Archdemons

[Keneth]

ok, everyone is probably aware that archdemons suck, they're not completely useless but aren't really worth having in your army either. Why they were left as such is left to speculations since, as apparent from their atom file, they were supposed to be stronger and have at least 2 more abilities. But putting that aside, I've been planning on giving them a significant buff for one of my mods for a while but now that I'm actually thinking about what I want to change, I find myself at a loss. I'd appreciate it if anyone could offer some suggestions on the matter.

At this point I'm considering giving them the ability to summon demons (3-4 round to recharge) and the ability to turn a troop into a sheep (1 charge).

[Gatts]

Summon Demon + Sheep sounds good.

I first thought that fire rain / fireball could be added, but as it does not really work on dragons - especially on BDs -> the demon summon sounds much more alluring (using them as tank/distract unit) + sheep - works great on lower leveled but outnumbered units (like 1800 archers :) )

Actually what I would add : No retaliation ability (but maybe I am too nostalgic about HOMM 3)

Or instead Sheep - some BUFF spell could be added
- GIFT (Demon army is strong on their skills - but they may run out of these skills and for longer battles the demon army is weaker and weaker - so free GIFT would be nice)
- mass Initiative... (well - this may sound overpowered, but when Undead have so many speed improving options - Rina, Undead Commander, why not demons?)
- Magic Spring ? ... Would this be too much ? (In combination with summon demon...)

Or - instead of skills, give him some more resistances - so he could be really used TANK unit - and his teleportation ability would be more of a benefit (I would not send archdemon in enemies frontline - as god armor does not work on him and stoneskin + his natural restance = 50% DMG resistance... not to mention that many enemies have magic/poison attacks...) -> Would just GOD armor work on him :)

I personally would create new ability:
GAZE of DOOM -> would be like alchemysts acid srpay - but astral damage - with his teleportation ability this could be greatly used as "hit and run" strategy, possibly hitting the most dangerous units no matter how good they hide :) - so his resistances would not be important anymore - using Wait + Teleport this would make him THE SOLUTION for destroying enemies strategy, ignoring their TANKS and using their "grouping" agains them

[Lestas]

maybe...
* 2 turns cooldown. Warp target friendly stack to adjacent cell (to archdemon)
* 2 turns cooldown. Melee fire-based (or 2 cell distance) attack without retaliation
* 1 charge. Completely remove any target from the battlefild for one turn (the cell should be disabled for entering by any other troops for this turn)
* 1 charge. Lifts target enemy into the air and drops 'em down causing damage depending on their max_hp and quantity.

[Gatts]

maybe...
* 2 turns cooldown. Warp target friendly stack to adjacent cell (to archdemon)
* 2 turns cooldown. Melee fire-based (or 2 cell distance) attack without retaliation
* 1 charge. Completely remove any target from the battlefild for one turn (the cell should be disabled for entering by any other troops for this turn)
* 1 charge. Lifts target enemy into the air and drops 'em down causing damage depending on their max_hp and quantity.

Warp Target ... "Master's Call" or " Hell Yell" or "Portal of DOOM" - I like this one especially as it is new/original, and also quite usefull as I usually use "hit and run" tactics -> So I could call back my vamps - and they will be able to hit one round more often each second round...GREAT!

Fire Melee - 2 cell distance -> "Hell Flame" ? or "Fire Gaze" ? (or Doom Gaze) ... as archdemon is spawn of hell - this makes sense... as long he will have the LIFT as well - so he will be usefull against dragons, without directly hitting them

Remove one stack from battlefield - VERY INTERESTING... Would be great that it could last 2 turns if you have 10+ units of archdemons (more than 16000 Leadership - easy for Warrior, hard for mage) ... could be called "Demon Cage" or "Hell Prison" ... As long it works on black dragons, I totally like it.

[Keneth]

I'm thinking AoE fire damage to everyone standing beside the archdemons, that way you could teleport to the middle of the opposing army and dish out some heavy damage, it wouldn't be very effective against demons or dragons but I'm aiming for good, not overpowered. And maybe a self-buffing ability similar to the one dark knights have except it would increase their resistance to damage making them a more effective tank.

This is all assuming that I figure out how to script abilities because right now I don't really get it. :mrgreen:

[Gatts]

"ring of Fire" sounds good... actually very good - what I really missed was "ring" area damage spell / ability

Funny is that in games like HOMM3 the least used damage spell of mine was Ring of ICE (and now I wonder why, as I totally did use TANK tactics - where my one unit was overcircled by enemy stacks... ) - maybe I just used buff/debuff and ressurect... and you could use only one spell / turn :)

[Lestas]

Ring area spell is Lightning Barrier (Ritualists) ;)

[Keneth]

Ring area spell is Lightning Barrier (Ritualists) ;)Yup, more or less the same thing, except your lightning barrier can be targeted (I think, haven't tried it yet) and mine works only on archdemons like the green dragon's mana drain ability.

[Keneth]

ok, so I got the aoe fire thingy and demon summoning working and I'm gonna do the armor feature in the morning, so that leaves one talent slot open for debate. I'm deciding between an aggressive ability like Sheep or an unaggressive ability like Callback or a demon-specific Gift. Callback seems like it could be abused for hit and run tactics too much and the Gift ability like a waste of slot and abusable with phantom. I'll have to give it some more thought...

[Lestas]

Sheep is a great overpower :) Callback can be limited to 1 use per battle or recharge rate should be about 3-4 turns. Demon-specific gift...you can make it so that it won't end Archdemon's turn if you think it's too weak ;)

btw Archdemons aren't as weak as you say:
* auto-dispell
* "unlimited" speed
* fire resists
* not bad Attack
* u gave them aoe fire-attack
* u gave them demon summoning ability
so the 3rd ability should be not so strong :) or their leadership should be increased

[Gatts]

Maybe for the beginning you could let it as is Keneth - we will test it (you and many other palyers... me for sure ) and we will find out if the already done improvements are good enough or if we still miss something...

I am mostly having problems in fights on hard/impossible, but many other players still consider them "easy" so hard to discuss balance as each player has his/her own view of "how hard it really is"

The question should be - do we want make archdemon "a teamplayer" or "super-hero"? Meaning - do we want him to take the place of green dragon in combats, or make his abilities more buff/debuff like so the other units would benefit...

I would vote for super-hero -> as I always liked "no-brain" strategies, were I would benefit from his teleport / hit and run ability -> replenishing possible shooter damage or armageddon damage by demon portal / sacrifive (if warrior - these would be the only two spells I would be able to use per one battle ... maybe one more speed, or iron skin :) )

[Keneth]

I'm gonna leave the last talent empty, they're good enough for now.

[Keneth]

Alright, I think I'm finally satisfied with these guys, they don't seem insanely powerful but I haven't really tested them in battle yet apart from animations (which I actually still haven't decided on but they should be fine for now). If anyone wants to try them out let me know and I'll post the files here, they're not really KBMaster compatible but I haven't changed any major game files so they should be compatible with just about everything else.

[Gatts]

Of course we want to try it (I want for sure) :)

The reason why I use undead only is that archdemons were weak IMO... so I can't wait to to try the new ones :)

(I will finish soon my first game with AoD only army anyway... some change is totally welcome... as I am sure i want to re-start KB again :D )

[Lestas]

Alright, I think I'm finally satisfied with these guys, they don't seem insanely powerful but I haven't really tested them in battle yet apart from animations (which I actually still haven't decided on but they should be fine for now). If anyone wants to try them out let me know and I'll post the files here, they're not really KBMaster compatible but I haven't changed any major game files so they should be compatible with just about everything else.
It's sad that this mod and AoD are not compatile

[Gatts]

Is there really no way to make it compatible... ? Please??

[Lestas]

Is there really no way to make it compatible... ? Please??

There are always at least two ways out of any situation :)

[Keneth]

Here's the files in a neat little package, I'll make KBM version if/when I feel like it. Or maybe someone will be nice enough and bother to make it in my stead, either way don't keep any expectations. :P

Let me know if you find any bugs or whatever. Also I used part of armageddon's animation for fire blast and it might be a bit excessive, so if anyone wants to use the simpler fireground animation, I can give you the instructions (it's just a matter of (un)commenting a couple of lines).

No readme file included, I don't see any need since it's not a real mod.