what Allied aircraft are the best in this game?

[Laurwin]

Howdy virtual fliers out there!

So, I was just thinking about this question for myself yesterday. I decided to try and glean off some insights from the community for this purpose.

As things are in online servers, fw190 is clearly the choice of warbird for axis, unless more advanced design e.g. Ta-152, or the jet fighters are avqilable. Choices for Allied will be tempered by this consideration more often than not.

Allied vs fw190a4
Allied vs fw190 a5
Allied vs fw190 a9

Ive had ok successes with a gaggle of contemporary allied fighters, but i prefer p-47 D, or mustang from allied. Those are my fav warbirds from allied, although id like to get better with tempest also. That tempest is a trim hog though!

Reason being, with p-47 I can outdive focke, I can outperform and bnz the high flying fockes, and I can outrun focke if needed. Granted, the lack of cannons is not nice with american but the important raw performance is there in engine and airframe to be unlshed.

to me, the late war american planes seem like excellent choices. Why feel guilty about flying "a better fighter" for allied, when focke pilots do the same vs outdated spits andrussian fighters. Ok, admittedly sometimes i feel guilty but only a little bit :D
I dont really sofar fly with a squadron though, so also the higher alt tactic may incease survivability, and you can still defend allied ground troops, or rather give high cover to allied team mates covering allied ground troops. Written with cellphone so forgive me lol

[gaunt1]

For allied, you mean strictly american or british fighters? If not, then try the La-7. It is maybe the best aircraft in the game, no axis aircraft can match its performance, they are not even close. They cant turn, cant climb and cant run. But keep in mind, La-7 has maybe the least realistic FM, so if it is important for you, forget this plane. If you wish, you can actually turn with a Zero in a La-7!

[JtD]

It depends on your style and the environment, really. For instance, I prefer a P-51 over Spitfire, though the damage the 0.50ies deal to the 190 is usually laughable. But then, I like fast hit and run, and the Spitfire can't run at all. Another good aircraft is the Tempest, fast with a powerful armament, but the handling isn't as nice as that of the P-51. Obviously, there are no P-51 and Tempest around to counter the A-4 or A-5, so it's probably best to stick with the Spitfire VIII and IX. Unless you're good with a P-38. Contemporary Soviet planes are totally outclassed, except for maybe the Yak-9u. The rest is just cannon fodder. Can't dive, limited firepower, no high altitude performance.

[Laurwin]

I appreciate your responses guys. I meant all allied, but personally i tend to gravitate more towards western allied.

How does la-5 fn fly against a4 and a5 fockes? More in terms of bnz flight characteristics. Turn fighting just tends to get you killed quite often ( less SA, and fairly low E state)

What about p39 for some russian bnz?

So, p38 should be a close match to contemporary focke when well flown? Its not the most popular allied plane thats for sure, prob takes a good bit of skill to be good at.

For british, tell me aboit best spitfire marks. I thoughtt that spit9 25lbs was the best one.
Are the HF spit9s worth flying against typical focke? What about seafire3, and spit8 also?definitely i must say, i greatly prefer mustangs and tbolts for their high speed performance. With those planes you can use "blue collar battletactics" against fockes.
Simple enough, find them, dive on them, kill them. If they run away, catch them and kill them. Blue collar tactics for sure, none of that fancy spitfire aerobatics lol :D

p38 might be good also, but dive controllability isnt good ( compressibility)
Fast spitfire marks also cannot sustainably catch focke in a dive, but in a short distance dive fast spitfire could catch focke ( speed still not being too high)?

Good diving characteriatic of mustang came tto my aid a few days ago vs focke. I wasoutdiving the focke badly. He kept going steeper for more speed. He reached the.sealevel and i was still on to him at 1,5km. He pulled up and ripped both of his wings off. He did all the work for me, didnt even have to shoot hehe!

[gaunt1]

I appreciate your responses guys. I meant all allied, but personally i tend to gravitate more towards western allied.

How does la-5 fn fly against a4 and a5 fockes? More in terms of bnz flight characteristics. Turn fighting just tends to get you killed quite often ( less SA, and fairly low E state)

What about p39 for some russian bnz?


Below 3500m, Fw-190 is no match for a La-5FN. Cant climb, cant turn and cant run, a very easy target. Above 3500m, the Fw begins to get faster than the La-5, but accelerates slowly and its climb performance is also poor, still a very easy prey. Online its different, with good teamwork, it is possible to beat the Lavochkins. But 1 vs 1, Fw-190 is still hopelessly inferior.

P-39 is not that good against the Fw, because its way too slow, maybe except at medium altitudes where the 190 switches supercharger gears. You have to force him to turn fight, but it is only possible against inexperienced opponents. Also, the Cobra is quite vulnerable, catches fire easily, not a good thing if you face the FW's cannons.

[TinyTim]

Yak-9U at low and P-51 at high altitudes.

[Woke Up Dead]

The La-5FN and the La-7 are tough 1v1 opponents for any German plane, though I find the 5FN loses a lot above 2000m.

The 190 is not really a good 1v1 plane against any allied fighter, but it's probably the plane that benefits from a wing-man the most in this game. For example, 1v1 I'll take the La-7 anytime, but in a 2v2 scenario I'll go for the 190, even if it's an A-9, and definitely if it's an 190-D.

Agree with Tiny Tim: Yak 9U is great against German planes up to about 5000m, the P51 is great above that. The P63 can also do very well against late-war German fighters.

[IceFire]

The FW190 is a top notch fighter but it does have some excellent contemporaries...

FW190A-4 vs

La-5 (at low alts)
Yak-9 or Yak-1B (at low alts)
Spitfire F.IX (or on the outside a LF.Vb model with clipped wings at low alt)

FW190A-5 vs

Similar to the list above... add P-47D-22 and Yak-9T

FW190A-9 vs

Tempest Mark V
Spitfire LF.IX
P-51D
P-47D-27
Yak-9U
La-5FN or La-7


Lots of different techniques to fight the FW190 on a variety of terms but most of those can hold their own if flown to their full abilities. The Yak-1B or Yak-9 series are better counters than most give credit for... they may be typically slower but they can follow the FW190 through many evasion techniques on account of similarly impressive roll rate. Spitfires listed are nearly as fast, great climb rates, but usually not enough roll rate... the clipped wings do help mind you.

The Tempest is the best RAF counter to the FW190 and perhaps the best pound for pound contemporary. Similarly fast, well armed, etc. The Typhoon in many ways is a good counter but didn't quite have the roll rate (having one of the worst roll rates of any European theatre fighter) or turn rate but it did have the speed which most types didn't. Too bad we don't have it yet...

[Igo kyu]

The FW190 is a top notch fighter but it does have some excellent contemporaries...

FW190A-4 vs

La-5 (at low alts)
Yak-9 or Yak-1B (at low alts)
Spitfire F.IX (or on the outside a LF.Vb model with clipped wings at low alt)

FW190A-5 vs

Similar to the list above... add P-47D-22 and Yak-9T

FW190A-9 vs

Tempest Mark V
Spitfire LF.IX
P-51D
P-47D-27
Yak-9U
La-5FN or La-7


Lots of different techniques to fight the FW190 on a variety of terms but most of those can hold their own if flown to their full abilities. The Yak-1B or Yak-9 series are better counters than most give credit for... they may be typically slower but they can follow the FW190 through many evasion techniques on account of similarly impressive roll rate. Spitfires listed are nearly as fast, great climb rates, but usually not enough roll rate... the clipped wings do help mind you.

The Tempest is the best RAF counter to the FW190 and perhaps the best pound for pound contemporary. Similarly fast, well armed, etc. The Typhoon in many ways is a good counter but didn't quite have the roll rate (having one of the worst roll rates of any European theatre fighter) or turn rate but it did have the speed which most types didn't. Too bad we don't have it yet...
I don't really know it in game, but historically I thought the Yak 3 was supposed to be a smaller lighter aircraft than the Yak 9, with less fuel and thus range, but better performance and turn times? It first appeared later than the Yak 9, despite the numerical sequence.

[Laurwin]

So, it looks more like I have to work on my defensive maanouvers and tactics more.
But still, good focke pilots can be tough to beat for sure, with these "midwar planes" (1942-43).

I had a great time yesterday with spits though, i was flying wingman with one of those jg77 guys, we got some nice bursts hitting fockes but not always te exploding fireball-type of kills (even with some cannon into fuel area lol)

Actually i was playing with adjusted network setring for il2 (packet size was set to the lowestt modem setting, in il2 setup) it may have been bad convergence also though,foee my hispanos.

[IceFire]

I don't really know it in game, but historically I thought the Yak 3 was supposed to be a smaller lighter aircraft than the Yak 9, with less fuel and thus range, but better performance and turn times? It first appeared later than the Yak 9, despite the numerical sequence.

The Yak-3 works too... I did neglect to include it. The Yak-3 is great for being able to turn and burn and power its way through whatever turn, roll, snap, etc. that you want it to. It doesn't dive as well as the Yak-9U does so against the FW190A-9 I'd rather be in a Yak-9U... but the Yak-3 will work. In a close in fight the Yak-3 is superior than pretty much everything it might fight against.

[gaunt1]

I don't really know it in game, but historically I thought the Yak 3 was supposed to be a smaller lighter aircraft than the Yak 9, with less fuel and thus range, but better performance and turn times? It first appeared later than the Yak 9, despite the numerical sequence.

The designers wanted better speed and climb rate. It had different wing than other Yaks, which was thinner and smaller than before. And despite lighter weight, wing loading increased, so turn rate deteriorated actually, although not too much thanks to the slightly more powerful engine. Historically, the best turning serial produced soviet planes were the Yak-1B with M-105PF engine and the first Yak-9 model. (after the I-15/153 and the I-16 of course)

[Janosch]

Actually, any thought that a given Luftwaffe plane is poor, weaker-than-x, not so good, inferior or anything is defeatist attitude and punishable by court martial (if you fly blue side). Tactics help a lot, and maybe surprise too. As long as you have a plane that can dive, you're good. You just need room to dive. Goes for both sides. But you can't really rely on your wingmen, though, ever.

It's no good underestimating the allies' equipment! .50 cal is super deadly, especially in a plane that has 6 guns. It really doesn't often make enemies explode, but one burst can cripple a 190 or even set it into fire, and then it's goodbye.

Btw there's nothing unrealistic about La-7 fm... it actually stalls if you pull the stick too much, unlike La-5FN.

[Igo kyu]

The designers wanted better speed and climb rate. It had different wing than other Yaks, which was thinner and smaller than before. And despite lighter weight, wing loading increased, so turn rate deteriorated actually, although not too much thanks to the slightly more powerful engine. Historically, the best turning serial produced soviet planes were the Yak-1B with M-105PF engine and the first Yak-9 model. (after the I-15/153 and the I-16 of course)
Right, that makes a lot of sense, I had a feeling the in game version wasn't the best turner possible, I thought maybe it had the later heavier engine (VK-107?).

[gaunt1]

Btw there's nothing unrealistic about La-7 fm... it actually stalls if you pull the stick too much, unlike La-5FN.

First, its ~25 km/h faster than any serial produced La-7. (685 vs 661) Then, there is the uber turning ability. I tested it: You can outturn an I-16 type 24, and you can turn with the A6M2 Zero too!
wing loading: La-7 - 185 kg/m3, I-16 - 130 kg/m3. Still, the La turns better ingame! But I think we should continue it in soviet fighters thread.

Right, that makes a lot of sense, I had a feeling the in game version wasn't the best turner possible, I thought maybe it had the later heavier engine (VK-107?).

That version is also in the game! :)

[Woke Up Dead]

Right, that makes a lot of sense, I had a feeling the in game version wasn't the best turner possible, I thought maybe it had the later heavier engine (VK-107?).

It (Yak 3) isn't, it's also not that powerful. Many contemporary allied planes will beat it in a simple sustained flat turn, and so will good 109 G2 pilots. It's small and extremely "twisty" though, its very good turn rate and excellent roll rate let it create opportunities.


"I had a great time yesterday with spits though, i was flying wingman with one of those jg77 guys, we got some nice bursts hitting fockes but not always te exploding fireball-type of kills (even with some cannon into fuel area lol)"

Yes, the more I fly it, the more I realize that the Spit is probably the best plane overall against German opposition. Yes, the USA planes are better very high, and some of the Soviet planes are better very low, but the Spits are always the safest bet.

[TinyTim]

Right, that makes a lot of sense, I had a feeling the in game version wasn't the best turner possible, I thought maybe it had the later heavier engine (VK-107?).

No, Yak-3 has a VK-105 PF2 engine with about 1300 HP.

Yak-3 was actually a third generation of Yak-1 design. It was an evolution of Yak-1B (hence initial designation Yak-1M) - it had smaller wing (which traded off some of the Yak-1B excellent turn rate for roll rate and speed) that made its flight characteristics more "Fw-190-ish", oil cooler moved from the chin into wingroots, another UBS heavyhitter installed into the cowling, engine replaced for slightly more powerful VK-105 PF2 and reduced overall weight. That's about it.

VK-107 engine was installed onto Yak-3 only after the war.

[pandacat]

For allied, you mean strictly american or british fighters? If not, then try the La-7. It is maybe the best aircraft in the game, no axis aircraft can match its performance, they are not even close. They cant turn, cant climb and cant run. But keep in mind, La-7 has maybe the least realistic FM, so if it is important for you, forget this plane. If you wish, you can actually turn with a Zero in a La-7!

Remember this is Russian built game. Russian planes were meant to be the stars.:D

[TinyTim]

Remember this is Russian built game. Russian planes were meant to be the stars.:D

It's a shame they really aren't. In general they're outclassed by their german counterparts.

Of course they shine (and did so historically) at 1v1 twisting and turning at treetop level, but not much of WW2 aerial combat looked like that.

[Laurwin]

Nice and lively discussion we got here!

Like I said, I had some great flights with spit8 and spit9 against fw190s. Just gotta keep that energy up for various reasons. Primarily attacking with bnz, but it's also possible to execute many manouvers from higher speed than slower speed I feel. It gives you more options, to start from a higher E state, if you become defensive. Spitfire is so versatile aircraft, but bad thing is not so good dive capability. Otherwise it's quite good (later mark spits 8-14). I have a feeling that you might be better at diving, if youre against bf109, but the fw190 straight up outdives spit.

But I had a really great time on Skies of Valor last nite, with F4Fs out of all planes, vs zekes.

We had a pack of wildcats, ca. 8 guys in red TS channel, radio discipline was extremely effective although still relaxed enough. Situational awareness was as good as it gets (admittedly theres outside views and enemy views on that server too though)

First the zekes attack our carriers, we go into these lufbery circles and do our best at low alt turn fighting, we outnumbered them a little bit so we managed.

After that we got to like 3-4k, organized ourselves and started BnZing those zekes. We also drag-and-bagged a good bunch of them. Also a couple successful thach weave kills IIRC. It was so much fun! :cool:

P-38, I'd like to learn how to be more effective with it, but it's not that manouverable to be dead-honest. You just get out-rolled so easily, even in L late, and doesn't turn so good either. I wonder if it can even outrun anything the germans have, contemporary 190 and 109.

Trying to put the pipper on barrel-rolling 190, with a p-38, feels like exercise in futility LOL

[MaxGunz]

It's better to not try and follow a target with the pipper. Establish the pattern and aim ahead. When the target is -time- enough away from the aim point that shots will arrive at the same time, let off a burst.

The steadiest aim is when the controls are held still. Notice how changing speed and/or trying to make small adjustments gets nose bob/weave that does not happen when you are flying smooth? I find that it's easier to line up shots when the target is moving relative to my pipper, I pick a spot ahead of the movement and whether my flight is straight or curved my pipper is not wobbling. And that usually gets me deflection hits (when I do hit) which don't have to travel through the length of the target and get stopped by tail wheel, etc, and seat armor to achieve cockpit, engine and wing root hits.

The worst way to attack AI is to try and get co-speed on his six at under 300 meters. By the time you've lined that up it's going or gone evasive. Come in fast from a rear quarter, shoot deflection and you surprise them.

The AI are dummies, especially about off-angles. You can play to their strengths or their weaknesses.

[Laurwin]

hehe, I didn't say prob with p-38 was against AI?

but true enough, what you're saying makes sense.

indeed, it might be better practice, to not use "following method" with establishing lead, especially with energy fighters bnz. Following method works ok with hard turners like spits though.

More usually though online, there wont be so easy shots initially. Bounced bandit starts hard break turn, divingg at the same time, sometimes alternating the angle, diving or climbing (he's looking at attacker fromside window.)
I would do that with a spitfire to avoid getting hit, if I see a fw190 approaching fast and turning into me, with an uncomfortable looking angle.

this kind of deflection shot is almost impossible to predict (with a p-38 at least!). But Indeed, he will have that much less E later on at his disposal.

I thought that for maximum accuracy, you should be in a sustained low-g turn, or otherwise low-g on the airframe when shooting.

I dunno why that is, maybe it is in the German aerial gunnery manual.

Does it have something to do with the G-forces affecting upon the gun barrels?
Like, during sustained turn there's constant G, then the bullets spend a short time inside the barrel when being fired, and then the barrels are pointing ever so slightly differently, when the bullets exit the barrel? After that the bullets obviously are ballistic and unaffected?

[JtD]

Years of playing this game have taught me the following:

If you spot an opponent, check if you have the energy advantage, meaning if you're higher or considerably faster. If you are, dive, attack, extend. Come back if suitable. If not, get out of there. Which means that while I'm fairly successful in shooting down enemy aircraft and don't get shot down a lot, I hardly ever fight. I just kill or run.

The P-38 is fairly fast for it's time, climbs fairly well and has a decent firepower concentrated in its nose. It's got plenty of ammo for the .50ies. It is however somewhat sluggish at high speed, which means it is easier for the opponent to evade an attack. It's just physics, and there's nothing I can do about it. I can, however, start firing from further out than I can for instance in a Spitfire. I can also maintain a higher speed for longer, which makes extension easier. And the good climb rate permits extension in shallow climbs, which usually is a bad idea for instance in contemporary P-47's.

All in all, it isn't some marvellous killer, it is a good combat aircraft, which because of higher speeds and better high speed retention is somewhat easier to stay alive in than a Spitfire. It is a worse dogfighter, so don't dogfight with it like you would in a Spitfire. I usually don't dogfight, which makes the P-38 as good as a Spitfire for me.

[gaunt1]

Just curious, what about the Seafire? In IL-2 compare, its performance is quite unimpressive.

[IceFire]

Just curious, what about the Seafire? In IL-2 compare, its performance is quite unimpressive.

The Seafire III comes in two versions: F.III and the LF.III

These are based around the Spitfire Vc with both engine choices.. the LF model having the low altitude cropped supercharger which offers excellent performance under 10,000 feet/3000 meters while the F version peaks around 18000 feet/5000ish meters. Against the Japanese fighters like the Zero... you have nearly all of the advantages. Against others you have to treat it like the best refined Spitfire V models around... great handling but it doesn't have the power to have the climb or speed that the Mark VIII or IX Spitfires have.

So a significant altitude advantage or forcing in the close fight is the best option.

[Laurwin]

There must ve something im doing wrong with tempy because im not having too good success with it.

Any online tips, operational/tqctical for tempest? I remember one mission where i was self appointed flighleadde ( 4ship). We went into normandy to reconnoitre and strike at vehicles, climb to 3km before crossing the wire. My teammates did excellent, one guy from us bagged 3 confirmed kills. That hero of the hour was none other than mightyjingle actually, our friendly floridan, who was this time in the harsh realm of full real server. So we dropped ordinance, but afyer tjat evertone kinda got separayed and we got pickwd off one by one

[IceFire]

There must ve something im doing wrong with tempy because im not having too good success with it.

Any online tips, operational/tqctical for tempest? I remember one mission where i was self appointed flighleadde ( 4ship). We went into normandy to reconnoitre and strike at vehicles, climb to 3km before crossing the wire. My teammates did excellent, one guy from us bagged 3 confirmed kills. That hero of the hour was none other than mightyjingle actually, our friendly floridan, who was this time in the harsh realm of full real server. So we dropped ordinance, but afyer tjat evertone kinda got separayed and we got pickwd off one by one

Tempest? What's not to like... its fast, climbs well, hits very hard, has a great roll rate, and great all around vision including an un-obstructive gunsight. It's not a turn and burn fighter so you can't chuck it around too much. Its a bit easier to handle than the Mustang on account of weight and wing loading and it has a ton of power (over 2000hp). My suggestion is to keep it in the medium altitude range and boom and zoom everything in sight. You can hold turns but keep them short and then zoom for a new position and shot.

Get good enough so that your first shot hits. With the Tempest the first shot is often the last shot... its a brutally destructive fighter. There are times where after a two second burst the 109 I'm shooting at has no wings and everything else is riddled with holes. Sometimes it takes a bit more with the FW190 or a various larger aircraft but a concentrated burst will destroy anythign.

[MaxGunz]

When you are moving fast there are better ways to change direction than through horizontal turns. In fact, every other way is more efficient.

Horizontal turns past 20 or 30 degrees are for angle fighters and mudhens.

A half loop is better than an extended horizontal turn. Zooming up and turning at your best turn speed is better. Turning on a tilted circle is better. Rolling while zoom climbing or steeply diving and pulling out on the new heading is better. You can regain lost speed by losing height once you have changed direction, you will have lost less energy than in a horizontal turn at high speed if you keep the G's you pull down so don't jerk the nose up and expect great results, that won't work.

A good lone-plane exercise is to start flying a wide horizontal circle a few times around to get your speed up and stable. Then make the circle tilt and let it go egg shape. Don't let it get slow at the top and see how fast you get along the bottom then tilt up some more. With practice and observation you can find out what slows you down and what lets you go the fastest. Keep an eye on slip (The Ball) until you don't need to, watch your trim or make it neutral and see what effect that has.
In time work some pure vertical into it and roll to change your exit heading, for high speed planes with lousy wingloading and good to great roll rates there is no quicker way to make radical heading changes.

Or you can turn your FW the same way you'd turn a Spit and complain how poorly FW's turn.

Add: if you maintain your energy then people who do not will think you're cheating. Some will even say so.

[Laurwin]

Half loop equates to immelman?

or would you do it more often, as a climb, followed by a stall-turn left or right, back into the original direction?

Fair enough, turning isn't too good, admitttedly though, you can still turn and cruise at fast speed around the trgt area with tempest.

Doing immelmans would probably be a blessing for a sudden attack from a focke wulf (low speed tempest, can't evade easily, maybe I need more low speed handling knowledge with some planes). I've also heard, keep tempest fast, once airborne.

Still, I'll keep advice in mind, and probably have more gunnery exercise with tempest.

It seems like you don't get to much gunnery with hispano cannons online. Spitfires for example. Mostly I try to ambush and bnz with them, they are def not an ac for spray and pray hehe.


To MaxGuns though. I can sort of visually picture the "energy egg"picture from wikipedia, showcasing rolling dives, climbs and turns. Let me ask you this though, does it really have tangible tactical value, or is it just a picture showcasing why some manouver works the way it does?

It seems that indeed you can "turn downwards" more easily with the help of earth gravity, maybe this helps if you ever get into vertical rolling scissors (indeed at the top of the energy egg, like a real egg, is more conical and pointy, as opposed to rounder and flatter like the bottom, therefore you get good turn rate and radius this way.)

then I would imagine, that you can use the sides of the energy egg to shorten the turn radius, at the expense of higher turn rate.(like high yoyo and low yoyo, both shorten turn radius, because of vertical element, but turn rateis not indeed at maximum values, except at the end of manouver you can maybe pull more Gs)

hehe, probably I don't do so good because I sometimes revert to old habits of turn fighting, instead of iron discipline E management. Then again oftentimes I'm flinyg alone on full real and get bounced once in a awhile on these big servers. *sniff* other people are playing on their own squadron teamspeak

[MaxGunz]

I wish I had ended the handle with an s instead of a z, back in 1998. Oh well.

Flying the egg is mostly for teaching though I have used it to reverse a fight or two when I had slower, better turning enemies behind me.

You can use an Immelman coming out if the top at stall but I don't recommend that in a combat area at all. If you're going fast enough to come out of a vertical half loop with speed enough to dodge shots then tilt the loop and do a wingover, which btw is what Immelman much more likely did in his Eindekker than the maneuver that got his name.

Practicing the egg will teach you when you have the speed to do what, for one thing. It ceases to be theory in a while and you can transition in and out with more ease and success.

If you have alt and not enough speed, the half loop can go down(wards).

Every turn with a vertical element even if done 30 degrees to horizontal has some gravity-avoiding elements to it simply because your path is not crossing gravity at 90 degrees. You still slow down if you're rising but that is a separate factor you can regain when you descend.

From a 45 degree to vertical zoom or dive the slick trick is to roll to point your canopy where you want to go and then pull out *with care to not stall which bleeds your E terribly* on the new heading.

I don't remember exactly but I think that Shaw covers these things in his book Fighter Combat.

If you don't have speed greater than best turn it is still good to drop in a shallow descent in the first half of a turn and regain height in the second half rather than flying a purely horizontal turn. You can turn a bit tighter +and+ come out faster using the down and up. It's a great way to catch up to an opponent sticking to turning on the flat because he knows you can't turn as well and a good way to begin to learn the turning yoyo tactic.

There's a whole bag of tricks that become apparent once you've practiced the egg enough times. Call it The Vertical, I can't recall seeing the AI use it but that's no surprise since it usually involves stringing maneuvers together to achieve an advantageous outcome.

When I fly energy, every pass I make where the target loses more than I do is a step towards my victory whether I fire a shot or even make a hit or not. The energy game is mostly about relative energy but it's also about not getting yourself below your best turn envelope no matter the temptation of an easy shot he presents. Once he loses speed or height you've already made your gain. That's something the AI hasn't a clue about.

I just flying, as long as you can keep decent trim and close to zero slip and fly with a light touch the AI having perfect trim and zero slip and excellent control won't be enough of an advantage to cover the AI's lack of tactical ability. They're also lousy at angle shots as long as you don't hold a straight or steady turn too long probably because they don't get the cycles to do so but maybe because of lack of code routines altogether.

It's like starting out in IL2 one of the first campaign frustrations is catching up to your flight. Then you learn to not just point your nose at them until you have your speed up and then you will have to slow down before you do catch them.
Slow and nose high just eats power and gets you nowhere. They don't have rockets, you have the bad habits drag chute is more on the mark. That's the lesson anyone should learn after a while and maybe with a few pointers like "get your nose down" and "build up speed before you shallow climb".

The Ai are not a terror to the better pilot players here. At least not until you're outnumbered badly in a LaGG 3 vs 109-F's and then only the really good ones think "challenge" instead of "sphincter check".

[Laurwin]

I wish I had ended the handle with an s instead of a z, back in 1998. Oh well.

Flying the egg is mostly for teaching though I have used it to reverse a fight or two when I had slower, better turning enemies behind me.

You can use an Immelman coming out if the top at stall but I don't recommend that in a combat area at all. If you're going fast enough to come out of a vertical half loop with speed enough to dodge shots then tilt the loop and do a wingover, which btw is what Immelman much more likely did in his Eindekker than the maneuver that got his name.

Practicing the egg will teach you when you have the speed to do what, for one thing. It ceases to be theory in a while and you can transition in and out with more ease and success.

If you have alt and not enough speed, the half loop can go down(wards).

Every turn with a vertical element even if done 30 degrees to horizontal has some gravity-avoiding elements to it simply because your path is not crossing gravity at 90 degrees. You still slow down if you're rising but that is a separate factor you can regain when you descend.

From a 45 degree to vertical zoom or dive the slick trick is to roll to point your canopy where you want to go and then pull out *with care to not stall which bleeds your E terribly* on the new heading.

I don't remember exactly but I think that Shaw covers these things in his book Fighter Combat.

If you don't have speed greater than best turn it is still good to drop in a shallow descent in the first half of a turn and regain height in the second half rather than flying a purely horizontal turn. You can turn a bit tighter +and+ come out faster using the down and up. It's a great way to catch up to an opponent sticking to turning on the flat because he knows you can't turn as well and a good way to begin to learn the turning yoyo tactic.

There's a whole bag of tricks that become apparent once you've practiced the egg enough times. Call it The Vertical, I can't recall seeing the AI use it but that's no surprise since it usually involves stringing maneuvers together to achieve an advantageous outcome.

When I fly energy, every pass I make where the target loses more than I do is a step towards my victory whether I fire a shot or even make a hit or not. The energy game is mostly about relative energy but it's also about not getting yourself below your best turn envelope no matter the temptation of an easy shot he presents. Once he loses speed or height you've already made your gain. That's something the AI hasn't a clue about.

I just flying, as long as you can keep decent trim and close to zero slip and fly with a light touch the AI having perfect trim and zero slip and excellent control won't be enough of an advantage to cover the AI's lack of tactical ability. They're also lousy at angle shots as long as you don't hold a straight or steady turn too long probably because they don't get the cycles to do so but maybe because of lack of code routines altogether.

It's like starting out in IL2 one of the first campaign frustrations is catching up to your flight. Then you learn to not just point your nose at them until you have your speed up and then you will have to slow down before you do catch them.
Slow and nose high just eats power and gets you nowhere. They don't have rockets, you have the bad habits drag chute is more on the mark. That's the lesson anyone should learn after a while and maybe with a few pointers like "get your nose down" and "build up speed before you shallow climb".

The Ai are not a terror to the better pilot players here. At least not until you're outnumbered badly in a LaGG 3 vs 109-F's and then only the really good ones think "challenge" instead of "sphincter check".


Thanks for the expansive response.

Haha, indeed, sometimes I feel like human players are a little bit easier than ace AIs. Maybe you just get the feeling because of the long range shots that seldom hit anything online.

Against humans you definitely need the good positive attitude I think.

Usually in QBs offline, I just put 16 bandits and something like 8 friendly, with us having alt advantage. It can be tough at times, so it seems. (maybe you're on to something; maybe I could learn more still, about fighting the AIs)


I prob can still take on the AI ace 1v1 hopefully at least lol :oops:

Probably it just has to do with like, how you "train" for online. Mostly these bnz and ambush type of tactics work quite well in big dogfight server.

The idea being, train as you would fight. Don't surrender yourself into long lasting dogfights where you get target fixated, even if you are gaining advantage vs one bandit. Who's to say, online, the guy on the defense might have a friendly coming over to his rescue, from above clouds. Then the 1v1 with attacker advantage becomes 1v2 disadvantage.

It was actally raelly funny because this was what happened last week with F4Fs with us vs zeke. We went something like 8v3-5, local superirity. We were just a marauding pack of wildcats there and mowing down zeke left and right with bnz and effective radio comms.

Obviously it doesn't mean too much about individual skill perhaps, but it was great seeing historical tactics being used so nicely with wildcats. And after all, isn't war a team effort indeed? I say no mercy to the enemy, with these classic dogfight situations. Your own team should strive for every possible advantage :grin:

[IceFire]

Thanks for the expansive response.

Haha, indeed, sometimes I feel like human players are a little bit easier than ace AIs. Maybe you just get the feeling because of the long range shots that seldom hit anything online.

Against humans you definitely need the good positive attitude I think.

Usually in QBs offline, I just put 16 bandits and something like 8 friendly, with us having alt advantage. It can be tough at times, so it seems. (maybe you're on to something; maybe I could learn more still, about fighting the AIs)


I prob can still take on the AI ace 1v1 hopefully at least lol :oops:

Probably it just has to do with like, how you "train" for online. Mostly these bnz and ambush type of tactics work quite well in big dogfight server.

The idea being, train as you would fight. Don't surrender yourself into long lasting dogfights where you get target fixated, even if you are gaining advantage vs one bandit. Who's to say, online, the guy on the defense might have a friendly coming over to his rescue, from above clouds. Then the 1v1 with attacker advantage becomes 1v2 disadvantage.

It was actally raelly funny because this was what happened last week with F4Fs with us vs zeke. We went something like 8v3-5, local superirity. We were just a marauding pack of wildcats there and mowing down zeke left and right with bnz and effective radio comms.

Obviously it doesn't mean too much about individual skill perhaps, but it was great seeing historical tactics being used so nicely with wildcats. And after all, isn't war a team effort indeed? I say no mercy to the enemy, with these classic dogfight situations. Your own team should strive for every possible advantage :grin:

Humans are more unpredictable although they are also often easily predicted. It just varies that much more.

It also depends on the type of pilots you're flying against and what the crowd is like. I know three or four people who have the gunnery abilities that outreach what the Ace AI can do. I've seen dozens who shoot far worse than the Rookie AI. The range in humans is that much greater.

I would echo the sentiment when you get a great team thing going. I've been there... I remember quite clearly a group of four of us flying on Warclouds years back with FW190D-9s. We spotted a furball ahead, lined our formation up and swept through line abreast shooting at whatever Spitfire or Mustang was in our general path. We regrouped back at our original altitude and two minutes later we swept through again. A trail of Allied fighter debris was left in our wake... devastatingly effective and completely reliant on our team tactics. Any time a Spitfire would try and lock on to the formation the rest of the team would re-position for a shot. No matter where he would try and turn away from there would always be a FW190 with a firing solution.

That was awesome and it was all the more apparent what would happen where you would avoid the dogfight and instead focus on the hit and run where the other guy may not even see you and even if he did there was someone else right there to shoot at him.

[Laurwin]

Indeed. As it often happens online, 2 average pilots can fairly easily defeat one il-2 pro player.

This brings to my mind what was said about la5fn vs focke a4-5

Why did you guys mostly agree that la5fn is best at lower alt, vs focke wulf keep in mind?

What ive heard, is that la5fn is a top tier russian fighter (only worse than kingcobra and la7)

Best speed for la5fn comes at medium alt 5km, this altitude focke wulf engine power also diminishes.

Perhaps reason for failure with this lavochin is simly low alt turn and burn, and weaker russian team tactics usually.

[JtD]

It can't dive well enough, and it is slower at high altitude than a Fw 190. Which means if you meet a Fw and you have the altitude advantage, it enters a shallow dive and you can't follow. Essentially, it is safe. On the other hand, if you get caught at a disadvantage, you cannot run away, you'll have to fight it out. And this means some low speed turning, as at high speed, you cannot outmanoeuvre a Fw. And survival at low speed turns is pretty much depending on the skills of your opponent, and luck to some extent. There's no way skillful turning will save you every time.

[MaxGunz]

There is or at least were at least 2 good sites that gave translations of Russian Ace's accounts of the war that shed a lot of light on how things went. It was by far more than just a simple matching of performance figures like war buffs so often play with copies of Jane's books.

Find the story of the creation of USAAF Fighter Command and the change that made for USAAF fighter pilots. Germany had no Fighter Command and I don't know about Russia. Galland had stated post-war that the lack of a dedicated Fighter Command type structure is one of the reasons Germany lost the Air War. That bit of doctrine, and who had it, made a big difference.

Fly low over your side's flak or low over the other side's. IRL it made a difference, in game we don't get such concentrations as there were.

There were many factors that good mission design can begin to simulate.

I was watching a documentary made in 1945 that told how the USAAF fighter relay system worked. On long runs only 10% of the fighters covered the bombers at any one time if they made the connection which sometimes weather did not permit. People who only go by relative numbers sortied have been telling for years how the USAAF escorts outnumbered the LW for so long, it was only true near the end when the LW became unable to achieve the local superiority which they had been used to. Even when the USAAF did get superiority their pilots were often 3+ hours flying to get to the combat while the LW pilots were fresh. Again, raw numbers and performance comparisons don't tell much of the real story.

As a pilot/bombardier of that war used to say at the Delphi FSF, he didn't feel sorry because "they started it".