dragons destroy any of your tactical preparations just by being what they are. Even lining up your units outside the thorns to give them an offer doesn't seem to help a lot. Besides the fact that in demonis the AI tends to present you 4k stacks of lvl 1 units crackin' up your tanks like nutshells, of course. More frustration than joy = no game.

[Ryastar]

Items don't have to be put on in order to be used, vulture, so you can save yourself a little time and just use the item right in your inventory.

As for you quitting, I'm sorry to hear that, but the problems you seem to be having would have been solved by using the tactics and advice that i have given you.

[Vulture]

Oh, never tried to use that thing from the inventory but when I reconsider. I use other items from the inv, too. Didn't realize that, haha ^^ thx

I did use your hints, without them I would have stopped right after clearing Kordar. So you gave me good insight, but actually what really helps with red dragons ? Unlimited range line breath is just annoying rather than challenging.
I mean, of course I can limit myself down to almost no free movement and place my 3 ranged units in a line vertically, block them with thorns and NEVER EVER move my melees in a possible diagonal oder horizontal line of sight to them. But, seriously, that's not what I consider fun gaming. Would be bearable as a mage, shackling and dragon arrowing in the first turn to have no threat from fireball/infernal exchange and an easy onehot dragon killer but that's not happening. It's either shackle ---> archers unleash hell on skellies or it's target: demonesses swap ranged unit with their demons or it's dragon arrows: both focused archers and swapped archers but a stack of dragons less. Annoyingly unavoidable stuff is what i hate the most, so practically the adventure is over for me. I still can win easily (we're talking normal diff here so we both know that that's not what bothers me ^^) but I don't see the point in "lol, whatever you do is wrong, lololrofl". I'll leave it up to people who don't mind that and see the fun anyway.

[Ryastar]

If they are bothering you, kill them. On normal difficulty it's as simple as that. Magic shackles first turn, send in one of sprites or lake fairies to attack. Dryads use lullaby. Range units kill. Unless your leadership is brutally low or you don't have one or two levels in onslaught (and you have had plenty of might runes, so I've been assuming you got at least one level in it), the red dragons should die and be out of your life. If your leadership isn't now between say 16k-20k ish depending on how many levels you took leadership upgrades that may be your problem right there. Or if you never went up to the top of the might tree (something all classes should do, even one level of tactics and onslaught can make the difference in the late game)

Sorry if you have answered any of the above in previous posts, I don't have time just now to reread the thread. I am also sorry if I seem to be condescending or arrogant, I am not trying to be.

[Elwin]

Unaviodable stuff ^^ reminds me when i tried to get Xeona early just after storming Bogacho. She had like 2 stacks of 200 demonesses 2 stacks of 350 imps and some others i dont remember , begining of the fight wasnt bad, mass magic shackles on start of course. Things got screwed when from Xeona'a demon portal came another demoness and did swap inqisitor with one of 200 demonesses so he directly destroyed my skel archers. I loaded game in that moment even if i win, losses would be to heavy.Think i wil get her just before Karador or after him

The one thing annoys me i cleared elf land and i still cant find f*king gift spell ...
UPDATE : I am gonna write more that i cant find something on this forum lol , its another time i found something just after writing it on forum while i was searching for it few days :D Got my gift spell .. so now : I cant find poison dagger :D I will be set completly than

[Vulture]

Easy Ryastar, you do not appear arrogant to me, you're trying to help but indeed your proposals got answered before. I got onslaught 2. Didn't get might runes the last 2 lvlups and they cost 600k @ Bogacho. And the next 2 would go into Dark Commander3. My skels go after enemy dragons. There's no chance for me to eliminate 3 Dragon stacks in turn one to just get rid of them before they can act. Especially not w/o dragon arrows. But that would actually be a dream scenario :> But reality shows only my black dragons and my hunters go before enemy dragons and they together will do jack in terms of "just kill them". As for the she-elves I dumped them during dragon fights in lotd and for karador, they just fell like flies and of course all enemies instantly went for them first. I mean I went better with them ALSO behind the thorns and only the demons out of it, haha. I won the battles against blacks/emeralds/bones with 3 units and 2 only idling and that was easier than having the girls get eaten... ridiculous.

But nevertheless I am willing to believe although I've been there and done that. I will go with the she-elves setup once again and try to "just kill them". I'll tell you the outcome though I know it. But I don't want to appear "unteachable".

@Elwin: exactly, unavoidable annoying stuff. But as for the xeona battle I was lucky. I did exactly as you did but the stack that came out of the portal instantly got smashed by my demons. Must have been a bug since neither of the units had the turn at that moment. Was pretty funny. Mobs appear, smashed *thorn bush from left to right*, period ^^. So the battle went on the way it was planned, hehe. Without portaled stuff behind your blocker line of course this fight is a joke even at low lvl and ldr.

[Elwin]

About Xeona on normal it was quite easy on hard not exactly ^^
I did Lotd with easy using:
demon
emerald
inquisitor
skel archer
royal snake
Fight with Karador was so easy now :D Teleported demon into them at first, blocked skel archer with royal and inquistor and dragon, second round dragon arrow for skels so skell started destroying dark crystal, on the ebd of the second turn time back on demon and further finish this what demon didnt with royal snake, emerlad actualy was jobless xD Karador didnt even spend half of his mana and was dead xD
However that didnt work for Xeona, for her i exchanged inqi and emerald with sprite and like fairy ( actualy its end of my second time but i used little girls first time) and then it was also very easy, and i exchanged royal snake with hunter since i wanted xeona and than royals lose their power

Stil no poison dagger :( I think i will never get if i havent got it yet .. and finding anything in murok is just to late.

[Elwin]

Double post kinda but kinda different thing

No poison dagger and even no pain skull ( thought its guaranteed before) makes some things harder

I am at liitle end game crisis and problem is .. Bagud .. had no problem with him as a mage now i tried many things and cant win without much loses. Of course still i can win but actualy every battle in this game is winnable and just depends how much loses it will bring.For me win with much loses is not realy a win...I went through whole Haas labyrinth without losses or with very very minor ones. IN attachment scrennshot of his army. ON addition to that, he always teleport melees to my archers starting with ogre anf vet orc.
Need good advice, its the hardest battle i had on this char even Karador was very easy for me ...
I have also sprites and lake fairys, i tried many combinations of troops with those 7, was using ice thorns to protect archers all end up with a failure

I have managed to kill him without tremendous ( 400 sprites 300 skels 20 demons 30 hunters,but still too high for me) losses and wiped Haas with those what i had left, but just for my self i wanna kill this Bagud with no losses or almost none

[Zonc]

Use vampires to block 2 of 3 paths leading to your base positions, Demons go main path, after their timeback use gloth armor or Ice Thorns to protect them until timeback cools down. Archers destroy cyclops, use magic shackles as first spell (no catapults' firebomb and shamans' powers, but some losses unevitable)

And yes his teleport thing is very annoying ^^ usually for minimizing losses I use the combo: vampire stands by last enemy unit (only retaliates, no attack), cast sacrifice on unit that didn't take any losses (usually Demons) and then timeback them. Works pretty well epecially with lvl 3 chaos magic (saves time)