Take off problems

[Blackadder]

I am a rookie so am taking things easy. I am not using complex engine management and am just trying to learn how to fly properly and take out the biplanes effectively before I go and get involved in the campaigns.

I can fly well enough when I start in mid air for free flight or dogfight mode but my problem comes when I start from the ground.

The same thing happens every time. I take off with flaps down, I then retract the landing gear and hold steady as I start to climb. Then at about 1000 feet (maybe less) my RPM cuts out and I crash into the ground.

I have complex engine management off so I imagine that means that the game is taking care of all the engine cooling and prop pitch settings. The fact that I never run into any engine trouble when starting from the air suggests as well that that is the case.


Any idea why my engine dies like that every time I take off?

[kristorf]

What aircraft are you flying??

Also, if its a Spit or Hurri you shouldn't have the flaps down.

[Blackadder]

I am flying a hurricane.

Thanks for the flaps tip.

[grawl]

Maybe your engine is overheating. The radiator is probably closed by default when you start from the ground, and opened when you start in mid-air.

I think you still have to manage the radiators unless the difficulty option Engine Overheating is disabled.

[Continu0]

Also do not climb too hard. When you are climbing too hard, you stall. Also the engine will overheat because cooling becomes worse...

[Plt Off JRB Meaker]

Your flying the Hurricane right? ok,my guess is your stalling,on take off,don't climb too quickly,allow your RPM and speed to build up before making any manouvres,up or sideways.

You need your speed on take off to reach at least 90mph before leaving the ground,and as you do,don't climb too fast,build up your speed in a gradual controlled manner so that you don't bleed off the energy you have just gained.

Actually,with all respect to the others,I do take off with flaps down,but only about two stages down on the marker,just before the '20' mark(see flaps marker gauge on right hand side of cockpit,same area as landing gear lever).

A little bit of flaps will give the aircraft lift on take off,and you won't need so much of the runway to take off from.

But energy is king here,it's your speed that's letting you down for sure,I'm convinced.

[Osprey]

Wise words here.

Blackadder, if you like the Hurricane then come and fly with us since we have the largest gathering of Hurricane pilots in COD so we'll certainly be able to help you. Both Meaker and Kristorf are both members of ACG.

See here:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=334267&postcount=5

Hope to see you online

[Sokol1]

Osprey,

How you deal with the Hurricane tendency to roll right into level flight?

Sokol1

[Osprey]

I bank it left. There is no aileron trim in the Hurricane, IRL the pilot would have a fly about and then tell the ground crew his experience and they would dope some broad chord to the trailing upper edge of one of the ailerons in order to upset it's lifting properties. He would then take it for another flight. - The ultimate field mod ;-)

[redxfred]

SOKOL1: To stabilize a rolling tendency in an airplane with ailerons that are not moving, such as during "hands off", wings level flight, adjust the rudder trim. Observe the turn & slip indicator and add rudder trim until the slip indicator is centered. This will remove the rolling tendency until you change a control element like pitch, bank, power, or prop. CLoD has a great cheat in the "T" key, which will center the rudder trim for you.

This gets to be a nuisance during constantly changing attitude or power, so get it close with the trim and then use your feet on the rudder pedals to adjust as necessary to center the slip indicator. Since many slip indicators look like a tiny ball suspended in fluid, the common term, "step on the ball", is the memory aid for which rudder to apply. (i.e. if the ball is off center to the right, step on the right rudder until it centers). If you have no pedals, you can try the rudder keyboard controls, but you will have a distinct disadvantage in a fighter plane.

I have the rudder trim assigned to an axis knob on my throttle controller, but it is very sensitive and requires practice to master. The rudder is a wonderful thing and is well worth spending a little time on the web to study all the things it can control.

[Blackadder]

Thanks for the advice. I will check out the theories. I have the radiator set to be controlled by a rotary on my throttle yet when I move it the radiator setting does not change which may mean that the cpu is taking control of it. If not then it isn't registering for some reason.

Stalling sounds like the prime suspect which would be surprising as I am not pulling back that hard.

[Sokol1]

SOKOL1: To stabilize a rolling tendency in an airplane with ailerons that are not moving, such as during "hands off", wings level flight, adjust the rudder trim. Observe the turn & slip indicator and add rudder trim until the slip indicator is centered.


I know about trim, the problem is that is "impossible" do level flight in Hurricane with turn & slip centered, you need apply a considerable rudder trim to left (-2.8 degree slip) to minimize right roll tendency - in level fly and constant power. And if you go "hands off" he start roll again...

Sokol1

[redxfred]

We can trim the Hurricane for coordinated straight and level flight, but without an autopilot or "Wing leveler", it will naturally "Upset" and start a turn after a while. This is a design characteristic of all high performance airplanes which enables them to roll more rapidly than stable trainer types. You just have to constantly fly the plane.

You should never have to fly around in a slip... that's like flying sideways all the time. It almost sounds like your aileron control is causing an uncommanded roll. You could try unplugging your joystick, then trimming it up with the keyboard commands only. If that works for straight and level flight, you may have a joystick problem. Good luck.

[redxfred]

I am a rookie so am taking things easy. I am not using complex engine management and am just trying to learn how to fly properly and take out the biplanes effectively before I go and get involved in the campaigns.

I can fly well enough when I start in mid air for free flight or dogfight mode but my problem comes when I start from the ground.

The same thing happens every time. I take off with flaps down, I then retract the landing gear and hold steady as I start to climb. Then at about 1000 feet (maybe less) my RPM cuts out and I crash into the ground.

I have complex engine management off so I imagine that means that the game is taking care of all the engine cooling and prop pitch settings. The fact that I never run into any engine trouble when starting from the air suggests as well that that is the case.


Any idea why my engine dies like that every time I take off?

You can eliminate the overheat as a cause by selecting "Temperature effect OFF" on the realism menu. A crash after takeoff with a good engine almost has to be a stall. Reducing pitch and increasing airspeed will do the trick.

[SlipBall]

Thanks for the advice. I will check out the theories. I have the radiator set to be controlled by a rotary on my throttle yet when I move it the radiator setting does not change which may mean that the cpu is taking control of it. If not then it isn't registering for some reason.

Stalling sounds like the prime suspect which would be surprising as I am not pulling back that hard.


Learning to use the gauges would help you very much

[ATAG_Dutch]

The same thing happens every time. I take off with flaps down, I then retract the landing gear and hold steady as I start to climb. Then at about 1000 feet (maybe less) my RPM cuts out and I crash into the ground.

I have complex engine management off so I imagine that means that the game is taking care of all the engine cooling and prop pitch settings. The fact that I never run into any engine trouble when starting from the air suggests as well that that is the case.


Any idea why my engine dies like that every time I take off?

With CEM off, the airscrew or propeller automatically goes to coarse pitch almost immediately after take-off. This is why your rpm reduces significantly. There is no need to worry about the drop in rpm. But, that doesn't explain why you're falling out of the sky. Flap is not needed for take-off by the way, although it helps get off the ground with the terrible acceleration of the DH5-20 props. However, your airspeed will be lower with flaps down, so if you're pulling back on the stick and raising flaps without enough airspeed, you're stalling through lack of lift. One of the easiest mistakes to make is to simply pull back on the stick expecting to climb, without anywhere near enough airspeed. Take off with no flaps, and as soon as your wheels are up, level off and allow your airspeed to increase to 140mph. As your airspeed increases, you will start to climb quite naturally, with no need to pull on the stick. Pulling on the stick is a bad thing to do when climbing. Your forward speed will eventually generate enough lift in order to climb, as long as you give it time. These early WWII aircraft aren't rocket boosted jet propelled missiles, although sometimes, when up against E4/Ns, I wish they were. :).

[Osprey]

Wise words Dutch. Blackadder, drop into our Teamspeak one evening and we'll have you battering Jerry in no time. :)

www.aircombatgroup.co.uk

[Blackadder]

It was the stall issue after all. I took up but stayed above the rooftops until I got to about 200mph and I started to climb with no problem. I think it was because I had previously played battle of britain 2 WoV with the 150% engine power option ticked. I expected more of the Hurricane than she could really give, lol.


When I am any good I will look to join the ATAG multiplayer. I love watching the server videos on youtube but at the moment I am too rubbish, I want to at least do the redux campaign first.

[Plt Off JRB Meaker]

It was the stall issue after all. I took up but stayed above the rooftops until I got to about 200mph and I started to climb with no problem. I think it was because I had previously played battle of britain 2 WoV with the 150% engine power option ticked. I expected more of the Hurricane than she could really give, lol.


When I am any good I will look to join the ATAG multiplayer. I love watching the server videos on youtube but at the moment I am too rubbish, I want to at least do the redux campaign first.

Glad you nailed you're take off issue 'Blackie',thought it had to be this,this issue used to plague my take offs,much to my embarrassment,lol,until I realised where I was going wrong,and this is what prompted me to answer your thread.

I was lucky though my flying skills were polished up by joining a virtual Squadron at www.aircombatgroup.co.uk.

If you want to do likewise,as Osprey has informed you,just drop into our comms on Teamspeak one evening and have a chat with us,or pop into our forum,introduce yourself and we'll help you out the matey,don't be shy,the accent is on having fun :grin:

Your skills will enhance a lot quicker flying with a group such as ours than to try and do it all on your own,trust me.

I fly with 501 Squadron,as does Osprey who also commented on here,and we'd be more than happy for you to join our party,at ACG we have our very own server just like ATAG where you're get to fly in online Campaigns and nightly sorties.

Get yourself involved mate you'll love it;)

[Blackadder]

Cheers mate, I will get myself a microphone and join the forum.

How many times a week do you fly missions?

I take it you fly with full CEM on the servers? (I have never attempted this in either CoD or Bob2)


I notice you have a warthog, I have recently set mine up and am trying out Bayne's settings. Do you use Bayne's or have your own one?

[Plt Off JRB Meaker]

Fly when your own time allows you to basically mate;),you'll always find some guys on during the evenings,normally 19.00hrs GMT onwards,and at weekends it gets much more busier obviously.

Flying with CEM is a must,as it is with most of the serious flying servers,so it's best you get started with that asap IMO.It might be a bit difficult to start with,but I can assure you,you'll soon get the hang of it,and it's very rewarding when you finally master it.

I use my own settings on the Warthog always have done,you'll find it easier to remember the controls if you do this to be honest:)

[Blackadder]

I tried out the complex engine management this afternoon using the solo flight training mission. I was able to take off and fly about no problem, I didn't get that high but I got an understanding of how it all works.


I then went to do the redux campaign (I use the team fusion mod) and in the first mission I start warmed up on the ground. I have all the CEM settings the same as the solo flight but instead of a good take off which I can achieve in solo flight, this happens.

1) The plane crashes nose down as soon as I pick up real speed
2) Sometimes I will go nose down from stand still as soon as I apply throttle
3) Sometimes I am at full throttle and still do not move.

Strangely my attempts to take off all seem to end in one of those despite doing the same thing as the solo. I even went back to solo to test and I took off yet after about 15 attempts I did not take off in the campaign.


The campaign plane is also a hurricane but it may be a different version because in the solo flight the plane only has 2 prop pitch settings while the campaign one goes in 10% increments when I increase/decrease.

At first I though there was something blocking my wheels causing me to go nose down but there is not. Any idea why take off is so tough? The overwhelming nose down tendency caused me to destroy the blade 90% of the time, other times the plane would not move at all. All with the same amount of mixture, radiator, prop pitch, throttle, rudder, etc I used in the solo flight.

I thought it might be a team fusion thing but then my solo flight hurricane would be affected. Maybe it is that the hurricane in the campaign is different but even so it feels like a completely different plane in the campaign.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Hiya mate.

Some missions spawn with the brakes on and you have to dab the brake button to unlock 'em. Make sure you have a button on your joystick assigned to 'toggle wheel brakes', and just make a habit of dabbing them each time you spawn. The nosing over on take-off is something that happens even to us old hands if we're not concentrating. It usually means you're going a bit too fast. Try holding very slight back pressure on the the stick, and as the tail comes up holding it, and you should lift off naturally at about 85-90mph. Hope this helps. :)

P.S. the difference in pitch control is that you are now in the 'constant speed' Rotol prop version, which is actually much easier to manage. For take-off have it in fully fine pitch, with rpms at 3000 for take-off. As soon as you're up, and the gear is up, dial it down to around 2600-2700rpm, set radiator at 50%, or 'normal' if you look down and to the left at the in-cockpit indicator. She'll fly at these settings fine until you run out of fuel. :)

[Osprey]

Blackadder. Get a headset and jump into our Teamspeak when you next fly. Happy to help you out - it's easier to see the problem by flying alongside. European evenings are best, particularly Sundays.

http://www.aircombatgroup.co.uk/teamspeak.php

(might not have a password, I forget)

[Blackadder]

Thanks Dutch. That was the issue in the end and the last big one I have had so far :) I have had a good couple of days flying the redux campaign, going from take off to landing in the hanger using CEM and having a blast.

I am learning the hurricane well but I have a couple of questions.

1) When would you use the "boost cut out"?

2) I have been trying to follow radio vectors, when I get say "home base vector 300" and I use the directional gyro to go to 300 and it ends up being the wrong direction. How should I interpret vectors?



Osprey: I have a speedlink microphone on order. Do you use the "team fusion" mod for your server?

[ATAG_Dutch]

1) When would you use the "boost cut out"?

2) I have been trying to follow radio vectors, when I get say "home base vector 300" and I use the directional gyro to go to 300 and it ends up being the wrong direction. How should I interpret vectors?

Osprey: I have a speedlink microphone on order. Do you use the "team fusion" mod for your server?

I'm sure Osprey won't mind me saying that the ACG server does run the TF 3.01 mod.

I'm not familiar with the campaign you're flying, so I'm not sure which specific aircraft you're flying either. :)

But, you only need the 'boost cutout' function if you're flying a 100octane fuelled Hurricane. Usually, maximum 'boost', i.e. your throttle setting, is limited to +6.25lbs of boost. When you fly a 100oct Hurri, you can flick the boost cutout switch, and 'push the throttle through the gate' to achieve +11lbs boost. This should be considered for emergency use only. To be honest, I very rarely use it, even in close combat. It's only effective under 15,000ft too (Osprey may correct me here, coz I'm more of a Spitty pilot than a Hurri pilot, but it's the same engine).

As to vectors, you have to set up both your compass and Gyro on the ground before you take off. They are never automatically set, so you've probably been going in the wrong direction because of this. There are tutorial videos on youtube telling you how to do this. It's too difficult to describe in words without pictures I'm afraid. I did a tutorial myself some time ago, but cleared it out of my youtube channel. Maybe I shouldn't have. Good Luck!!

Edit: Here's one, although the chap actually sets his Gyro to 295, not 275 as he says, but it should give you the idea. The important part is to line up North on the outer compass ring up with the 'T' shaped end of the bar, read off the heading against the dash straight ahead, and set your Gyro to this heading. Then your Gyro is showing the correct magnetic direction. Bear in mind that magnetic north is ten degrees west of geometric north on your map. You'll need to reset your Gyro with your compass periodically, as it 'drifts', just as they did for real.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTRC0sY67Pg

[Osprey]

No worries Dutch. The Storm of War server is up to TF301 yes. Regarding the BCC, the Hurricane is almost the same to operate as the Spitfire, same engine and fuel.

Quite simply the merlin could only achieve 6.25lbs boost @SL to the full throttle height on 87 octane fuel. With 100 octane it could manage 17lbs @SL, but this knackered the engine fast so it was restricted firstly by a Boost cutout control (BCC) plus other modification. This limited the normal full throttle to 6.25lbs unless you pulled the BCC and went full power, and got 12lbs boost. Since boost falls with height this is therefore only achievable to the FTH (Full throttle height) which is documented, can't remember off hand. The point is that it's useful below 15kft or so and for hard climbs. It does strain the enjoy though so keep the temps down.

We can teach you all this mate.

[redxfred]

I tried out the complex engine management this afternoon using the solo flight training mission. I was able to take off and fly about no problem, I didn't get that high but I got an understanding of how it all works.


I then went to do the redux campaign (I use the team fusion mod) and in the first mission I start warmed up on the ground. I have all the CEM settings the same as the solo flight but instead of a good take off which I can achieve in solo flight, this happens.

1) The plane crashes nose down as soon as I pick up real speed
2) Sometimes I will go nose down from stand still as soon as I apply throttle
3) Sometimes I am at full throttle and still do not move.

Strangely my attempts to take off all seem to end in one of those despite doing the same thing as the solo. I even went back to solo to test and I took off yet after about 15 attempts I did not take off in the campaign.


The campaign plane is also a hurricane but it may be a different version because in the solo flight the plane only has 2 prop pitch settings while the campaign one goes in 10% increments when I increase/decrease.

At first I though there was something blocking my wheels causing me to go nose down but there is not. Any idea why take off is so tough? The overwhelming nose down tendency caused me to destroy the blade 90% of the time, other times the plane would not move at all. All with the same amount of mixture, radiator, prop pitch, throttle, rudder, etc I used in the solo flight.

I thought it might be a team fusion thing but then my solo flight hurricane would be affected. Maybe it is that the hurricane in the campaign is different but even so it feels like a completely different plane in the campaign.

B/A, one thing that may help to prevent a lot of takeoff problems is to establish a routine pre-flight procedure. There are lots of them out there, ranging from "Kick the Tires and Light the Fires" up to historically correct flight manual procedures. I personally like to start the engine right away with the radiator open, then, while the engine is warming up, use the time to:

-Set the two gun sight adjustments
-Set the course indicator and DI (Compass on the instrument panel)
-Operate the brakes and observe the brake gauge for released condition
-Set the elevator trim one unit nose down on the gauge
-Set the altimeter to field elevation if you choose to.

By then, the Merlin is close to, if not fully warmed up and you won't burn up the motor on takeoff. No time wasted and no adjustments necessary during and after takeoff! How many of us have blackened the windscreen because we missed that stupid radiator lever!